THE CHURCH

[Helen]

Good one @Enoch111 Well said.
Sounds very 'Watchman Nee' ... :)

 

[FHII]

And that all ended when,

Luk_16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

because at Pentecost, when His spirit was poured out, it was nor the time for men to be Led by His Spirit.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

and the Israelites where led by a cloud by day and column of fire by night.. is it you need to see to believe..

I am fully ready to discuss those verses. Yet you didn't take me up on my challenge.

Yes, the LAW and the PROPHETS ceased when John was done. Grace and truth came by Jesus. And Jesus sent men out to carry on. He sent men to preach about him. Men pressed into the kingdom beyond Jesus's ministry because men like Peter, Paul, John and James brought the HS to them.

If the Holy Spirit was going to do it all himself, why did Jesus send men?

"because at Pentecost, when His spirit was poured out, it was nor the time for men to be Led by His Spirit."

Well, you got a slight typo in there so I am not sure what you are getting at.

Sure the HS was there, but he didn't guide everyone, did he? It still needed Peter to preach what I believe to be the single greatest sermon since Christ preached.

"1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Well yea. That was FIRST John. What's the point of writing 2nd and 3rd John as well as Revelation after that if the Holy Spirit teaches all things?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever so why have a Bible at all if the HS is going to zap us with all teaching?

quick question:. Ischmael had 12 sons. Name them. Can you without peaking? Where was the Holy Spirit?

What you don't acknowledge is how the Holy Spirit teaches you. Sometimes., Most of the time... He does it through others.

Did you really know that Ischmael had 12 sons or through the HS are you learning it through me? And do you realize these 12 sons effect us today?

"and the Israelites where led by a cloud by day and column of fire by night.. is it you need to see to believe"

Well gosh... I thought Moses was leading them. Yeah, they followed the cloud and pillar... But there was a man leading them and God got pretty pissed off when some rebelled.

You want to press that? Why... God, even God... Had it In his mind to kill them all! Moses backed God down and the Man of God. The preacher.. saved them.

Now that I have discussed your verses, care to address mine?

 

[mjrhealth]

I am fully ready to discuss those verses. Yet you didn't take me up on my challenge.

Yes, the LAW and the PROPHETS ceased when John was done. Grace and truth came by Jesus. And Jesus sent men out to carry on. He sent men to preach about him. Men pressed into the kingdom beyond Jesus's ministry because men like Peter, Paul, John and James brought the HS to them.

If the Holy Spirit was going to do it all himself, why did Jesus send men?

"because at Pentecost, when His spirit was poured out, it was nor the time for men to be Led by His Spirit."

Well, you got a slight typo in there so I am not sure what you are getting at.

Sure the HS was there, but he didn't guide everyone, did he? It still needed Peter to preach what I believe to be the single greatest sermon since Christ preached.

"1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

Well yea. That was FIRST John. What's the point of writing 2nd and 3rd John as well as Revelation after that if the Holy Spirit teaches all things?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever so why have a Bible at all if the HS is going to zap us with all teaching?

quick question:. Ischmael had 12 sons. Name them. Can you without peaking? Where was the Holy Spirit?

What you don't acknowledge is how the Holy Spirit teaches you. Sometimes., Most of the time... He does it through others.

Did you really know that Ischmael had 12 sons or through the HS are you learning it through me? And do you realize these 12 sons effect us today?

"and the Israelites where led by a cloud by day and column of fire by night.. is it you need to see to believe"

Well gosh... I thought Moses was leading them. Yeah, they followed the cloud and pillar... But there was a man leading them and God got pretty pissed off when some rebelled.

You want to press that? Why... God, even God... Had it In his mind to kill them all! Moses backed God down and the Man of God. The preacher.. saved them.

Now that I have discussed your verses, care to address mine?

Which part, It was not Jesus that did the Pastor thing, that was from the hold testament, Jesus never built churches they had assemblies, believers that gathered together, no one was ever meant to be in Charge, which was what Jesus was telling them. The closest any ever got to that was the Quakers, who gathered and waited for the Holy Spirit, and if one prophesied another would interpret, if another had a word it was given ,all as when Led by the Spirit, if you ever want to know how you will never know if you dont ask Christ, it is not something any man can teach you, You hear His voice than you will know.

Mat_4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

1Jn_4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The first time I ever heard the Holy Spirit, I was 17 just finished Mass in a catholic church.,' There is something wrong with all of this". No I did not know who it was, but I knew my life was about to change and it did, left the catholic church that day, never looked back.

There are things that no man can teach you and only Christ can show you, but that takes faith.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus never built churches they had assemblies...

If Jesus said "I will build MY CHURCH" it follows that He also established the local assemblies in the various cities (through the apostles and their companions). Indeed, in Revelation 1-3, each church and every person assembled within that church is DIRECTLY AND PERSONALLY accountable to Christ.

Christ is not only the Head of the Church -- His Body -- but the Head of each and every assembly where born again believers gather to worship. That does not exclude the Holy Spirit at all, since the triune Godhead works in perfect harmony.

 

[mjrhealth]

If Jesus said "I will build MY CHURCH" it follows that He also established the local assemblies in the various cities (through the apostles and their companions). Indeed, in Revelation 1-3, each church and every person assembled within that church is DIRECTLY AND PERSONALLY accountable to Christ.

Christ is not only the Head of the Church -- His Body -- but the Head of each and every assembly where born again believers gather to worship. That does not exclude the Holy Spirit at all, since the triune Godhead works in perfect harmony.

Ye thats what the hJW's tell me and they are the only right one, oh thats right the catholics do the same and the SDA and so on and so on.

Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
Act 7:50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

and JEsus said it must not be so

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

 

[FHII]

Which part, It was not Jesus that did the Pastor thing, that was from the hold testament, Jesus never built churches they had assemblies, believers that gathered together, no one was ever meant to be in Charge, which was what Jesus was telling them. The closest any ever got to that was the Quakers, who gathered and waited for the Holy Spirit, and if one prophesied another would interpret, if another had a word it was given ,all as when Led by the Spirit, if you ever want to know how you will never know if you dont ask Christ, it is not something any man can teach you, You hear His voice than you will know.

Mat_4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

1Jn_4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The first time I ever heard the Holy Spirit, I was 17 just finished Mass in a catholic church.,' There is something wrong with all of this". No I did not know who it was, but I knew my life was about to change and it did, left the catholic church that day, never looked back.

There are things that no man can teach you and only Christ can show you, but that takes faith.

That's not true. Jesus was in charge! When they assembled they were having Church. he left 12 in charge when he left. I see you have no interest in addressing the verses I gave you which clearly show that there is a God ordained structure so I will let it rest.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I guess you are not of the truth...

Lol...not that kind of "truth"

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Golly you are a miserable negative thing...who spat in your cereal.

Of course the Lord speaks to us..( well obviously not to you!!)
His Name is The Word of God.. 1 John 1:14 "And The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.."

The Lord did not tell his friend he was a brick.
If this was called deluded fantasy forum then we could entertain that.
God is not audibly speaking to anyone today on earth...nobody

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Joh_18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

I guess you are not of the truth...

Soooo...you heard him speak to your friend also, and lot's others around the globe heard it too?

Every time someone says Jesus spoke to them, you're obligated to believe them? And if you don't, you're not of the truth? And if we don't, we're not of the truth?

Not at all. Telling someone they are not of the truth up above is absurd and uncalled for. Your suggestion isn't close to truth.

Careful, you better believe everything everyone says because moment by moment you're in jeopardy of not being "of the truth" any longer.

Or perhaps for those who adhere to sound doctrine, and are living sober-minded, we know that the voice is what Jesus spoke in the word, while on earth, contained now in the Scriptures we have, and that in hearing this and his message we are of the truth. It doesn't mean having to believe someone who says Jesus told him he's a brick. Or she. Or whomever.

 

[Helen]

The Lord did not tell his friend he was a brick.
If this was called deluded fantasy forum then we could entertain that.
God is not audibly speaking to anyone today on earth...nobody

You scoff in your ignorance.
Maybe 'bible speak' is "deluded fantasy" to you. You must be a literalist.

If Jesus can tell someone that they will be a pillar in His Temple...obviously he can tell someone they are a 'brick' in His Temple.

REV 3:12 " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. "

 

[H. Richard]

I understand what you are saying and I sympathize with those who are fed up with the Churches they have attended and clearly do it wrong. I wrote to Nancy alittle about that.

But if you are going to simply read the Bible in your walk with God, how much of it are you going to believe and follow? Some of it or all of it? No, we are not under the law... Though it's still the truth. That's not where I am going.

So you know where I am going with this. If you are going to go by the Bible, what will you do when it talks about hearing (not reading:. God knows the difference and he said hearing)? What will you do with the verses that say to literally assemble? What will you do when God through Paul said he gave a ministry for the perfecting of the saints? Sure, the HS leads us into all truth, but did you notice he is left out in those verses in Eph 4?

So I submit to you that if all you are going to do is read the Bible and relying on the HS to teach you, then you are rebelling against the very words you are reading.

There is something else . We are talking about only a small portion of what happens in a proper Church. We are talking about knowledge and guidance. We haven't discussed praising him as a body, giving, being in one mind and one Accord or simply that God wants his family to be together.

So what goes through your mind when you read something like Hebrews 10:25 or Romans 13? Is the HS telling you to ignore those verses? What do you do when you read in 2 Timothy Paul lamenting about those who left or erred but then enouraging Timothy to keep teaching and training others to teach?

Again, I understand all who are dissatisfied with Churches. Is the problem the plan or it's execution?

Bottom line is that God's plan includes Churches. I don't see where he gave a plan B.

Again I say that Jesus did not come to die on a cross so that man could have a new or improved religion.

What you have said is trying to support man organized religious churches. You can support them if you wish but as for me the Gospel of Grace is for everyone, even those that do not have a church relationship. God's grace is not limited to those in a church organization. The simple gospel of grace is that the Son Of God (Jesus) died on a cross to shed His blood to pay for the sins of everyone. If a person believe that Jesus died to pay for their sins that person is giving glory to God's Son and will be saved. It has nothing to do with a person being in a man organized religious church.

Religious people seem to forget that Jesus saved Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus even when he was persecuting those that believed in Him. God's grace is more powerful that man's sins. But I understand that most do not want to recognize that The Holy Spirit is alive and well in this age.

If salvation is only given to those who hear then that leaves out the deaf doesn't it. God's word is in the scriptures and it seems we disagree that it has to be heard to save a person. To me that is irrational. If God had not left us with His word in print we would all be in the RCC.

Today there are millions in churches and everyone in them thinks they are saved because they are there. No man can convince me that I have to be in a church and listen to a man telling me what God wants me to do in order to be saved. If I listen to them I will be in the lake of fire. The world hungers for God but the devil gives it an apostate religion that man has to do things to complete their salvation. It is man's work centered and it only gives lip service to what God (Jesus) did on the cross. If they really placed their faith in His work they would be praising God and not thinking they are sinless because of their works.

Only Paul gave us the Gospel of grace. Before grace it was all about man's works for salvation. But under grace it is all about what God has done. When I hear sermons and teachings that are based on the four gospels and the O.T. I turn them off. God's grace is only found in Paul's epistles. All scriptures are given for our learning but not all are too us under grace.

 

[Helen]

Again I say that Jesus did not come to die on a cross so that man could have a new or improved religion.

What you have said is trying to support man organized religious churches. You can support them if you wish but as for me the Gospel of Grace is for everyone, even those that do not have a church relationship. God's grace is not limited to those in a church organization. The simple gospel of grace is that the Son Of God (Jesus) died on a cross to shed His blood to pay for the sins of everyone. If a person believe that Jesus died to pay for their sins that person is giving glory to God's Son and will be saved. It has nothing to do with a person being in a man organized religious church.

Religious people seem to forget that Jesus saved Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus even when he was persecuting those that believed in Him. God's grace is more powerful that man's sins. But I understand that most do not want to recognize that The Holy Spirit is alive and well in this age.

If salvation is only given to those who hear then that leaves out the deaf doesn't it. God's word is in the scriptures and it seems we disagree that it has to be heard to save a person. To me that is irrational. If God had not left us with His word in print we would all be in the RCC.

Today there are millions in churches and everyone in them thinks they are saved because they are there. No man can convince me that I have to be in a church and listen to a man telling me what God wants me to do in order to be saved. If I listen to them I will be in the lake of fire. The world hungers for God but the devil gives it an apostate religion that man has to do things to complete their salvation. It is man's work centered and it only gives lip service to what God (Jesus) did on the cross. If they really placed their faith in His work they would be praising God and not thinking they are sinless because of their works.

Only Paul gave us the Gospel of grace. Before grace it was all about man's works for salvation. But under grace it is all about what God has done. When I hear sermons and teachings that are based on the four gospels and the O.T. I turn them off. God's grace is only found in Paul's epistles. All scriptures are given for our learning but not all are too us under grace.

Amen.
I have been wondering where you were...you seem to have been MIA.
Glad that you 'popped in'.

 

[H. Richard]

That's not true. Jesus was in charge! When they assembled they were having Church. he left 12 in charge when he left. I see you have no interest in addressing the verses I gave you which clearly show that there is a God ordained structure so I will let it rest.

All most are doing is having a scripture battle. The truth is that all the 12 were doing is trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus so He could come back and set up their kingdom. No where did they preach the work of the cross as a gift from God because it took away the sins of the world.

Peter said the cross was something to repent of

Paul said the cross is something to boast about.

Religious people just can't get it through their head that God no longer approves of a works based religion since He has shown the world His grace that saves based on His work on the cross. Nor is he trying to get the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah and king any longer. That has been set aside until after the tribulations. God has now reached out to the whole world with His grace as shown on the cross.

 

[FHII]

What you have said is trying to support man organized religious churches

I do no such thing. I have given verses that show that God wants his believers on Earth to assemble under leadership. Organized religious Churches may like those verses and may use them. But just because they do use those verses doesn't make those verses wrong.

There may be a million Churches and they all may be wrong. I am supporting the one or two that are doing it right.

Richard, you are not going to find a more adamant believer in Grace on this board than myself. What does that have to do with going to Church? Are you saying a Church cannot preach the truth about Grace? Are you saying if someone goes to Church they are not under the covenant of Grace?

No man can convince me that I have to be in a church and listen to a man telling me what God wants me to do in order to be saved.

Appearently not even Paul. Here is what that Grace preacher whom we both know and love had to say:

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That's Paul! That's the very same man who said, " by grace ye are saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any should boast.".

So are you going to listen and believe Paul when he's talking about Grace but ignore him when he's talking about Churches and preachers?

So no man can convince you that you need a preacher and Church to be saved? Well if Jesus can't convince you and Paul can't convince can't convince you then I will not be able to either.

Furthermore since you have shown no interest in directly addressing the verses I have brought up concerning this subject, I will no longer discuss it with you.

You are a good man, Richard. I look forward to discussing other topics with you. But I disagree with you and won't bother with this topic again ( with you).

 

[Enoch111]

Ye thats what the hJW's tell me and they are the only right one, oh thats right the catholics do the same and the SDA and so on and so on.

That has absolutely no bearing on true New Testament principles, including the doctrine of the Church and the establishment of churches. Looks like you are rather obsessed with the errors of others rather than just Bible truth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

What like this bit

1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co_3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co_6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And again - irrelevant to the conversations.

I was showing from Scripture that the Church is not the "secret" or "invisible" gaggle of disorganized, dispersed believers.
It is a VISIBLE BODY - the light of the world and the salt of the earth - a city on a hill hat cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16).

The more you post - the more you show your ignorance . . .

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"ByGrace"
[You scoff in your ignorance.]
if you want to call me names, maybe you could offer correction from scripture
[Maybe 'bible speak' is "deluded fantasy" to you. You must be a literalist.]

Bible speak??? He did not mention the bible, He said Jesus told him he could be a brick. He suggested the God of the universe took time out , with billions of people on the planet to tell this person he could be a brick???. You need to get serious BG. Here is a hint. Not everyone who posts online is posting truth.
[If Jesus can tell someone that they will be a pillar in His Temple...obviously he can tell someone they are a 'brick' in His Temple.
REV 3:12 " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.]

The difference here is this is a verse written by an Apostle and given to those in that church at that time. We can read and make application also. It is written...not spoken...ding ,ding ,ding ;)

 

[Helen]

"ByGrace"
[You scoff in your ignorance.]
if you want to call me names, maybe you could offer correction from scripture
[Maybe 'bible speak' is "deluded fantasy" to you. You must be a literalist.]

Bible speak??? He did not mention the bible, He said Jesus told him he could be a brick. He suggested the God of the universe took time out , with billions of people on the planet to tell this person he could be a brick???. You need to get serious BG. Here is a hint. Not everyone who posts online is posting truth.
[If Jesus can tell someone that they will be a pillar in His Temple...obviously he can tell someone they are a 'brick' in His Temple.
REV 3:12 " Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.]

The difference here is this is a verse written by an Apostle and given to those in that church at that time. We can read and make application also. It is written...not spoken...ding ,ding ,ding ;)

Sorry. You can rant, but it changes nothing.
Maybe you never hear the Lord speak to you...too bad for you.
You believe those times are over...too bad for you.

You don't have a Father son relationship with the Lord, too bad for you.

But you keep declaring that God did not speak it to him,changes nothing.
That is like telling a blind man that got his sight back that he still couldn't see.

" The man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with just an argument. "

 

[H. Richard]

I do no such thing. I have given verses that show that God wants his believers on Earth to assemble under leadership. Organized religious Churches may like those verses and may use them. But just because they do use those verses doesn't make those verses wrong.

There may be a million Churches and they all may be wrong. I am supporting the one or two that are doing it right.

Richard, you are not going to find a more adamant believer in Grace on this board than myself. What does that have to do with going to Church? Are you saying a Church cannot preach the truth about Grace? Are you saying if someone goes to Church they are not under the covenant of Grace?


Appearently not even Paul. Here is what that Grace preacher whom we both know and love had to say:

1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

That's Paul! That's the very same man who said, " by grace ye are saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any should boast.".

So are you going to listen and believe Paul when he's talking about Grace but ignore him when he's talking about Churches and preachers?

So no man can convince you that you need a preacher and Church to be saved? Well if Jesus can't convince you and Paul can't convince can't convince you then I will not be able to either.

Furthermore since you have shown no interest in directly addressing the verses I have brought up concerning this subject, I will no longer discuss it with you.

You are a good man, Richard. I look forward to discussing other topics with you. But I disagree with you and won't bother with this topic again ( with you).

Don't carry your ideas to the extreme. There is a time when a person who has become a child of God must teach what he/she has learned. As you have acknowledged only a few are of God. But today there are many who stand in a pulpit and preach who are not teaching the gospel of grace.

I once had a conversation with an associate pastor who after telling him what I see in the scriptures agreed with me but said he could not teach that from the pulpit because he would loss his position in the church organization and his pension. So the lies go on.

There are churches that do not preach the gospel of grace. They preach a gospel of works mixed with grace and it will not lead anyone to Christ. Why? Because that mixed gospel only makes people self-righteous and is of the Devil.

The RCC killed many who were children of God. Calvin did the same in Switzerland when he had those who were Jews and those who were catholic killed unless they left the country.. Many religious people do the same when they pour out their snake venom against another poster. The children of God will always be game for the Devil and the Devil is in many churches and on many forums. I can not turn a blind eye to it.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Sorry. You can rant, but it changes nothing.
Maybe you never hear the Lord speak to you...too bad for you.
You believe those times are over...too bad for you.

You don't have a Father son relationship with the Lord, too bad for you.

But you keep declaring that God did not speak it to him,changes nothing.
That is like telling a blind man that got his sight back that he still couldn't see.

" The man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with just an argument. "

Lol

.yeah experience trumps scripture in your world...you might drink t

Sorry. You can rant, but it changes nothing.
Maybe you never hear the Lord speak to you...too bad for you.
You believe those times are over...too bad for you.

You don't have a Father son relationship with the Lord, too bad for you.

But you keep declaring that God did not speak it to him,changes nothing.
That is like telling a blind man that got his sight back that he still couldn't see.

" The man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with just an argument. "

Lol...in your world experience trumps scripture.
In the Kingdom scripture rules. Do not drink the koolaid aid when they offer it
You are like the ones who believed Marshall Applewhite and tried to go on the comet.