THE CHURCH

[Windmill Charge]

Paul didn't set up any structures nor did he set out to plant churches. He planted Christ. God gave the increase and the rest of it.

People try going around God trying to do His work for Him. The result is dead religious "structures." These are robotic empty and lifeless.


God's way needs to be taken seriously and tried.

Then what did he intend doing with the mix of Jews and gentiles who came to faith under his preaching?
Have you not read that he appointed leaders, how he kept in touch, helping, advising, disciplining them.

As you say anything without the spirit of God in it is dead, yet God uses churches, he uses weak fraile Christians to spread the gospel.Christians similar to those in Corinth.

Where else are you going to find Christians?

 

[Episkopos]

Then what did he intend doing with the mix of Jews and gentiles who came to faith under his preaching?
Have you not read that he appointed leaders, how he kept in touch, helping, advising, disciplining them.

As you say anything without the spirit of God in it is dead, yet God uses churches, he uses weak fraile Christians to spread the gospel.Christians similar to those in Corinth.

Where else are you going to find Christians?

Paul set up leaders but not by his choice....but the Holy Spirit's.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

 

[Nancy]

I agree that nearly all believers gathered in homes and other public buildings for worship soon after Chris's departure. Although I believe that later, may be a few decades later, those that continued their worship in these buildings were ran by false teachers with believers and many fake believers in their pews or seats. Most true believers were found scattered in isolated, even obscure, hidden places and not in public view. They stayed out of the main-stream religious institutions that were and are ran today in the main by false teachers. It has not changed even today. Jesus knows where all his sheep are located. His ekklesia is always safe and they worship God without regard to the day of the week.

Bless you,

APAK

Totally agreed @APAK ,
I really do find more fellowship and growth on Christian forums...and this is my number one forum. I feel myself pulling away from all these organized "church's"...How awesome would it be to gather in our homes for worship and learning as a rule. I know these places do exist and I am asking God to lead me to one like that. The big "building" "churches", to me anyhow, seem to lack true fellowship and cohesiveness. Also seems that the mainline Churches today are in the business of filling the pews, their coffers and to "save" people. I believe the Church is to build Christians up and to send them out and GO...prepared and strengthened in the Spirit along with encouragement and help from your Church family - to be prepared to go and make disciples and preach the Gospel to ALL creatures. The Church gathering is not (IMHO) there to bring people to salvation. It is there to strengthen His children to be co-workers with God and, through His plan...GO into the world equipped with all we need. We (Christians) should be feeding on The Word during our gatherings...iow-the gatherings of Christians are not meant for the unsaved but, for the saved...preparedness!
JMHO :)

 

[Windmill Charge]

Paul set up leaders but not by his choice....but the Holy Spirit's.

Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

They were still put in place by Paul. In a group of believers organised by Paul.

 

[H. Richard]

For the most part yes. Traveling evangelists should be allowed. Also remember Paul was an Apostle and set up churches ranging from Antioch to Rome. He left locals in charge, but when Paul was in town...

And yet Paul said they had all left him.

One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.
-
2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)
-
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

So in the end, to place your faith in the teachings of others is to place it in man and that will send many to Hell.

 

[FHII]

One thing is certain from what I’ve read -- the Asian fathers largely failed to acknowledge the uniqueness of the revelation Christ gave to Paul. Why? Because, as Paul himself wrote, Asia had already turned away from him even while he was yet alive. Those in Asia were even then “turning aside unto myths.” These church “fathers,” with their compounded mythical doctrines, are only the fruit of the apostasy that began in the first century before Paul died.

Yes they did. Whose fault was it? Was it the fault of Paul? God's fault through Paul? Its a rhetorical question which is to point out that while the Jesus's teaching through Paul was sound, the Churches in Asia was stoney ground. The plan (Apostles, prophets, pastors, evenlists and teachers) is still what Paul looked to set up and it's still God's plan.

So in the end, to place your faith in the teachings of others is to place it in man and that will send many to Hell.

Sure. But are you going to place your faith in your own teaching? Of course the quick comeback is, "No, I place my faith in God's teaching" . So are you the only one God teaches or can he (better yet, DID/DOES he) place his annointing on others to teach you?

The point is that God doesn't directly teach everyone. Many people may think he directly teaches them, but 99.9% of the time they are fooling themselves. That's not saying we don't have the ability to learn on our own. But God didn't do it that way in the Bible.

Romans 10 states that faith comes by hearing and you can't hear without a preacher. It also asks how can they preacher except they are sent? Not everyone is sent, and by that not all preachers are sent.
You have to find one that is.

If you read all of 2 Timothy, Paul seems extremely concerned about those not holding to faith as well as others not in the faith. However, he encouages Timothy to keep teaching others and train others to be teachers. It seems strange then, to suggest from 2 Tim 1:15 that weshouldn't place trust in teachers when in the next chapter he tells Tim to keep teaching and train others to teach.

So I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me... But if so it would be wrong to ignore all the verses that Paul and others gave and base your doctrine on one or two verses that are clearly out of context.

Sure... Don't put your trust in a man. Put your trust in men who God put his trust in.

 

[Enoch111]

All through the Bible people that are assembled together are called a church. It is an assembly of people.

1. Yes church means assembly, and that would apply to local churches. Ideally all who assemble together would be in Christ. But that is not what is found in churches, as we see in Revelation 1-3, and all around us. There will always be wheat and tares within any assembly and only God knows who is who.

2. Church also means the Body, Bride, and Building of Christ. Those are the ones redeemed by God's grace, regenerated, and baptized into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. Again only God knows who is within this Church.

 

[mjrhealth]

Totally agreed @APAK ,
I really do find more fellowship and growth on Christian forums...and this is my number one forum. I feel myself pulling away from all these organized "church's"...How awesome would it be to gather in our homes for worship and learning as a rule. I know these places do exist and I am asking God to lead me to one like that. The big "building" "churches", to me anyhow, seem to lack true fellowship and cohesiveness. Also seems that the mainline Churches today are in the business of filling the pews, their coffers and to "save" people. I believe the Church is to build Christians up and to send them out and GO...prepared and strengthened in the Spirit along with encouragement and help from your Church family - to be prepared to go and make disciples and preach the Gospel to ALL creatures. The Church gathering is not (IMHO) there to bring people to salvation. It is there to strengthen His children to be co-workers with God and, through His plan...GO into the world equipped with all we need. We (Christians) should be feeding on The Word during our gatherings...iow-the gatherings of Christians are not meant for the unsaved but, for the saved...preparedness!
JMHO :)

The problem with "church" is it is failing to prepare the people for that day when Christ calls them out, so many have come out and dont know what to do, once they see religion for what it is, a prison, stifling there growth with Christ.

 

[FHII]

The problem with "church" is it is failing to prepare the people for that day when Christ calls them out, so many have come out and dont know what to do, once they see religion for what it is, a prison, stifling there growth with Christ.

All Churches?

 

[mjrhealth]

All Churches?

when church keeps you from Christ, when church keeps you from learning from Him and keeps you running back after men, when church keeps you agreeing to its doctrines, requiring you to sign up to join up wit hit, it is a prison. Remember what God said to Pharaoh,

Exo_9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

but the religious wont let Gods people go to serve them as just like..

Exo 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

and when Christ comes do you think the churches are going to be empty? when they wont follow after Him like the foolish virgins who wouldnt go top up there lamps, there is going to be a lot of misery as many wont be ready,

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

 

[FHII]

when church keeps you from Christ, when church keeps you from learning from Him and keeps you running back after men, when church keeps you agreeing to its doctrines, requiring you to sign up to join up wit hit, it is a prison.

Again I ask: all Churches?

It's not that I disagree with you; I agree with your overall point. I see a whole lot missing in false Churches. But it doesn't do anyone any good without defining more specifically what is missing. Then we ask again if all Churches lack this.

We still have the verses where God noted the importance a actual assembling of people with leadership.

But I ask you also what the suitable alternative is? Are we to study the Bible on our own and figure it out on our own? Do you really think that's a suitable alternative?

 

[charity]

Hello there,

The Church which is the Body of Christ, is the fulness of Him that filleth all in all (Ephesians 1:22,23). It is largely invisible to any other than God Himself, made up of individuals throughout the world, each drawing their sustenance from Him, through His Word, by His Spirit. The life of each individual is hid with Christ, in God (Colossians 3:3). They look for His appearing (2 Titus 2:13), when they too will appear with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4) .

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Nancy]

All Churches?

I know this is not directed at me FHII but...I personally do not believe that every church is that way...I see many good, scripture based Churches around here although, the bigger they are, the more many fall through the cracks it seems.

 

[H. Richard]

Yes they did. Whose fault was it? Was it the fault of Paul? God's fault through Paul? Its a rhetorical question which is to point out that while the Jesus's teaching through Paul was sound, the Churches in Asia was stoney ground. The plan (Apostles, prophets, pastors, evenlists and teachers) is still what Paul looked to set up and it's still God's plan.

Sure. But are you going to place your faith in your own teaching? Of course the quick comeback is, "No, I place my faith in God's teaching" . So are you the only one God teaches or can he (better yet, DID/DOES he) place his annointing on others to teach you?

The point is that God doesn't directly teach everyone. Many people may think he directly teaches them, but 99.9% of the time they are fooling themselves. That's not saying we don't have the ability to learn on our own. But God didn't do it that way in the Bible.

Romans 10 states that faith comes by hearing and you can't hear without a preacher. It also asks how can they preacher except they are sent? Not everyone is sent, and by that not all preachers are sent.
You have to find one that is.

If you read all of 2 Timothy, Paul seems extremely concerned about those not holding to faith as well as others not in the faith. However, he encouages Timothy to keep teaching others and train others to be teachers. It seems strange then, to suggest from 2 Tim 1:15 that weshouldn't place trust in teachers when in the next chapter he tells Tim to keep teaching and train others to teach.

So I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me... But if so it would be wrong to ignore all the verses that Paul and others gave and base your doctrine on one or two verses that are clearly out of context.

Sure... Don't put your trust in a man. Put your trust in men who God put his trust in.

I see what you are saying but I disagree that it takes a person speaking words to get another to place their faith in what the words say. The Bible contains the words of God. Hearing can mean hearing the word of God as a person reads the scriptures. Remember the gospel was not in print when Paul wrote his letters.

If you think about it the scriptures teach that only those that have faith in God will hear (or read the words in the scriptures). In my opinion it is the Holy Spirit that teaches what the scriptures are saying to A PERSON. Without His teaching the words can be made to say what the religious want them to say.

I agree that there are many that think they know what a scripture means. But where does a person put their trust to understand them, in man or is it the Holy Spirit. I personally place my faith in the fact that I am a child of God, made one by the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus said, He (THE HOLY SPIRIT) will teach me what I am to know.

That is my faith in God. I have not been left in the hands of men. I was saved at 9 years old and I have never been alone since. I am 85 years old. For many years I heard sermon after sermon in churches teaching a blended gospel of works to show faith and all it does is set up the self-righteous over those that would come to God.

I wrote about a tragic event in my life when I was about 26 years old. A man looked me up at work and said he thought I was Christian and he needed to know about becoming one. He said his Christian friends told him he had to stop sinning to be a Christian. He asked my opinion and I told him that Jesus shed His blood on a cross to pay for his sins because He loved him. That he did not have to stop sinning in the flesh to be saved. It was between him and God. A week later he killed himself. I believe this was a teaching event that the Holy Spirit taught me. Otherwise why did he come to me?

The RCC claims their Popes are of apostolic succession. The Pope is the head of their church. The protestant churches followed that by setting up men to be head of their churches. The apple did not follow to far from the tree. Religious organization are set up so that the few dictates what the majority believes. It is brain washing those who they are above.

Sorry, I got carried away there. Anyone that can set in a church and listen to the junk being preached and does not go to the scriptures to see for themselves deserve to be led astray because they don't have the time to spend in the word of God.

 

[H. Richard]

when church keeps you from Christ, when church keeps you from learning from Him and keeps you running back after men, when church keeps you agreeing to its doctrines, requiring you to sign up to join up wit hit, it is a prison. Remember what God said to Pharaoh,

Exo_9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

but the religious wont let Gods people go to serve them as just like..

Exo 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

and when Christ comes do you think the churches are going to be empty? when they wont follow after Him like the foolish virgins who wouldnt go top up there lamps, there is going to be a lot of misery as many wont be ready,

Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Keep up the good work. I once saw a painting about the rapture. There were all these ghostly figures going up from many of the windows but not a one from a tavern. A good example of the self-righteous mentality. Sad to say but I don't think there will be enough to make the news cycle for more than a day.

 

[H. Richard]

Again I ask: all Churches?

It's not that I disagree with you; I agree with your overall point. I see a whole lot missing in false Churches. But it doesn't do anyone any good without defining more specifically what is missing. Then we ask again if all Churches lack this.

We still have the verses where God noted the importance a actual assembling of people with leadership.

But I ask you also what the suitable alternative is? Are we to study the Bible on our own and figure it out on our own? Do you really think that's a suitable alternative?

FHII, Jesus once told His Disciples that they were going to Jerusalem and there He would be killed. But the 12 understood not. It is God that reveals Himself to man. God's salvation is not revealed to everyone. It is revealed when a person realizes they are sinful and are going to Hell unless God saves them. That is when a person knocks on the door of Heaven and Jesus opens it for them.

Luke 18:31-34
31 Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished.
32 For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon.
33 They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again."
34 But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

1 Cor 2:13-16
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.
16 For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
NKJV

 

[H. Richard]

Yet through out the bible people meet in organised groups, with door keepers, musians, priest, levites, deacons, bishops, etc etc etc and these organisations are approved by God.

The temple structure and organisation was arranged by God. Paul set up the structure and organised many churches.

While the organisation church we attend each sunday does not speak with the authority of God, the preacher is speaking with the authority of God, if he is not why is he there?

Why??? Because it is the tradition of churches to have a leader. Today this has gone far beyond what was intended. Today the preacher must have a degree from a Seminary school. In the 50s preachers wore the same type of cloths as everyone else. But today they have these special robes that set them apart from others. It goes back to the Pharisees.

Luke 20:46-47
46 "Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts,
47 who devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation."
NKJV

 

[CoreIssue]

The only two churches in the Bible are the local church and the totality of Saints, living and dead.

But today the majority of churches and Christians are in name only. They draw near to God with the tongues but are far away in their hearts.

While the names very there is only two positions in the church: elders and deacons.
Is there a difference in the qualifications of elders and deacons? | Bible.org

Paul condemns denominationalism. It divides the Church;

1 Corinthians 1
A Church Divided Over Leaders
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,a]">[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Ce’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephasb]">[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Within the church gifts of the Holy Spirit function to serve the Church.

1 Corinthians 12
The Kinds of Gifts
4 There are different kinds of gifts. But it is the same Holy Spirit Who gives them. 5 There are different kinds of work to be done for Him. But the work is for the same Lord. 6 There are different ways of doing His work. But it is the same God who uses all these ways in all people. 7 The Holy Spirit works in each person in one way or another for the good of all. 8 One person is given the gift of teaching words of wisdom. Another person is given the gift of teaching what he has learned and knows. These gifts are by the same Holy Spirit. 9 One person receives the gift of faith. Another person receives the gifts of healing. These gifts are given by the same Holy Spirit. 10 One person is given the gift of doing powerful works. Another person is given the gift of speaking God’s Word. Another person is given the gift of telling the difference between the Holy Spirit and false spirits. Another person is given the gift of speaking in special sounds. Another person is given the gift of telling what these special sounds mean. 11 But it is the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, Who does all these things. He gives to each person as He wants to give.

Yet we have confusion about even the gifts.

Some elevate tongues and give them new prominence and meaning. But Paul says it is the least of the gifts. Is last in the list.

I've seen some God has strongly blesses with the gift of teaching. They inspire others in unbelievable ways.

One of the most misdefined gifts is the discernment of spirits. It does not mean one becomes a lie detector.

For those who do not value study, what do they do with. "Another person is given the gift of teaching what he has learned and knows." All you for hear from them is the Holy Spirit teaches you everything. Which is not true. He helps you in learning you are required to study.

Every Saint has at least one gift.

Many think they have a gift they do not.

While it is true that there is no fool like an old fool it is also true that age and experience are of great value and elders should be respected and listen to.

But neither should youth be discounted. They are the Elders of tomorrow.

In this time of apostasy we see the Church struggling. Revelation with the seven churches lays out what is going on and where it is headed. Yet we have so-called Christians denying the truth.

The church age is growing to a close. So we must be diligent in trying to find and witness to those remaining few that God can harvest.

Just look at Democrats in Congress. They're working hard to get Christianity out of every corner of the USA.


Such as Islam is working hard to wipe every Christian and Jew from the face of the earth.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Christ's Church is . . .

ONE
John 10:16, John 17:17-23, Eph. 4:4-6, 1 Cor. 1:10, Rom. 16:17, Phil. 2:2, Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 12:13, Col. 3:15

HOLY
1 Tim. 3:15, Col. 1:18, 1 Pet. 2:9-10, Eph. 2:19-22

CATHOLIC (‘universal’ & ‘of the fullness’)
Matt. 28:18-20, Mark 16:15-16, John 14:26, John 16:12-13

APOSTOLIC
Eph. 2:19-20, Matt. 16:18-10, Luke 22:28-30, John 15:16, Matt. 28:16,18-20, John 20:21-23

A VISIBLE entity that cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14-16)

It is NOT an "invisible" gaggle of different groups teaching different doctrines based on the different beliefs of different leaders.