2 Thessalonians 1:8

[Helen]

"forgiveness will not save you from the consequences, yes you are forgiven already, but you will still reap what you have sown"

Haha! I wish I had said that... :)

 

[brakelite]

"forgiveness will not save you from the consequences, yes you are forgiven already, but you will still reap what you have sown"

So our deliberate and premeditated disobedience to God's commandments, and our turning away from His warnings and rebukes; our Apostasy and worshipping of our selves in place of God, and the gratification of the lusts of the flesh and the eyes results only in some temporary inconvenience but doesn't affect our eternal destiny apart from a less glittery crown.
So Christ's death and separation from His Father in propitiation for sin is not a warning to all who would resist the Spirit of God? Is such stubborn resistance not the unforgivable sin?

 

[bbyrd009]

So our deliberate and premeditated disobedience to God's commandments, and our turning away from His warnings and rebukes; our Apostasy and worshipping of our selves in place of God, and the gratification of the lusts of the flesh and the eyes results only in some temporary inconvenience but doesn't affect our eternal destiny apart from a less glittery crown.
So Christ's death and separation from His Father in propitiation for sin is not a warning to all who would resist the Spirit of God? Is such stubborn resistance not the unforgivable sin?

i would say prolly yes, actually, or maybe a good analog, even though i don't buy the propitiation thing (diff subject, ok, propitiation is all in our minds, and the Bible will even verify this imo, but diff thread though ok). Of course forgiveness is not even pertinent in that moment, the guy wonders if God will forgive him, meaning he is hoping for God's forgiveness in order to gain...something, right, not quite sure what, and forgetting about his wife's forgiveness, which he prolly is not going to get, and she's the one can ruin him right lol. Plus now when he really is sorry later, when he reaps what he's sowed and he's crying about how sorry he really is then, well no one is going to buy it, right. so ya, the "unforgiveable sin" is the one you are about to commit maybe, nice :)

 

[Helen]

I don't believe in any "Unforgiveable sin" never have and wont start now. :)
I even believe that is King Saul, and even Judas would have 'turned' they could have died 'knowing' that they were forgiven.

 

[Marymog]

More or less.

But you should understand that not only did I replace the word water with flesh, but Jesus also did something similar because nothing is actually/literally "born of water"...and so did you just now when you said "That means born of a human." Meaning...that it is okay to explain using other words, it's a common form of communication. But it also means that taking something like "born of water" literally, when nothing is born of water literally...is simply missing the point of the language and example being used to make the greater point, which is about being born of the Spirit.

Thank you. Finally, I think I understand.

By using your interpretation of that passage and by "using other words" to explain to a adolescent or a person of low literacy (we will call them bible study students) , that passage would generally read like this: Truly, Truly I say to you that no animals can enter the kingdom of God. One can only enter if you are born of human and the Spirit.

I would then have to go on to explain to my bible study students that even though Jesus used the word "water" in that passage AND even though animals are born of water (amniotic sac) Jesus really meant that only HUMANS can enter the kingdom of God.

Have I finally got it right? :)


Mary

 

[Frank Lee]

I was born again, saved - years ago made a brand new creation months before I was ever water baptized. If I had died before being water baptized I WOULD STILL be saved.

My salvation was not awaiting my baptism in water.

My church of Christ nephew is more concerned with getting people baptized in water than getting them saved. I am not confident that he has been born again.

How did I know I was saved? Well it was outside of any church or denominational walls and no man was involved in any way. I found that I no longer wanted to live any part of the life I'd lived a few months previously. I was truly a new creation and had to read the Bible to discover what had happened to me.

I couldn't identify with most of my old life. It was very strange with no one except for God to tell me. Thankfully I had time to read, pray and more fully understand water baptism.

In that time before water baptism Jesus baptized me in the Holy Spirit of promise perhaps a month after being born again.

I need not fear God's vengeance now having been made a partaker of the grace provided so freely by the willing sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. If God be for me who can be against me.

I am his and he is mine. As he told me never see yourself as separate from me. He will never leave me nor forsake me. I am his child.

 

[ScottA]

Thank you. Finally, I think I understand.

By using your interpretation of that passage and by "using other words" to explain to a adolescent or a person of low literacy (we will call them bible study students) , that passage would generally read like this: Truly, Truly I say to you that no animals can enter the kingdom of God. One can only enter if you are born of human and the Spirit.

I would then have to go on to explain to my bible study students that even though Jesus used the word "water" in that passage AND even though animals are born of water (amniotic sac) Jesus really meant that only HUMANS can enter the kingdom of God.

Have I finally got it right? :)


Mary

No...I would say that you have made a mountain out of a mole hill over semantics, while showing that the Love of Christ is not in you.

 

[Marymog]

No...I would say that you have made a mountain out of a mole hill over semantics, while showing that the Love of Christ is not in you.

Soooooo my summarization of you interpretation of that passage is not accurate???

Can you explain your interpretation better so I can understand it?

Mary

 

[ScottA]

Soooooo my summarization of you interpretation of that passage is not accurate???

Can you explain your interpretation better so I can understand it?

Mary

I have. But it was not an interpretation of scripture, but rather the spiritual interpretation and answer for what you have heard but do not understand...much like the interpretation of tongues. It might help to read 1 Corinthians 12.

Nonetheless, I cannot explain what cannot be heard. Therefore, it is better that you pray to God for what is true, than to question a fellow child of God.

 

[Marymog]

I have. But it was not an interpretation of scripture, but rather the spiritual interpretation and answer for what you have heard but do not understand...much like the interpretation of tongues. It might help to read 1 Corinthians 12.

Nonetheless, I cannot explain what cannot be heard. Therefore, it is better that you pray to God for what is true, than to question a fellow child of God.

Hmmmm.....Maybe I am the "fellow child of God" and you should listen to me. ;)

 

[Helen]

I have. But it was not an interpretation of scripture, but rather the spiritual interpretation and answer for what you have heard but do not understand...much like the interpretation of tongues. It might help to read 1 Corinthians 12.

Nonetheless, I cannot explain what cannot be heard. Therefore, it is better that you pray to God for what is true, than to question a fellow child of God.

Wise words.... :)

 

[ScottA]

Hmmmm.....Maybe I am the "fellow child of God" and you should listen to me. ;)

If we are going to reverse rolls, I am afraid it may take too long for me to develop your special attitude.

 

[Marymog]

If we are going to reverse rolls, I am afraid it may take too long for me to develop your special attitude.

Dear Scott,

If you really want to believe that Jesus intent with that passage was to clarify with his disciples that even though animals are born of water (amniotic sac), only HUMANS can enter the kingdom of God. Twist scripture all you want, I still believe you will probably obtain eternal salvation.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I don't believe in any "Unforgiveable sin" never have and wont start now. :)
I even believe that is King Saul, and even Judas would have 'turned' they could have died 'knowing' that they were forgiven.

Hi BG,

Jesus would like to say something to you:

Verily I say unto you ByGrace, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies where with soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

Bible study Mary

 

[ScottA]

Dear Scott,

If you really want to believe that Jesus intent with that passage was to clarify with his disciples that even though animals are born of water (amniotic sac), only HUMANS can enter the kingdom of God. Twist scripture all you want, I still believe you will probably obtain eternal salvation.

Mary

Cool.

 

[farouk]

To be born again "born from above" that is done by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:6 -Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

And this is through the Living Word of God.
1 Peter 1:23 -For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Faith is what justifies us before God and one of the clearest passages in the Bible is the "word of faith which we are preaching" (Rom.10:8) In verses 9,10 it is clear where salvation occurs. One makes the confession that "Jesus is Lord" and righteousness results from a believing heart. That is the message (word of faith) that the Apostles were preaching!

We come into contact with the blood of Jesus through faith.
Romans 3:25 - God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-

No mention of baptism in those important verses that you quoted!

 

[CoreIssue]

No mention of baptism in those important verses that you quoted!

Or evidence of tongues.

 

[amadeus]

i would say prolly yes, actually, or maybe a good analog, even though i don't buy the propitiation thing (diff subject, ok, propitiation is all in our minds, and the Bible will even verify this imo, but diff thread though ok). Of course forgiveness is not even pertinent in that moment, the guy wonders if God will forgive him, meaning he is hoping for God's forgiveness in order to gain...something, right, not quite sure what, and forgetting about his wife's forgiveness, which he prolly is not going to get, and she's the one can ruin him right lol. Plus now when he really is sorry later, when he reaps what he's sowed and he's crying about how sorry he really is then, well no one is going to buy it, right. so ya, the "unforgiveable sin" is the one you are about to commit maybe, nice :)

It is the one you are about to commit when you are sure you still have time, but actually your time is also about to run out. We should not try to second guess God. This is, I believe, called tempting God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hey, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I was impenitent and disobedient. I did obey... But my obedience is not the means to my justification. That does not mean my continuing obedience has no part to play in my ultimate Salvation. I am justified in the sight of God by the blood of the Lamb. Period. Any obedience on my part subsequent to my faith in the atonement, is a fruit of righteousness accomplished by the work of the holy Spirit abiding within.

Obedience to the will of God is the only way the Bible teaches one can be justified, Rom 6:17-18. There is no example of anyone's disobedience to God's will that made them justified. Abraham was justified BY his obedience works in doing God's will in sacrificing Isaac. He could never have been justified had he disobeyed God.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I will try to articulate myself better

You said the implication of verse 8 is "if one does not want to be lost in flaming fire facing God's vengeance then one must obey the gospel of Christ."

I am simply saying the implication of verse 8 is pretty dang clear....It is CLEARLY stated in verse 9: They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the LORD and from the glory of his might.

No need to go to 1 Corinthians or Romans....It's in VERSE 9!!

Does that make sense?

Mary

Those who do not "obey the gospel of Christ" per verse 8 will be the one's that will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" per verse 9. Hence those that obey not the gospel of Christ will be the ones punished in flaming fire, in everlasting destruction.


So I still do not get what the point is you are trying to make.