Calvinism is a Cult

[CoreIssue]

@Waiting on him, I acknowledge that you feel that the Bible supports Calvinism and you view such a portrayal of God as being genuinely loving & gives salvation as a gift, and the other position to be false
But that doesn't change the fact that non-Calvinists feel that the Bible supports non-Calvinism and such a portrayal of God as being genuinely loving & gives salvation as a gift, and the other position to be false.

Both camps here have the same motivations and we got to acknowledge that just to be factual.

Just as cults have their motivations.

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him, I acknowledge that you feel that the Bible supports Calvinism and you view such a portrayal of God as being genuinely loving & gives salvation as a gift, and the other position to be false
But that doesn't change the fact that non-Calvinists feel that the Bible supports non-Calvinism and such a portrayal of God as being genuinely loving & gives salvation as a gift, and the other position to be false.

Both camps here have the same motivations and we got to acknowledge that just to be factual.

There is no we. Your trying to justify ignorance with ignorance. Do you think you are of one of the camps? If so wich one?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There is no we. Your trying to justify ignorance with ignorance. Do you think you are of one of the camps? If so wich one?

There are many Calvinists on this forum that will testify that they find that view to be Biblical and a loving God. Some of these individuals include Mjr, Anthony, Dave, and yourself.
Likewise, there are many non-Calvinists on this forum that will testify that they find that view to be Biblical and a loving God. Some of these individuals include Enoch, CI, Nancy, and myself.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

CoreIssue,
[I agree with the widely held belief Calvinism is a cult.
The God of Calvinism does not resemble the God of the Bible.
The salvation of Calvinism is not biblical.]

Core issue accused Calvinists of not having a God who resembles the BIBLICAL GOD

When a biblical statement was given of the Biblical God ,Coreissue cannot back up his accusation 8 pages into the thread. let's help him out;) COREISSUE, show us here how this does not describe the biblical God,,,go over section by section and show us which portions show your belief, or better yet, reveal where you lack understanding.

Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity

1]._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself;

2]a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto;

3]who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory;

4]most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin;

5]the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )



6]._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient,

7]not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them;

8]he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things,

9]and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth;

10]in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain;

11]he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands;

12]to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

13.]In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided:

14]the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father;

15]the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being,

16]but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )

 

[Naomi25]

I apologize, people who argue free will are full of pride;they undermine the power of the Holy Spirit and promote their false humility. People who accept the teachings of Christ suffer humiliation and acknowledge they have no role in their reconciliation to God

You may be right, although I would say that those arguing for free will wouldn't see it overtly as a pride thing, but as a choice thing. The problem with that, as I see it, biblically, is that we are told, quite clearly that it cannot be 'on' us, any part, or else we would have grounds to 'boast'. If we could stand back and say, "gosh, just as well I realised how sinful I was and sought after God"....or, "sure, Jesus died for me, but I'm the one who picked...me". We start to see how that becomes problematic...especially when we consider people and their sinful natures...we want to claim glory, we want to be more than we are. Just like Eden, we want to be our own gods and not need to be totally reliant upon God.
But that's not what scripture tells us. It tells us we are. It tells us that from the moment we realise we need God to the moment he welcomes us into eternity, it is His work that gets us there. Grace. And if it is not his work, then, Paul tells us, it is not grace. And that becomes a huge problem, biblically.
So...yes...perhaps pride. That was, essentially, what caused the fall in the garden of Eden...the thought that they did not need God.

 

[farouk]

You may be right, although I would say that those arguing for free will wouldn't see it overtly as a pride thing, but as a choice thing. The problem with that, as I see it, biblically, is that we are told, quite clearly that it cannot be 'on' us, any part, or else we would have grounds to 'boast'. If we could stand back and say, "gosh, just as well I realised how sinful I was and sought after God"....or, "sure, Jesus died for me, but I'm the one who picked...me". We start to see how that becomes problematic...especially when we consider people and their sinful natures...we want to claim glory, we want to be more than we are. Just like Eden, we want to be our own gods and not need to be totally reliant upon God.
But that's not what scripture tells us. It tells us we are. It tells us that from the moment we realise we need God to the moment he welcomes us into eternity, it is His work that gets us there. Grace. And if it is not his work, then, Paul tells us, it is not grace. And that becomes a huge problem, biblically.
So...yes...perhaps pride. That was, essentially, what caused the fall in the garden of Eden...the thought that they did not need God.

I think Ephesians 2 is a good antidote to the free will way of thinking...

 

[Waiting on him]

I think Ephesians 2 is a good antidote to the free will way of thinking...

I can’t improve on that.

 

[farouk]

I can’t improve on that.

The words of Scripture say it all.

 

[Mjh29]

When a biblical statement was given of the Biblical God ,Coreissue cannot back up his accusation 8 pages into the thread. let's help him out;)

Sure, I'll pitch in ;)

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter II
Of God, and of the Holy Trinity

I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts,or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will, for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in his judgments,hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.

Deut 6:4; 1 Cor 8:4, 6, Jer 10:10; 1 Thes 1:9., Job 11:7-9; 26:14. , John 4:24. , 1 Tim 1:17. , Deut 4:15-16; John 4:24 with Luke 24:39. , Acts 14:11, 15. , Mal 3:6; James 1:17., 1 Kings 8:27; Jer 23:23-24. , Psa 90:2; 1 Tim 1:17. , Psa 145:3. ,Gen 17:1; Rev 4:8. , Rom 16:27. , Isa 6:3; Rev 4:8. , Psa 115:3. , Exod 3:14. , Eph 1:11. , Prov 16:4; Rom 11:36. , 1 John 4:8, 16., Exod 34:6-7. , Heb 11:6. , Neh 9:32-33. , Psa 5:5-6. , Exod 34:7; Nahum 1:2-3.

II. God has all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto he himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which he has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever himself pleases. In his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience he is pleased to require of them.

John 5:26. , Acts 7:2. , Psa 119:68. , Rom 9:5; 1 Tim 6:15. , Acts 17:24-25. , Job 22:2-3. , Rom 11:36. Dan 4:25, 35; 1 Tim 6:15; Rev 4:11. , Heb 4:13. , Psa 147:5; Rom 11:33-34. , Ezek 11:5; Acts 15:18. Psa 145:17; Rom 7:12. , Rev 5:12-14.

III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Mat 3:16-17; 28:19; 2 Cor 13:14; 1 John 5:7. , John 1:14, 18. , John 15:26; Gal 4:6.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, that is one side of the message. But the book of Exodus shows us the other side of the message. God only hardens the hearts of those who repeatedly and deliberately reject Him and His Word. That is what Pharaoh did. He chose Hell by mocking and blaspheming God and disdaining Moses and Aaron. Indeed, God pleads will all humanity and says: Today, if you will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

The whole tenor of the Bible is that God does not want even one sinner to perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But don't you see? This implies that our will is stronger than that of Gods. That even though he begs and pleads and lays his will before us, we reject it and use our will to walk away, using our stronger will to trump his desire for us.
Nothing in scripture tells us that this is how it is, can be or should be.
The bible is quite clear on salvation; without him, we cannot see that we need him. And if we cannot even see the need, how do we find our way TO him? God calls, God saves, God leads us through the walk and on that last day glorifies.
Does the bible talk about us having a hand in that journey? Yes, it does. Does it also talk about free will in the sense that man, who does not come to Christ, will still be fully responsible for that choice? Yes, it does. Can I fully explain that distinction? No, not really. There are some things that are just beyond man to understand, I think, like the Trinity. And, there are things that some men grasp that are just beyond me. I haven't done as much reading and research on this topic as I could, and it's a deep, deep one.
But some things are obvious to me, as scripture is plain on it: God is sovereign and God is good. I trust him completely in this matter, and am humbled beyond belief that he extended grace to me...no better than the next sinner. That's what makes him amazing, not me. People are too quick to look at it as "God damning some people", where in point of fact all humanity is damned. We're damned by our own doing. What God is doing, what he has done, in his grace and mercy, is run an incredible rescue operation to save a few. He didn't have to or need to. And the notion we, who have been saved, should shake our fingers at him and scold him for not doing more, when he died for us, in our place, is beyond me.

 

[Mjh29]

But don't you see? This implies that our will is stronger than that of Gods. That even though he begs and pleads and lays his will before us, we reject it and use our will to walk away, using our stronger will to trump his desire for us.
Nothing in scripture tells us that this is how it is, can be or should be.
The bible is quite clear on salvation; without him, we cannot see that we need him. And if we cannot even see the need, how do we find our way TO him? God calls, God saves, God leads us through the walk and on that last day glorifies.
Does the bible talk about us having a hand in that journey? Yes, it does. Does it also talk about free will in the sense that man, who does not come to Christ, will still be fully responsible for that choice? Yes, it does. Can I fully explain that distinction? No, not really. There are some things that are just beyond man to understand, I think, like the Trinity. And, there are things that some men grasp that are just beyond me. I haven't done as much reading and research on this topic as I could, and it's a deep, deep one.
But some things are obvious to me, as scripture is plain on it: God is sovereign and God is good. I trust him completely in this matter, and am humbled beyond belief that he extended grace to me...no better than the next sinner. That's what makes him amazing, not me. People are too quick to look at it as "God damning some people", where in point of fact all humanity is damned. We're damned by our own doing. What God is doing, what he has done, in his grace and mercy, is run an incredible rescue operation to save a few. He didn't have to or need to. And the notion we, who have been saved, should shake our fingers at him and scold him for not doing more, when he died for us, in our place, is beyond me.

Beautifully stated. Amen.

 

[Naomi25]

I think Ephesians 2 is a good antidote to the free will way of thinking...

Oh yes! What a wonderful chapter! And the imagry! You were dead....a person cannot raise themselves from the dead, it is quite impossible. And that's what we were...dead. How can a dead person choose to become alive? No...God breathed life into us, because of his great love for us. :)

 

[farouk]

But don't you see? This implies that our will is stronger than that of Gods. That even though he begs and pleads and lays his will before us, we reject it and use our will to walk away, using our stronger will to trump his desire for us.
Nothing in scripture tells us that this is how it is, can be or should be.
The bible is quite clear on salvation; without him, we cannot see that we need him. And if we cannot even see the need, how do we find our way TO him? God calls, God saves, God leads us through the walk and on that last day glorifies.
Does the bible talk about us having a hand in that journey? Yes, it does. Does it also talk about free will in the sense that man, who does not come to Christ, will still be fully responsible for that choice? Yes, it does. Can I fully explain that distinction? No, not really. There are some things that are just beyond man to understand, I think, like the Trinity. And, there are things that some men grasp that are just beyond me. I haven't done as much reading and research on this topic as I could, and it's a deep, deep one.
But some things are obvious to me, as scripture is plain on it: God is sovereign and God is good. I trust him completely in this matter, and am humbled beyond belief that he extended grace to me...no better than the next sinner. That's what makes him amazing, not me. People are too quick to look at it as "God damning some people", where in point of fact all humanity is damned. We're damned by our own doing. What God is doing, what he has done, in his grace and mercy, is run an incredible rescue operation to save a few. He didn't have to or need to. And the notion we, who have been saved, should shake our fingers at him and scold him for not doing more, when he died for us, in our place, is beyond me.

"Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound..." (Romans 5.20).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Just as cults have their motivations.

You are invited to work through post144

 

[CoreIssue]

You are invited to work through post144

Does not change anything. Calvinism is a cult. So was Mormonism, Jehovah witness, Catholicism and the SDA.

 

[Mjh29]

Does not change anything. Calvinism is a cult. So was Mormonism, Jehovah witness, Catholicism and the SDA.

So what your saying is "facts don't change a thing. My feelings are much more valid than any amount of Scripture you could use in defense of your belief."

Usually I am not this blunt with people, but you are calling my belief a cult, and I really don't appreciate that, especially when you don't want to take the time to actually analyse the evidence we have provided and give a fair response. If there is too much overwhelming truth for you to combat that is fine, but please don't pretend like your personal feelings have any merit against biblical fact and continue spreading falsehood with 0 fact behind you.

 

[Waiting on him]

Does not change anything. Calvinism is a cult. So was Mormonism, Jehovah witness, Catholicism and the SDA.

You’ve got to admit these are some pretty big allegations? It’d probably be better to just concede and be done with it.

 

[CoreIssue]

So what your saying is "facts don't change a thing. My feelings are much more valid than any amount of Scripture you could use in defense of your belief."

Usually I am not this blunt with people, but you are calling my belief a cult, and I really don't appreciate that, especially when you don't want to take the time to actually analyse the evidence we have provided and give a fair response. If there is too much overwhelming truth for you to combat that is fine, but please don't pretend like your personal feelings have any merit against biblical fact and continue spreading falsehood with 0 fact behind you.

Yep, Calvinism is a cult.

Interestingly I have never seen a cult member from any cult admit they belong to a cult.

You haven't presented any evidence to defend Calvinism. In fact I have responded with proof many times. But it changes nothing. The proof is ignored with sometimes some effort to actually refute what the Bible says.

Jehovah witness, Mormons, SDA and Catholics all get offended when confronted with facts they do not like. They turn to claiming the person doesn't know the facts, has not studied and personal attacks.

Well let me get blunt. I've done 58 years of Bible study, studying cults, studying other religions and debating. Yet you want to act as if I have done.

Example being the claim that no one seeks God. Well, I posted 79 versus talking about people seeking God in free will. Where were you and the other Calvinists to try to biblically refute those verses? Answer is hiding somewhere in total silence because you couldn't refute the verses.

So your effort here to embarrass me and discredit me with nothing but innuendo and false claims is going nowhere. As if this is the first time someone is taking a shot at me in this way.

You need to get out of Calvinism. Calvinists are not the elite chosen of God. They are like those claiming to be one of the 144,000 of Jehovah witness. Or a temple Mormon that thinks they are on their
way to Godhood.

Your efforts here failed. And failed to understand when you speak to others from an old the position you're telling them they're doomed to hell and there's nothing they can do about it. That meaning it is all about.

 

[CoreIssue]

You’ve got to admit these are some pretty big allegations? It’d probably be better to just concede and be done with it.

Calvinism is a cult. at DuckDuckGo

Mormonism

Catholicism is a cult. at DuckDuckGo

 

[Waiting on him]

Calvinism is a cult. at DuckDuckGo

Mormonism

Catholicism is a cult. at DuckDuckGo

Okay