NO MORE WORKS ***

[bbyrd009]

Death, More Abundantly

 

[bbyrd009]

I’ve struggled with your question also. Romans 9:19-23 helped. “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?”

“Who has resisted God’s will?” If no one then ...”why does God yet find fault?”

“Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it , Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: [23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Consider the Son and what God asks of those vessels that obtain mercy: forgive as you have been forgiven. Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

“Prepared unto glory” ...

You might notice the crucial perspective change between what you quoted to reply to and your reply there. God is not your judge iOW, regardless of how you interp that passage. God does not find fault, even if the passage suggests as much. "Why does He still find fault?" is an assumption, see, not a statement of truth?

 

[Heart2Soul]

IMO works of faith are like what Abraham did when God told him to sacrifice his son...Abraham obeyed and by faith trusted God, or Noah when God instructed him to build an ark and by faith obeyed trusting the voice of the Lord speaking to him, or Moses who by faith obeyed God and went to Pharaoh and gave him the message God had spoken. These are examples of faith by works.....they put action behind what they had faith in hearing and obeying what they knew was God speaking to them.

Also, IMO, there is no such thing as works of righteousness....the Bible says there is none who is righteous...our righteousness is of Christ. There is however the fruits of the Holy Spirit that others can know what is in our heart....(we will know them by their fruits...doesn't say we will know them by their works).

God Bless.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You might notice the crucial perspective change between what you quoted to reply to and your reply there. God is not your judge iOW, regardless of how you interp that passage. God does not find fault, even if the passage suggests as much. "Why does He still find fault?" is an assumption, see, not a statement of truth?

You are right ...

It seems Paul knew the question would be asked (IMO). Taking some time away.

 

[amadeus]

It seems that you are saying that we should overcome the world as Jesus did? I agree with this statement. Through your monologue, however, I couldn't find where you mentioned how we overcome the world. I think you mentioned something about overcoming the world as Jesus did. If so, then how do we do this today?

I appreciate your answer, so I am looking forward to your response to this question.

In peace

We, through the power of the Holy Ghost in us, are able to overcome the world. If we do not do it, then we will follow the lead of that world's attraction back into sin and death. Most churches and/or their leaders teach people to quench the Holy Spirit in them. Thus we see where the Apostle warns us here:

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

It is by the Holy Spirit that we kill the "old man" of us and bring to Life the "new man" of us. John the Baptist said it this way:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

The "new man" up and the "old man" down.

When we quench the Holy Spirit in us then we make ourselves fall back on our own resources, on our own strength and that cannot work. If it could then it would have been unnecessary for God to send His Son.

What happens in churches is they follow the lead of men who are not following Jesus even though they may at time mouth the right words. Follow me they effectively say and then enforce by causing or requiring everyone in attendance to speak or act only according the established rules of etiquette of that assembly or organization or man... instead of the Holy Spirit in them. There are lots of dead churches. How many Live ones do we encounter?

How do we overcome? By surrendering to God.

Impossible?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

So then if we ask God for His help and we surrender ourselves completely to Him will He not help us?

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matt 7:7

 

[Davy]

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Some say that verse 6 above is saying that at one time, God saved people unto eternal life by their works, but now it is by grace. This is because the verse reads it is " no more of works", therefore, it used to be. I do not hold to this.


Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In the verses above, the meaning of "no more of works" can be found. Paul is saying that Israel sought righteousness, not by faith, but by the works of the law. Romans 11:6 is saying, the election of grace is God's determination to save those that believe by faith; faith would be based on the propitiation of Jesus. Israel stumbled at the stumblingstone of Christ. The remnant attained righteousness by faith. This righteousness is by grace, not by works. The remnant did not attain righteousness by the works of the law.

Paul stated that all of Israel were not children of God by virture of being of the seed of Abraham; Israel is counted as being the children of God thru the promise God gave through Isaac.

Rebecca had two sons, Jacob and Esau, by Isaac; God elected to chose Jacob to make the covenant.

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Election is God chosing how, and through whom, he will fulfill His purposes. God did not chose Jacob because he did good, and Esau did evil. The election of grace is not dependant on doing good or evil. The election is of grace. The election is not of works.

That is why Romans 11:6 says that it is "no more of works". The remnant attains righteousness by the election of grace. If the election is by grace, then it is no more of works. Grace has been chosen by God for righteousness. Works have been eliminated as a means of attaining righteousness.

I still don't see a problem with how that's worded, since Paul explains how he means that "no more of works". Under the old covenant it was about keeping God's laws to be in good standing with Him. It wasn't so to gain eternal life, for Jesus had not yet come to die on the cross to offer eternal life. But back then staying in God's grace did mean being saved from calamities of that time. And keeping His laws back then did help in His protection, and that was grace too, just not unto eternal life through Jesus' blood.

So Paul is not saying there is nothing righteous by following God's laws today, which appears to be the real gist your argument is attacking. Keeping what our Lord Jesus said to do is still a sign of righteousness today, it simply does not give eternal life, nor did it under the old covenant.

Each soul must believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior to have eternal life. Keeping God's laws does not change that requirement, nor does it affect that requirement. Thus Paul was clear that works won't save us, yet we as believers on Christ Jesus should have good works (Ephesians 2:10).

 

[bbyrd009]

Under the old covenant it was about keeping God's laws to be in good standing with Him.

In good standing with Him, you say? But I think when you try to Quote this you will see that it is absolutely not true, at least in a literal sense.

Also, in the New Covenant it is also about keeping God's Law, "that it may go well with you," which I'm sure you would concede is a considerably diff concept.

 

[bbyrd009]

It wasn't so to gain eternal life, for Jesus had not yet come to die on the cross to offer eternal life.

eternal is not immortal, and Scripture plainly delineates the two, sorry. This is the Cult of Sol Invictus, the Roman Centurion with the daughter? Ok well he would have been a Mithraist strictly speaking, but same diff.

 

[bbyrd009]

But back then staying in God's grace did mean being saved from calamities of that time. And keeping His laws back then did help in His protection, and that was grace too...

"Life, more abundantly"

just not unto eternal life through Jesus' blood.

So Paul is not saying there is nothing righteous by following God's laws today, which appears to be the real gist your argument is attacking. Keeping what our Lord Jesus said to do is still a sign of righteousness today, it simply does not give eternal life, nor did it under the old covenant.

Each soul must believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior to have eternal life. Keeping God's laws does not change that requirement, nor does it affect that requirement. Thus Paul was clear that works won't save us, yet we as believers on Christ Jesus should have good works (Ephesians 2:10).

death, more abundantly. I mean no offense, but choose wisely ok. Little children, do not be deceived and all that.

 

[Doug]

I still don't see a problem with how that's worded, since Paul explains how he means that "no more of works". Under the old covenant it was about keeping God's laws to be in good standing with Him. It wasn't so to gain eternal life, for Jesus had not yet come to die on the cross to offer eternal life. But back then staying in God's grace did mean being saved from calamities of that time. And keeping His laws back then did help in His protection, and that was grace too, just not unto eternal life through Jesus' blood.

So Paul is not saying there is nothing righteous by following God's laws today, which appears to be the real gist your argument is attacking. Keeping what our Lord Jesus said to do is still a sign of righteousness today, it simply does not give eternal life, nor did it under the old covenant.

Each soul must believe on Jesus Christ as God's Promised Savior to have eternal life. Keeping God's laws does not change that requirement, nor does it affect that requirement. Thus Paul was clear that works won't save us, yet we as believers on Christ Jesus should have good works (Ephesians 2:10).

My understanding of "no more of works" ,is that, it does not apply to keeping the law, but rather God's election is not based on works, but on grace.

 

[Jay Ross]

Can people please understand that the Covenant that Christ came to present, and was renewing/refurbishing during His First Advent was from the covenant that has been around since the time Adam was in the Garden.

The, so called, Old Covenant, which God Entered into with the Israelites around 1430 BC, was a Covenant with the Israelites to be a Kingdom of Priests, A Holy Nation, and His Possession among the Nations. By being willing to enter into this covenant, the Israelites would be able to become a blessing to all of the nations, but within 40 days, they had rebelled against this covenant. In our near future, when the Israelites repent of their idolatrous behaviour against God, God will once more make like new again this same Covenant, that He had made with the Israelites around the year 1430 BC when God seeks out the Lost Sheep of His fold.

The covenant that has existed, since the beginning of man, between God and man has only changed by the means in which God's Grace towards Mankind is now dispensed. God has always loved those who have loved Him and kept His Statutes. This change in the manner in which God's Grace is now dispensed towards mankind by God is the fulfilment of Daniel 9:24b.

Shalom

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

All Israel was God's elect, and yet not all Israel believed and were saved. Ephesians 1 shows that the apostles were predestined, but then the Ephesians also believed by God's foreknowledge. There is a difference. God DID NOT create some for damnation.

God chose Israel from all other nations ins Deut.7
Not every israelite was elect....rom9:6
The believing Ephesions were individually chosen to salvation.
Foreknowledge was of persons, not what they believed but of the persons themselves.rom8:29-30.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Ex.19:5-6 is being fulfilled now in the final Exodus.
1 pet 2:9-11

 

[Davy]

My understanding of "no more of works" ,is that, it does not apply to keeping the law, but rather God's election is not based on works, but on grace.

Yeah, when speaking of election, being chosen, that ain't about works.

 

[Mal'ak]

Jesus Christ answers this question about works with his own words, though there are good scripture to posted here to support Jesus' words, best to ask the High Priest himself the answer.

Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now the point of the parable is very simple, Jesus left this world when he died and rose from the dead, but there is still work to do as the Christian faith needed to be spread and the good news preached to all the world. So he left Christian workmen to finish his works he started when he was alive some God gives many works (5 talents) because they can handle it, others God gives few works (2 talents) because that is all they can handle, then others God gives very few works (1 talent) because they do not have a very strong faith but he wants to give them a chance to prove themselves. Those strong in their faith will use their spiritual gifts to do works equal to the gifts and found worthy to enter Heaven because they stayed true to God, while others "buried" their gifts and never used them to do works so when they stand before God the "unprofitable servant" will be crying as he is sent to hell.

Works is not about earning Heaven, as was stated by many in this thread, it is about not being ashamed of Jesus Christ and God the Father. If you see a Christian falling off the path and starting to be taken by satan, you can help them showing you are not ashamed of Jesus or God and showing that you have a good heart that will not stand to see a soul being killed by satan when you had a chance to save it. The other choice is you can keep walking to let their soul be killed by satan as he damns them to hell, because you are ashamed of being a Christian so want to put your "candle under a basket" or you have an evil heart and do not care that person's soul will die.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

 

[bbyrd009]

best to ask the High Priest himself the answer.

prolly best to back up a couple of vv to recognize that that is not a parable abut Christ, but "...because they were entering Jerusalem, and the apostles thought that the kingdom was about to appear." wadr

 

[Mal'ak]

prolly best to back up a couple of vv to recognize that that is not a parable abut Christ, but "...because they were entering Jerusalem, and the apostles thought that the kingdom was about to appear." wadr

Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country

Says at start, this parable is explaining the "Kingdom of Heaven", which is Jesus' spiritual Kingdom we are in now. Not sure what the rest of what you are talking about, but these are Jesus' words.

 

[Jay Ross]

Jesus Christ answers this question about works with his own words, though there are good scripture to posted here to support Jesus' words, best to ask the High Priest himself the answer.

Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Matthew 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Matthew 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Matthew 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

Matthew 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Matthew 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Matthew 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

Matthew 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

Matthew 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Matthew 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

Matthew 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now the point of the parable is very simple, Jesus left this world when he died and rose from the dead, but there is still work to do as the Christian faith needed to be spread and the good news preached to all the world. So he left Christian workmen to finish his works he started when he was alive some God gives many works (5 talents) because they can handle it, others God gives few works (2 talents) because that is all they can handle, then others God gives very few works (1 talent) because they do not have a very strong faith but he wants to give them a chance to prove themselves. Those strong in their faith will use their spiritual gifts to do works equal to the gifts and found worthy to enter Heaven because they stayed true to God, while others "buried" their gifts and never used them to do works so when they stand before God the "unprofitable servant" will be crying as he is sent to hell.

Works is not about earning Heaven, as was stated by many in this thread, it is about not being ashamed of Jesus Christ and God the Father. If you see a Christian falling off the path and starting to be taken by satan, you can help them showing you are not ashamed of Jesus or God and showing that you have a good heart that will not stand to see a soul being killed by satan when you had a chance to save it. The other choice is you can keep walking to let their soul be killed by satan as he damns them to hell, because you are ashamed of being a Christian so want to put your "candle under a basket" or you have an evil heart and do not care that person's soul will die.

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

It seems that your understanding of this particular parable is flawed.

The issue may be that a certain priest when inserting verse numbers into the scriptures, accidently put the verse number in the wrong place and hence the wrong understanding is arrived at.

 

[Mal'ak]

It seems that your understanding of this particular parable is flawed.

The issue may be that a certain priest when inserting verse numbers into the scriptures, accidently put the verse number in the wrong place and hence the wrong understanding is arrived at.

So instead of using the Word of God to explain why my understanding is flawed, you just make a blanket statement "you are wrong, I don't need to prove it". Then come up with verses mixed up, which means nothing to the meaning. If the five talents came second, and the two talents came first, the main story is the same. God gives us the ability to do works, those that refuse to do God's works is sent to hell. This is backed up as another person in thread pointed out, so I did not need to say it again, "faith without works is dead". Now I have given clear scripture saying "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness", along with second witness that says "faith without works is dead". Until you give at least one verse of scripture, you are just trying to use your flesh creativity to come up with a reason to justify a belief you were told by someone who obviously did not do a proper job in explaining why their view was according to God's word...else you would have used the scripture they used at least.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[Jay Ross]

So instead of using the Word of God to explain why my understanding is flawed, you just make a blanket statement "you are wrong, I don't need to prove it". Then come up with verses mixed up, which means nothing to the meaning. If the five talents came second, and the two talents came first, the main story is the same. God gives us the ability to do works, those that refuse to do God's works is sent to hell. This is backed up as another person in thread pointed out, so I did not need to say it again, "faith without works is dead". Now I have given clear scripture saying "cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness", along with second witness that says "faith without works is dead". Until you give at least one verse of scripture, you are just trying to use your flesh creativity to come up with a reason to justify a belief you were told by someone who obviously did not do a proper job in explaining why their view was according to God's word...else you would have used the scripture they used at least.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Depending on the Greek text that you are translating from, the NA27 Greek text does not have in the Greek, what you have provided in your scriptural quote of Matthew 25:14. However the Greek Textus Receptus has the Greek word βασιλείας on the wrong side of the verse number 14.

This is my understanding of this portion of scripture when the verse number is put into its correct place in the Greek Textus Receptus Text.

Matthew_25:10-17: - 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 "Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open to us!' 12 But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'

13 "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man’s realm/kingdom is coming.

The Parable of the Talents
(Luke 19:11-27)

14 "For as/like a man traveling away from where he live, called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.​

Now with respect to the answer as to who the man is that goes away for a time, that answer is given within both the Parable of the Minas and the Talents. The “Wicked” servant, according to the man who goes away, challenges the master as to whether he has any rights to the harvest of souls when he, Satan, returns to the face of the earth after being locked up for a period of 1,000 years in the Bottomless Pit.

The Parable of the Minas goes even further, where the servants' master demands that all the people who will not worship him, be brought before him to be killed.

Now do you need more evidence to explain why your understanding is flawed.

Shalom