Why Baptize a Baby?

[BreadOfLife]

BoL, you're making the assumption that other Christians view baptism as a copy/paste version of OT circumcision. That assumption simply doesn't hold throughout Christiandom, hence the argument goes no where.

Once again, the big foundational question is *why* should a person be baptized in the first place.

The BIBLE pretty much makes it clear that baptism replaces circumcision as the means of our initiation int the family of God (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Eph. 4:5-6).

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe this reality. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is now baptism.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Really quite Simple. Ceremonies do not Save a soul. God Does. God decides who will and who will not Become a "son of God"....not people deciding for others, not water, and not ceremonies.

You confuse who is a member of a man made Church with who is a member of Christ's Church.

Glory to God,
Taken

Catholics believe in Baptismal regeneration - but that's NOT what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about Baptism as the means of our initiation into God's family - not salvation.

I already know that you don't agree that Baptism saves us. But - your anti-Catholicism aside - do you agree that it is the means of our initiation in to God's family?

 

[Taken]

BoL, you're making the assumption that other Christians view baptism as a copy/paste version of OT circumcision. That assumption simply doesn't hold throughout Christiandom, hence the argument goes no where.

Once again, the big foundational question is *why* should a person be baptized in the first place.

Mankind has a time frame and learning curve.

A man gets a little bit of information, in preparation for greater knowledge and wisdom.

Foreskin circumcision, was a prelude and preparation for the real deal circumcision of the Heart, Spiritually performed by the Lord.

Water baptism, was a prelude and preparation for the real deal of Death, and Rising Up, via the Lords Spiritual Baptism of Washing in His BLOOD, crucifixion with the Lord, and receiving Holy Spirit.

It is a matter of being a BABE, sucking MILK, and remaining a BABE sucking MILK, or one having MATURED and prepared for MEAT.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Jane_Doe22]

The BIBLE pretty much makes it clear that baptism replaces circumcision as the means of our initiation int the family of God (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Eph. 4:5-6).

But is that a copy/paste version or is there something different?

For example, i believe that yes baptism is the replacement for circumcision, but it is NOT a copy/paste replacement. Because in the OT, being a person of the covenant was just a matter of genetics: did you happen to have so-and-so DNA. It had nothing to do with your heart, whether or not you believed in God at all-- in fact you could be a rampaging murder and still be genetically part of the covenant. Or you could worship God with all your heart, mind, and soul, but still not be part of the covenant because you didn't have those genetics.

Come, NT times, the Gospel is preached to everyone, regardless of genetics. Jew and Gentile may both hear the Gospel and enter into Christ's covenant. It is no longer determined by genetics, but by that individual's heart. Hence only a believer may enter into this covenant and not a choice may be someone else.

 

[Taken]

The BIBLE pretty much makes it clear that baptism replaces circumcision as the means of our initiation int the family of God (Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Eph. 4:5-6).

Paul uses the terms, “circumcision of the heart” and the “circumcision of Christ” (Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17) to describe this reality. The Old Testament type that was circumcision is now baptism.

Circumcision OF God has always been concerning the HEART.

Baptism OF God has always been concerning the SEED of God internally and spiritually BIRTHING a mans natural spirit, into a spiritual spirit.

All the Knowledge from the beginning of mankind....was to prepare a man FOR Gods Circumcision of the HEART and His SEED to rebirth a mans NATURAL spirit into an everylasting Spiritual spirit.

Anyone can promise to TEACH a Baby, but one can not MAKE the CHOICE FOR ANOTHER to Believe and Commit TO God....
Regardless of how many words a Cleric pronounces over them or how many ceremonies are performed or water dripped on a baby or a baby dipped in water.....

THAT PERSON is NOT saved or Baptized in the Holy Spirit UNTIL they Choose to Commit unto the Lord. (With the Exception, of those who have not heard...particularly babies).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

But is that a copy/paste version or is there something different?

For example, i believe that yes baptism is the replacement for circumcision, but it is NOT a copy/paste replacement. Because in the OT, being a person of the covenant was just a matter of genetics: did you happen to have so-and-so DNA. It had nothing to do with your heart, whether or not you believed in God at all-- in fact you could be a rampaging murder and still be genetically part of the covenant. Or you could worship God with all your heart, mind, and soul, but still not be part of the covenant because you didn't have those genetics.

Come, NT times, the Gospel is preached to everyone, regardless of genetics. Jew and Gentile may both hear the Gospel and enter into Christ's covenant. It is no longer determined by genetics, but by that individual's heart. Hence only a believer may enter into this covenant and not a choice may be someone else.

First of all - what is a "copy/paste" replacement?

Secondly - you're wrong about simple genetics making you part of the Covenant. You had to be circumcised - it was a
REQUIREMENT.

Finally - NOWHERE in the NT does it say that ONLY a believer can enter into the New Covenant.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Circumcision OF God has always been concerning the HEART.

Baptism OF God has always been concerning the SEED of God internally and spiritually BIRTHING a mans natural spirit, into a spiritual spirit.

All the Knowledge from the beginning of mankind....was to prepare a man FOR Gods Circumcision of the HEART and His SEED to rebirth a mans NATURAL spirit into an everylasting Spiritual spirit.

Anyone can promise to TEACH a Baby, but one can not MAKE the CHOICE FOR ANOTHER to Believe and Commit TO God....
Regardless of how many words a Cleric pronounces over them or how many ceremonies are performed or water dripped on a baby or a baby dipped in water.....

THAT PERSON is NOT saved or Baptized in the Holy Spirit UNTIL they Choose to Commit unto the Lord. (With the Exception, of those who have not heard...particularly babies).

Glory to God,
Taken

This STILL doesn't answer the question as to HOW a baby was welcomed into the Covenant with God by something their PARENTS chose for them. Why would God allow that but NOT initiation by Baptism - and WHO says that He did?

Finally - WHY did the Early Church Fathers unanimously teach Infant Baptism as something that was passed onto them by the Apostles??

 

[Jane_Doe22]

First of all - what is a "copy/paste" replacement?

That it's the exact same -- copy/paste.
In this case, what is not the exact same is the convent being entered into and how that entrance happens.

Secondly - you're wrong about simple genetics making you part of the Covenant. You had to be circumcised - it was a
REQUIREMENT.

And you had to be a genetically a Jewish person.

Finally - NOWHERE in the NT does it say that ONLY a believer can enter into the New Covenant.

We'e already agreee that this argument isn't properly settled by sola scriptura alone.

Now, can you see how in my view, that yes baptism is how a person enters into the New Covenant and how it is about belief and not genetics? I'm not asking you to agree with it-- I know you don't. But can you see and understand my view?

 

[BreadOfLife]

That it's the exact same -- copy/paste.
In this case, what is not the exact same is the convent being entered into and how that entrance happens.
And you had to be a genetically a Jewish person.

We'e already agreee that this argument isn't properly settled by sola scriptura alone.
Now, can you see how in my view, that yes baptism is how a person enters into the New Covenant and how it is about belief and not genetics? I'm not asking you to agree with it-- I know you don't. But can you see and understand my view?
That it's the exact same -- copy/paste.
In this case, what is not the exact same is the convent being entered into and how that entrance happens.

And you had to be a genetically a Jewish person.

Not exactly.

First of all - nobody is saying that Baptism is EXACTLY like circumcision.
Circumcision was not regenerative, whereas Baptism IS.

I said that as far as it being the means of initiation into God's family - it is the same.

As for genetics - there were Jewish converts. who had to be circumcised as adults.

We'e already agreee that this argument isn't properly settled by sola scriptura alone.

Now, can you see how in my view, that yes baptism is how a person enters into the New Covenant and how it is about belief and not genetics? I'm not asking you to agree with it-- I know you don't. But can you see and understand my view?

Yes, I DO see - but don't agree.

As for Sola Scriptura - you are correct. This cannot be settled by Scripture alone - and THAT'S where Apostolic Tradition comes in (2 Thess. 2:15).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, I DO see

Thank you. That's all I was asking for.

As for Sola Scriptura - you are correct. This cannot be settled by Scripture alone - and THAT'S where Apostolic Tradition comes in (2 Thess. 2:15).

I do agree that 100% that sola scriptura is insufficient. How, I disagree on who's the other authority to be involved (as do all non-Catholics on here).

Again, I'm just trying to explain different perspectives here, not looking to get agreement.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you. That's all I was asking for.

I do agree that 100% that sola scriptura is insufficient. How, I disagree on who's the other authority to be involved (as do all non-Catholics on here).

Again, I'm just trying to explain different perspectives here, not looking to get agreement.

And I respect your difference of opinion.
I wish everybody here debated and discussed the way YOU do . . .

 

[Jane_Doe22]

And I respect your difference of opinion.

Thank you. :)

Just trying to explain different perspectives on this board.

 

[quietthinker]

No - just getting to the TRUTH of what Scripture actually says - and NOT what tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually splintering Protestant sects claim for themselves . . .

if then the light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness....Jesus

 

[Taken]

Catholics believe in Baptismal regeneration - but that's NOT what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about Baptism as the means of our initiation into God's family - not salvation.

I already know that you don't agree that Baptism saves us.

What an idiotic thing to say!

Seriously when are you going to stop thinking and talking FOR OTHER PEOPLE?

No one is accountable for the Garbage you think and speak FOR OTHER PEOPLE!

But - your anti-Catholicism aside -

Aside from your anti-everything and everyone that does not consider or exalt your high-mindedness of Catholic-ISM, I could care less what you THINK.... and you spouting off FALSE accusations, AS IF you speaking LIES FOR others makes your Catholic mumbo jumbo true....simply makes your teaching laughable.

Glory to Thee Lord God and Savior,
Taken

 

[Taken]

This STILL doesn't answer the question as to HOW a baby was welcomed into the Covenant with God by something their PARENTS chose for them. Why would God allow that but NOT initiation by Baptism - and WHO says that He did?

Until you understand what Baptism is, you will have many questions.

Finally - WHY did the Early Church Fathers unanimously teach Infant Baptism as something that was passed onto them by the Apostles??

LOL

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I wish everybody here debated and discussed the way YOU do . . .

(missed this earlier)

The key is respect. Let us skip the anti-Catholic snide comments, and the anti-Protestant ones, and the anti-____. Instead, let people speak their own beliefs and civilly respect them/their beliefs, even when we passionately disagree on things.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Until you understand what Baptism is, you will have many questions.

LOL

Glory to God,
Taken

No - I definitely understand what it is and what it does.
I am trying to find SOME common ground so we can possibly agree on at least PART of what it does.

 

[brakelite]

So, what is baptism? It is an outward demonstration of a transaction that had already taken place in the heart. It is a public declaration of a change in loyalty...a change in attitude...a change in direction. It is an act of obedience as a result of repentance. It is a voluntary death. If someone else baptises another without the others approval or co-operation, that is murder. Baptism is a death and resurrection akin to the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ gave His life. None took it from Him without His consent and cooperation. Christ laid down His life voluntarily, as we do when allowing ourselves to be lowered into the waters. It is a sign of surrender, a sign of our willingness to be raised up by God a new person in Christ.
Babies cannot make such a decision, and no one can make it for them.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

So, what is baptism? It is an outward demonstration of a transaction that had already taken place in the heart. It is a public declaration of a change in loyalty...a change in attitude...a change in direction. It is an act of obedience as a result of repentance. It is a voluntary death. If someone else baptises another without the others approval or co-operation, that is murder. Baptism is a death and resurrection akin to the death and resurrection of Christ. Christ gave His life. None took it from Him without His consent and cooperation. Christ laid down His life voluntarily, as we do when allowing ourselves to be lowered into the waters. It is a sign of surrender, a sign of our willingness to be raised up by God a new person in Christ.
Babies cannot make such a decision, and no one can make it for them.

Amen!

 

[BreadOfLife]

What an idiotic thing to say!
Seriously when are you going to stop thinking and talking FOR OTHER PEOPLE?
No one is accountable for the Garbage you think and speak FOR OTHER PEOPLE!

Aside from your anti-everything and everyone that does not consider or exalt your high-mindedness of Catholic-ISM, I could care less what you THINK.... and you spouting off FALSE accusations, AS IF you speaking LIES FOR others makes your Catholic mumbo jumbo true....simply makes your teaching laughable.

Glory to Thee Lord God and Savior,
Taken

Sooooo, you AGREE that Baptism saves us??
If SO then why NOT Baptize babies??

And - if you don't - what was so "idiotic" about what I said??
Instead of getting so defensive - try having a civil conversation.