Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?

[JesusIsFaithful]

@JesusIsFaithful SAYS YOU!!!!!

What Paul said was...and strange that you never quote it...
" I speak in tongues more than ye all..."

1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." IN THE CHURCH service.

So, where on earth WAS Paul when he "Thanked God that he "spoke in tongues more than ye all" ?????
He was in PRIVATE.

Here is something for you to consider..

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

So for Paul to say this:

1 Cor 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Paul is talking to believers in the assembly that can confirm that because he was referring to himself speaking in tongues in the assembly where the whole assembly can confirm that.

Paul was never referring to speaking in tongues privately for that cannot be confirmed by witnesses nor is it a true witness when speaking of himself either in relations to speaking in tongues more than others.

You guys are reading tongues for private use into Paul's words when he is not talking about tongues for private use at all in any part of that chapter when he was trying to show why believers should seek the gift of prophesy OVER the gift of tongues because it is not a stand alone gift to seek after.

But you guys seem to think Paul was undermining himself as if in between the lines, tongues for private use is way cooler than prophesy for all the supposed benefits that tongue in private use.

 

[Helen]

Again...SAYS YOU!!!
BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE!!!!

I don't think that now you could even believe God Himself if He wrote with His finger upon your bedroom wall.

 

[CoreIssue]

We are born again by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is a one-shot deal.

But sanctification is a lifetime effort.

Speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Everyone receives a gift, but not everyone receives the gift of tongues.

I see many people hurt and damaged chasing tongues when it was never meant for them.

 

[Enoch111]

You guys are reading tongues for private use into Paul's words when he is not talking about tongues for private use at all in any part of that chapter when he was trying to show why believers should seek the gift of prophesy OVER the gift of tongues because it is not a stand alone gift to seek after.

There is no question that Scripture has been re-interpreted to conform to the modern tongues Movement. Since Paul said he would rather speak five words of prophecy in the assembly than 10,000 words in tongues, that should be settled the issue.

 

[quietthinker]

Acts 19:1-3

1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
7 And all the men were about twelve.

...and when he comes he will testify of me... Jesus. In other words, he won't testify to himself.
The role of the Spirit is to glorify Jesus and those imbued with his Spirit are identified by this. The Spirit never draws attention to himself. Don't you find that interesting?

 

[Enoch111]

The Spirit never draws attention to himself. Don't you find that interesting?

Yes. Interesting and very significant. Which once again shows that Christ is the focus of the Bible. The Father has given all authority and power in Heaven and on earth to the Son, and the Holy Spirit directs every person to focus on the Son. So in one sense the whole Bible is *the Revelation of Jesus Christ*.

Which also tells us that every evangelist, pastor, and teacher must focus on the Lord Jesus Christ (no matter what the topic). Not anecdotes, jokes, entertainment, signs, wonders, miracles, or being slain in the Spirit, but the Bread of Life Himself.

 

[amadeus]

There is no question that Scripture has been re-interpreted to conform to the modern tongues Movement. Since Paul said he would rather speak five words of prophecy in the assembly than 10,000 words in tongues, that should be settled the issue.

But what else did Paul say about it?

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

I guess I won't say more because there is no doubt. Apparently you have none. You are one who, it would seem, by knowledge instead of by faith. What is the source of your knowledge? Could it be the same tree of which the first Adam and Eve partook?

 

[Nancy]

...and when he comes he will testify of me... Jesus. In other words, he won't testify to himself.
The role of the Spirit is to glorify Jesus and those imbued with his Spirit are identified by this. The Spirit never draws attention to himself. Don't you find that interesting?

Humility personified! ♥

 

[Enoch111]

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:" I Cor 14:18

Let's complete that thought with the next verse: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

So what is the meaning of these two verses? Let's paraphrase: "Because you Corinthians are competing about tongues, let me tell you that I speak with supernatural languages more than all of you. YET when I am within the assembly, I would rather not speak in tongues."

"Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." I Cor 14:39

And nobody in their right mind would forbid someone else to exercise a spiritual gift -- PROVIDED IT WAS GENUINE (human languages spoken supernaturally). But are today's tongues biblical tongues? Not according to those who have delved into this matter.

 

[CoreIssue]

Let's complete that thought with the next verse: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

So what is the meaning of these two verses? Let's paraphrase: "Because you Corinthians are competing about tongues, let me tell you that I speak with supernatural languages more than all of you. YET when I am within the assembly, I would rather not speak in tongues."


And nobody in their right mind would forbid someone else to exercise a spiritual gift -- PROVIDED IT WAS GENUINE (human languages spoken supernaturally). But are today's tongues biblical tongues? Not according to those who have delved into this matter.

The value of tongues in the very early church was the fact that the Jews were still practicing Judaism and Mosaic law. So these changes had to be totally confusing to them and they needed something to boost them over the hump.

But when Christianity became more understood and accepted tongues dwindled rapidly. They had fulfilled their need at that time.

Yes, all the gifts continue to be given today, but the question is what is their purpose at any given time
.

There have been a few instances where tongues indeed served a purpose. But they were rare. And far between

The Pentecostal teaching on tongues is false doctrine. We received the baptism of the Holy Spirit upon salvation. Same as when the tongues were given in Acts.

There aren't two events, one for salvation and one for gifts of the spirit. Totally un-biblical.

When Christ gave the apostles the Holy Spirit there was no tongues. At Pentecost very few spoke tongues. And after there was no record of tongues when somebody was saved.

The apostles never taught it.

Listening to Swaggart and ones like that all one hears is babbling. So there is no value no confirmation they were actually speaking in tongues.

I've been in a couple of Pentecostal churches where they practiced tongues and slain in the spirit. But in all the cases I knew what was going to happen per script.

I value gifts of the spirit. But I do not value them being abused or to psychologically pressure people into having to do it.

 

[Frank Lee]

Thanks be unto God Almighty forevermore for being so gracious as to save me then baptize me in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ and gave me the wonderful gift of tongues. This before men informed me I was in error, deceived, God no longer did these things, that the gifts petered out when Peter petered out. This they learn from their unlearned doctors of divinity, so called.

Who do we suppose is the originator of denying the gifts and calling of God? That's right friends. The same one that placed the first diybt written of in the Bible. What!? In my denomination!? Not possible...

This then is the evil of the denominations. The denial of the parts of God's word they've decided is in conflict with their doctrinal statement.

For beyond forty one years now I've rejoiced at the extraordinary gift of the Holy Spirit, tongues, prophecy, discernment of spirits, words of knowledge and the others.

There is no need to engage in conflict to determine if Jesus Christ who is the literal word of God is the same yesterday today and forever. All arguments against God's words must be directed to the author.








For those in denial I ask where's the fire? Do not mistake an unteachable spirit for the fire and zeal of the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This then is the evil of the denominations. The denial of the parts of God's word they've decided is in conflict with their doctrinal statement.

That would appear to be it. I honestly have waited upon God my whole life to teach me proper doctrine, never getting ahead of Him and insisting upon having an opinion about things "now" so I could stand up and be a "Bible Know-It-All." As a result He has taught me a great many things accurately because I was willing to wait on Him. The same goes for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I didn't question it one way or the other, but just waited on God. Then I had a genuine experience of the presence of God descending upon me tangibly during baptism, and numerous times thereafter and even to this day, and the grace of receiving the baptism helped me to understand that when I read the words "Holy Spirit" in scripture, they were not talking about some impersonal entity that was meant to be talked about but never experienced on a highly personal level. Rather, He was a Person who loved me and desired to be very close to me, and was ready and willing to teach me whatever I might want to know from His word. He was the very Presence of God Himself, sent to spend time with me, and also comfort me in my toughest moments.

I have no desire whatsoever to even debate this issue. The thought grieves me.

 

[Frank Lee]

I refuse to debate what the God of all creation has affirmed in the jots and tittles of his unchangeable word.

Did God change his word on the eternal foundation of his fidelity then our salvation would not be assured.

Those recklessly assigning fluctuation to his eternal promises are blind and not able see that their assault is not against those that have joyously received and dwelt in that word but with God himself. They propose to assign their private interpretation to every scripture not suiting their faulted schooling.

The Bible for them is a buffet. A little of this and that but none of these at all.

 

[quietthinker]

Humility personified! ♥

Thank you Nancy for seeing the obvious.

 

[amadeus]

Let's complete that thought with the next verse: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

So what is the meaning of these two verses? Let's paraphrase: "Because you Corinthians are competing about tongues, let me tell you that I speak with supernatural languages more than all of you. YET when I am within the assembly, I would rather not speak in tongues."


And nobody in their right mind would forbid someone else to exercise a spiritual gift -- PROVIDED IT WAS GENUINE (human languages spoken supernaturally). But are today's tongues biblical tongues? Not according to those who have delved into this matter.

If you are looking into all of the research and conclusions of men on this, then go ahead. None of that stuff is new to me and none of it alone will change my stand. Only God could do that in this regard. I have been serving God for many years and every day in addition to talking to God in English and German and Spanish I also speak in an unknown tongue. I have argued with people over the years on this and other forums. I doubt there is anything you could say that I have not heard more than once previously. I have prayed about this question you bring, again more than once. When He indicates that I need to change, I most certainly will. Only God gives us any real increase. If men with their PHD's could do it they would be the ones closest to God, but we know that that is not how it is. That is not how God intended it.

Education in the schools of men may not be an evil thing, but it certainly may misdirect people. One of my own biggest obstacles to moving closer to God was my education. Of those things I learned in schools and colleges, I had to unlearn many in order to allow God to move me forward and upward toward Him.

This too is part of what I have done starting again at the bottom which Luke calls the "lowest room"

Give God the glory!

 

[amadeus]

The value of tongues in the very early church was the fact that the Jews were still practicing Judaism and Mosaic law. So these changes had to be totally confusing to them and they needed something to boost them over the hump.

Do you really believe that people without God [unbelievers] have changed at all? They remain blind and deaf. People with God are growing and changing or they are in delusion. Many people claiming God and His Son today likely are in delusion, but go slow on drawing conclusions unless God is definitely giving you those conclusions.

But when Christianity became more understood and accepted tongues dwindled rapidly. They had fulfilled their need at that time.

And I suppose you have evidence according to scripture or from a direct revelation from God that what you say is true... or did your evidence and conclusions come rather from men and the works of men? You say they "fulfilled their need", but what was that need that does not also exist today? Does 40,000 denominations of Christian believers indicate that we are all One with God and His Son?

Yes, all the gifts continue to be given today, but the question is what is their purpose at any given time

Can you answer your own question as to what the purpose of tongues was at any given time? The answer is God's answer, and how many of us would tempt God by saying we really know His mind absolutely rather than only believe? Some of us may indeed know as God has spoken to our hearts and minds through the Holy Spirit, but if I or another were to say that that was the source of our understanding who would believe us? Probably many or even most people would disbelieve as they disbelieve God in so many things. So because the majority seems to rail against us, should we forsake God in favor of what is present from men?

There have been a few instances where tongues indeed served a purpose. But they were rare. And far between

And again this knowledge came to you from the scriptures or from God's direct revelation to you or was it perhaps something you heard from men who well studied in the Bible displayed something like a Doctorate in Theology degree?

The Pentecostal teaching on tongues is false doctrine. We received the baptism of the Holy Spirit upon salvation. Same as when the tongues were given in Acts.

"False doctrine"? You certainly seem to disagree with it, but what is it that you really know? You lump Pentecostals together as if they were all exactly at the same place in the road and believe me, from my own experience I can tell you that they are not. If you believe these are doctrines of devils, then avoid them and follow God, but go slow on condemning beliefs about you apparently know next to nothing at all... unless God has definitely given you the job to discredit them. If He has you should learn to use the scriptures yourself instead of simply generalizing or citing the conclusions of other men.

There aren't two events, one for salvation and one for gifts of the spirit. Totally un-biblical.

When Christ gave the apostles the Holy Spirit there was no tongues. At Pentecost very few spoke tongues. And after there was no record of tongues when somebody was saved.

And whose record did you read to draw such conclusions about the history of men and of men's churches? If men in any existing churches were in error, perhaps they would have made no accurate records or someone even burned or discredited the records that others did make. Perhaps the lack of a whole lot of written documentation is simply because we are to live by faith rather than by knowledge. God gave us a written record in scripture in which He purposely, I believe, misleads some people. Even the disagreeing denominations have their purpose... The purpose I believe is allow us to get along even with those with whom we sharply disagree. This is Love. This is Charity.

The apostles never taught it.

Listening to Swaggart and ones like that all one hears is babbling. So there is no value no confirmation they were actually speaking in tongues.

Everyone babbles early in their faith, whether it is in an unknown tongue or in English. Do you condemn natural babies because they babble before they learn to talk?

I've been in a couple of Pentecostal churches where they practiced tongues and slain in the spirit. But in all the cases I knew what was going to happen per script.

And I have been in some non-Pentecostal churches that were really dead to the things of God from what I could see or hear. The script anywhere is wrong if the Leader is not the Holy Spirit in people. Saying that some are wrong is probably a great understatement. I would venture to day that probably most churches settings [Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist, etc.] are wrong, but don't condemn the people and don't presume to know how to pinpoint one reason why they are in error unless you are always right in the things of God. Who is?

 

[Helen]

I'm trying to catch up on the last two days of posts and threads that I have missed.

I wish this thread had been allowed to die...
For me it is almost blasphemous to debate the things of the Holy Spirit. I find it grievous and often it amazes me how brave some anti-tongues posts are.
Much like one man saying to another..."You have a horrible ugly wife." And the first man loves her and find her beautiful.

I was baptised in the Holy Ghost in 1964 ...three years after a dramatic salvation experience... To me, some Pastor asked the old question..."Have you received since you believed"
I received. And I have spoken in tongues and functioned in some of the gifts ever since.
The Holy Spirit is not a 'was' He is a constant 'is' the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Obviously there will always be believers and the non believers re the gifts. Why can't we just leave the subject be...the two will never come together..why pretend that either side will change position by arguing the point!

 

[Dave L]

"Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?" does not mean what most think. Act 2:38 and Acts 19:2 have nothing to do with salvation. They have everything to do with saved Jews (believers) leaving the Old Covenant and entering the New Covenant. Where the Spirit is now IN them instead of being WITH them.

God spoke his word through tongues and prophecy, imparting the Holy Spirit to all who heard at a spiritual level. Just as he does today through scripture. And after collecting all of the New Covenant words spoken in tongues and prophecy into one group, now called scripture, we have the whole picture instead of just the bits and pieces tongues and prophecy provided. Tongues today are not scripture as it once was, nor is prophecy scripture as it once was.

 

[Hidden In Him]

And I suppose you have evidence according to scripture or from a direct revelation from God that what you say is true... or did your evidence and conclusions come rather from men and the works of men?

Actually, not that I am vilifying CoreIssue by saying this, but I think such conclusions came from the enemy, not man. The claim that the spiritual gifts dwindled because they had fulfilled their need is adding one evil upon another. A closer look at quotes from the early church fathers reveals the gifts dwindled because corporate prayer slowly dwindled. And the more it dwindled the more false doctrine crept in as well. To now add that "God" no longer needs the gospel to be confirmed with signs and wonders following is to teach what the enemy would love for the church to teach. It effectively eliminates all hope of the church ever doing so again.

 

[Hidden In Him]

For me it is almost blasphemous to debate the things of the Holy Spirit. I find it grievous and often it amazes me how brave some anti-tongues posts are.
Much like one man saying to another..."You have a horrible ugly wife." And the first man loves her and find her beautiful.

I was baptised in the Holy Ghost in 1964 ...three years after a dramatic salvation experience... To me, some Pastor asked the old question..."Have you received since you believed"
I received. And I have spoken in tongues and functioned in some of the gifts ever since.
The Holy Spirit is not a 'was' He is a constant 'is' the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

Obviously there will always be believers and the non believers re the gifts. Why can't we just leave the subject be...the two will never come together..why pretend that either side will change position by arguing the point!

Agreed. I mostly post to encourage those who defend the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the continued operation of gifts of the Holy Spirit. For me to discuss it with someone who rejects those ideas gives me much the same feeling as when I used to lead worship and have unsaved, carnal people close to the altar and in my line of sight (and feel). It quenches the Spirit to even be in surroundings like that... so I just tend to avoid it as much as possible.