Books Outside the Bible

[Marymog]

I NEVER said that I depend on myself. In fact, I've said the opposite many times. I've said over and over that I DEPEND on the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. That is to say that I CANNOT understand the truth apart from Him. I can know things about God and about the Bible, but I can't understand God or His Word without the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like the difference in hearing about someone and knowing them.

Before I was saved, I tried to read the Bible sometimes. I always became frustrated and gave up because it didn't make sense to me. When I became a Christian, the Holy Spirit gave me understanding, and I LOVED reading the Bible. I couldn't get enough of it! It fed my spirit.

Sometimes the Holy Spirit will lead me to read a certain book in the Bible--say Genesis or Matthew. When I obey His leading, I'm always blessed with deeper understanding of the Scriptures even though I've read these books many times. He always shows me things I didn't see before, and those things, which have always been there (obviously) instruct me in my life.

Got it.......You depend on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.

So did Luther. So did Calvin. So did Zwingili and all the men of the Catholic and Methodist and Presbyterian etc. etc. Churches.

WHY are all your truths different if you all have the same Holy Spirit guiding you?

You made the accusation that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible includes doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible. They are unbiblical. They are man-made, not Spirit-breathed. What about the Lutheran and Presbyterian and Methodist etc etc Churches? Do their interpretations of the Bible include doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible that are unbiblical and are man-made, not Spirit-breathed?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

hmmm.. or maybe he should just listen to whatever his church magisterium tells him to think -- which is still going to result in non-Catholic. I don't see how this solves the issue.

Well, he did listen to 'his' church magisterium.....He listened to himself. He was his own magisterium.

Do you agree with what Calvin did in Geneva and too the people that disagreed with him?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council. But no matter we can just all agree they were in gross error - right? let bygones be bygones.

Some folks would like to put a happy face on "exterminate" to simply mean "steal all their lands and property and chase them out of the nation at the point of a sword/gun" -- well "whatever". My main question is - how in the world does it occur to you to want to compare the Catholic method of dealing with differences with someone today who has a difference with Calvinist teaching at some point?

Here is a link to the Lateran IV Constitution. Can you show me in there where they call for the "extermination of heretics"? I can't find it.

Lateran 4 - 1215

I don't understand your question. Could you rephrase it?

Curious Mary

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Got it.......You depend on the Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth.

So did Luther. So did Calvin. So did Zwingili and all the men of the Catholic and Methodist and Presbyterian etc. etc. Churches.

WHY are all your truths different if you all have the same Holy Spirit guiding you?

You made the accusation that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible includes doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible. They are unbiblical. They are man-made, not Spirit-breathed. What about the Lutheran and Presbyterian and Methodist etc etc Churches? Do their interpretations of the Bible include doctrines that clearly contradict the Bible that are unbiblical and are man-made, not Spirit-breathed?

Mary

The major Protestant denominations are on the same page when it comes to basic Bible doctrine. We all agree on the basic Bible truths. I can talk to just about any other Protestant about the basics, and we understand each other. I don't know what else to tell you other than what I've already explained about denominations emphasizing various aspects of Bible doctrine.

I think where you're getting hung up is that you seem to be thinking that all Christians have to identify with a particular church's doctrine. I don't! I'm not a Presbyterian or a Methodist, or a Baptist.... I'm a Bible-believing Christian, period. I've known other Christians who see this as I do and seek to understand God's Word as they rely on the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marymog]

Ou

The major Protestant denominations are on the same page when it comes to basic Bible doctrine. We all agree on the basic Bible truths. I can talk to just about any other Protestant about the basics, and we understand each other. I don't know what else to tell you other than what I've already explained about denominations emphasizing various aspects of Bible doctrine.

I think where you're getting hung up is that you seem to be thinking that all Christians have to identify with a particular church's doctrine. I don't! I'm not a Presbyterian or a Methodist, or a Baptist.... I'm a Bible-believing Christian, period.

It would help if we could define "basic Bible doctrine" so that we are on the same page. In your book, what are the basics?

I think that all Christians have to believe in and follow the Truth put forth in scripture.

I am a Bible believing Christian also. Since there is no "table of contents" in the bible which Bible are we to guide us into our beliefs? The one with 66 or 73 books?


Mary

 

[Marymog]

The major Protestant denominations are on the same page when it comes to basic Bible doctrine. We all agree on the basic Bible truths. I can talk to just about any other Protestant about the basics, and we understand each other. I don't know what else to tell you other than what I've already explained about denominations emphasizing various aspects of Bible doctrine.

I think where you're getting hung up is that you seem to be thinking that all Christians have to identify with a particular church's doctrine. I don't! I'm not a Presbyterian or a Methodist, or a Baptist.... I'm a Bible-believing Christian, period. I've known other Christians who see this as I do and seek to understand God's Word as they rely on the Holy Spirit.

The major Protestant denominations disagree on how one obtains salvation, however, they were guided by the same Holy Spirit. How do we rectify this difference that effects our salvation?

Mary

 

[Willie T]

If only I were successful in my feeble attempts to get you guys to read,
Christianity's Dangerous Idea:
The Protestant Revolution — A History from the Sixteenth Century to the Twenty-First
by:Alister E. McGrath

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church does not kick anyone "out of all christendom". The Catholic Church simply follows scripture: if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. The excommunicated can still become a Protestant and practice whatever whim of doctrine they choose. And there are a lot to choose from....HOWEVER.....They just can't be a member of The Church until they repent.

Should The Church apologize for following scripture? Or should the Presbyterian church be held accountable for NOT following scripture?

Curious Mary

Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council.

Here is a link to the Lateran IV Constitution. Can you show me in there where they call for the "extermination of heretics"? I can't find it.

Fordham - a Jesuit web site and university.
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp
Internet History Sourcebooks Project

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

====================================
But no matter we can just all agree they were in gross error - right? let bygones be bygones.

Some folks would like to put a happy face on "exterminate" to simply mean "steal all their lands and property and chase them out of the nation at the point of a sword/gun" -- well "whatever".
===========================



My main question is - how in the world does it occur to you to want to compare the Catholic method of dealing with differences/dissent/opposition with someone today who has a difference with Calvinist teaching at some point?

I don't understand your question. Could you rephrase it?
Curious Mary

When we read your quote above - we see you drawing attention to the way the RCC deals with those who differ -- when we read Lateran IV we see quite a different history in that regard. Curious as to why you are drawing our attention to this detail.

 

[Jun2u]

The fact REMAINS that the Bible NEVER says that you or ANYBODY ELSE was saved before the foundations of the world.

Most definitely, every child of God is saved before the foundation of the world! This is the error of your church’s teaching! How did the Old Testament believers become saved if Christ died in 33 A.D. and NOT before the foundation of the world?

Did you know that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission (of sin)?” Hebrews 9:22. Did you know that a testator of a will (covenant, testament) must be dead before the will can be enforced and not while the testator is still living? Same as in our court system.

ONLY Mary is given this title in ALL of Scripture.[/I][/SIZE]

As usual, you don’t know your Bible. Jesus gave the answer in Luke 11:27-28 which reads:

27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, What was the response?
28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

As for saying that you WILL go to heaven upon death is very presumptuous.
Even Paul didn’t make this claim.

Really? Why do you insist on being proven wrong?

Paul indeed assures the child of God that he will go to be with the Lord upon death in 2 Corinthians 5:8 which reads:

“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” [paraphrased].

[QUOTE="BreadOfLife, post: 457647, member: 7345"]We Catholics have a moral certitude of salvation and understand that it is something that requires our cooperation with God’s grace to the end.[/QUOTE]

I feel so sad for you because time and again you prove yourself wrong!!!

If you believe God’s free salvation requires man’s cooperation, that means no one will get one iota closer to God, because Scripture teaches that to become saved God has to draw that individual and then given to Jesus to redeem his sins on the cross. According to your theology man is the final kingmaker!

But have you even ever read Ezekiel 36:24-36 where God is the doer and never man?

I suggest you read Ezekiel 36 and 37. You might learn a thing or two about God who is the only giver of all good things especially salvation!

To God Be The Glory

 

[Jun2u]

When two people disagree, there is no law that says one of them has to be right, and the other, wrong. Nor is there a law that says either of them has to be right or wrong.

Consider the following Scripture verses…

Galatians 1:8-12
8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other Gospel unto you than that we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10) For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ
11) But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The major Protestant denominations disagree on how one obtains salvation, however, they were guided by the same Holy Spirit. How do we rectify this difference that effects our salvation?

Mary

I'm not sure where you got this idea. This is one thing the major denominations do agree on. You asked for a definition of basic Bible doctrine. That's usually in the form of a statement of faith. I'll post one when I have time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Most definitely, every child of God is saved before the foundation of the world! This is the error of your church’s teaching! How did the Old Testament believers become saved if Christ died in 33 A.D. and NOT before the foundation of the world?

Did you know that “without the shedding of blood there is no remission (of sin)?” Hebrews 9:22. Did you know that a testator of a will (covenant, testament) must be dead before the will can be enforced and not while the testator is still living? Same as in our court system.

WRONG.

NOBODY was saved at the Crucifixion. It is our cooperation with the GRACE from that even that saves us. Coming to faith is OUR decision to make and we cannot be saved unless we COOPERATE with God’s grace to believe and have true faith.

As usual, you don’t know your Bible. Jesus gave the answer in Luke 11:27-28 which reads:
27) And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, What was the response?
28) But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Apparently YOU don’t understand what Jesus was telling the woman here.

He wasn’t scolding her or denigrating His mother. He was telling the woman that His mother’s OBEDIENCE to Go is what she should be praising and NOT the mere fact that she physically nurtured Him.

It went right OVER your head . . .

Really? Why do you insist on being proven wrong?

Paul indeed assures the child of God that he will go to be with the Lord upon death in 2 Corinthians 5:8 which reads:
“To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” [paraphrased].

WRONG.

Paul NEVER said this. He said, “I would RATHER be absent from the body and be with the Lord.” This is a common Protestant mistake.

READ your Bible and stop inventing Scripture . . .

I feel so sad for you because time and again you prove yourself wrong!!!

If you believe God’s free salvation requires man’s cooperation, that means no one will get one iota closer to God, because Scripture teaches that to become saved God has to draw that individual and then given to Jesus to redeem his sins on the cross. According to your theology man is the final kingmaker!
But have you even ever read Ezekiel 36:24-36 where God is the doer and never man?

I suggest you read Ezekiel 36and 37. You might learn a thing or two about God who is the only giver of all good things especially salvation!
To God Be The Glory

Soooooo, YOU don’t have to “accept Christ”??
You can reject Him all of your life and STILL be saved??

Ummmmmm, talk about living a LIE . . .

 

[Willie T]

Two goats butting heads, and BOTH of them so far off the mark it is unbelievable.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Two goats butting heads, and BOTH of them so far off the mark it is unbelievable.

Then, please - enlighten us.
Better yet, just enlighten ME.

How am I "off the mark"?

 

[Jun2u]

NOBODY was saved at the Crucifixion. It is our cooperation with the GRACE from that even that saves us. Coming to faith is OUR decision to make and we cannot be saved unless we COOPERATE with God’s grace to believe and have true faith.

Sure there were! All the believers were saved at the cross (Matthew 1:21) Without shedding of blood there is no remission for sin! But no one can be saved by cooperation either because God is the only Saviour in the world (1 John 4:14).

Scripture teaches there is NONE that seeketh after God NO, NOT ONE (Romans 3:10-11). “No one seeks God” is God’s assessment of the human race.

Anyone that says man is saved by cooperation or any other means except by God, is a liar!!!

He wasn’t scolding her or denigrating His mother. He was telling the woman that His mother’s OBEDIENCE to Go is what she should be praising and NOT the mere fact that she physically nurtured Him.

It does not matter how you add or subtract from the word of God, Luke 11:27-28 is self-explanatory. The problem is you believe that your church is the pillar and ground of the truth and unbeknown to you Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me

Those who have an ear, let him hear!

Paul NEVER said this. He said, “I would RATHER be absent from the body and be with the Lord.” This is a common Protestant mistake.

Same difference!

Soooooo, YOU don’t have to “accept Christ”??

To accept Christ in order to become saved is NOT the Gospel of the Bible as most believe! Remember Romans 3 above!

THE ONLY WAY ANYONE CAN BECOME SAVED IS GOD HAS TO DRAW THAT PERSON (John 6:44), AND THEN GIVEN TO JESUS FOR THE REDEMPTION OF HIS SINS (Matthew 1:21).

You can reject Him all of your life and STILL be saved??

Ummmmmm, talk about living a LIE . . .

Have you NOT read about the thief on the cross who was saved an hour or two before death???

Grace and salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

To God Be The Glory

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sure there were! All the believers were saved at the cross (Matthew 1:21) Without shedding of blood there is no remission for sin! But no one can be saved by cooperation either because God is the onlySaviour in the world (1 John 4:14).

Scripture teaches there is NONE that seeketh after God NO, NOT ONE (Romans 3:10-11). “No one seeks God” is God’s assessment of the human race.

Anyone that says man can be saved by cooperation and by any other means except by God, is a liar!!!

And anybody who says that they can openly REJECT Jesus and still be saved is a LIAR.
Faith in Christ requires out COOPERATION with God’s grace.

This is why James says not to simply be HEARERS of the Word – but DOERS of the Word (James 1:22).
This is why Paul says that we must have faith WORKING through love (Gal. 5:6).

Same difference!

Uhhhhhh – NO, it’s not.

Paul NEVER insinuates that to be absent from the body IS to be present with the Lord.
He simply said he would RATHER be with the Lord.

You Protestants ADDED to Scripture what is NOT there . . .

To accept Christ in order to become saved is NOT the Gospel of the Bible as most believe! Remember Romans 3 above!
THE ONLY WAY ANYONE CAN BECOME SAVED IS GOD HAS TO DRAW THAT PERSON (John 6:44), AND THEN GIVEN TO JESUS FOR THE REDEMPTION OF HIS SINS (Matthew 1:21).

WRONG.

That’s how we come to believe – that’s NOT how we’re saved.

Jesus redeemed (pid for) EVERY person who ever live or ever WILL live.
ALL are redeemed – but NOT all are saved. That takes faith, repentance, and Baptism (Mark 18:16, Acts 2:38).

In other words, my disobedient friend – it takes OUR cooperation with God’s grace.

Have you NOT read about the thief on the cross who was saved an hour or two before death???
Grace and salvation is a free gift and cannot be earned.

The Thief DIDN’T reject Him. The Thief didn’t “Earn” anything.
The Thief repented and EXPRESSED faith in Him.

In other words – he COOPERATED with God’s grace – as we ALL must . . .

 

[CoreIssue]

This manure pile is so full of holes and dishonesty - you should be ASHAMED and embarrassed for posting it.
I know that I'm embarrassed FOR you. NOT sure who this moron is but Brian Schwertley doesn't know much about the Word of God . . .

Let's start with the title "Human Tradition Nullifies the Word of God".
WHERE does he get this asinine belief?? Jesus didn't condemn tradition - but ONLY the traditions that nullified the Word of God.
In other words - He was chastising the pharisees for putting THEIR rules ABOVE God's Word. He wouldn't have had ANY problem with their traditions if they hadn't judged the people by THEM instead of by God's Law.

Your boob of an author claims, "Scripture condemns all human traditions" - and NOWHERE does Jesus even IMPLY this. If this were true - that laundry list of Protestant traditions I posted would be an abomination before God. Do YOU believe that they are??

He stupidly goes on to say that Catholics are wrong for teaching that works are an essential ELEMENT of faith (James 2:14-26) by stating that Paul teaches that we are justified by faith - APART from works of the Law. Paul isn't talking about works of faith - but works of the LAW - the MOSAIC LAW.

He goes onto claim that Mary had "other children" after Jesus - yet the Bible is SILENT about this - and he offers ZERO evidence for this false claim.

His understanding of Matt. 23 and Jesus's prohibition on calling men "Father" above our Father in Heaven is NON-EXISTENT.
Jesus DIDN'T forbid the use of this word for men on earth. He was telling the people NOT to consider men like the Pharisees their "Fathers" who were placing themselves ABOVE our Father in Heaven.
Consider the following passages:

- Jesus said, “Your FATHER Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56).
- St. Stephen refers to "our FATHER Abraham," (Acts 7:2).
- St. Paul speaks of "our FATHER Isaac” (Romans 9:10).
- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15).
- Honor your FATHER and mother (Exod. 20:12).

I can go on for days but this author's ignorance is ASTOUNDING . . .

Calling Abraham and Isaac FATHER is a genealogical term, not a spiritual one. As in when referring to all male parent.


- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15). Is figurative, most assuredly not the catholic use nor a title.

Did Mary have any children other than Jesus? If so, how can she be the eternal virgin?

The astounding ignorance here is from you BoL that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Calling Abraham and Isaac FATHER is a genealogical term, not a spiritual one. As in when referring to all male parent.

- For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15). Is figurative, most assuredly not the catholic use nor a title.

Did Mary have any children other than Jesus? If so, how can she be the eternal virgin?

The astounding ignorance here is from you BoL that.

WRONG again.

We call our Priests "Father" in the SAME way that Paul called himself "Father" to the Corinthians.
You don't have a Scriptural leg to stand on.

As for Mary having "Other" children - provide me with the verse and I'll concede defeat. . .

 

[Marymog]

Lateran IV calls for the "extermination of heretics" -- it is a supposedly infallible ecumenical council.

Fordham - a Jesuit web site and university.
FORDHAM – (Jesuit)

The Fourth Lateran Council, the council that dogmatized transubstantiation, offered indulgences to those who would "exterminate heretics" and participate in a Crusade. Since this council refers to the RCC's influence over the state (John 19:11), it points to the fact that the state was acting at the command of the RCC. The council declared (http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

CANON 3
“Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath. But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff [the Pope], that he may declare the ruler's vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action. The same law is to be observed in regard to those
who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land.”

====================================
But no matter we can just all agree they were in gross error - right? let bygones be bygones.

Some folks would like to put a happy face on "exterminate" to simply mean "steal all their lands and property and chase them out of the nation at the point of a sword/gun" -- well "whatever".
===========================.

Hello.

Now I see where you got your translation from: Disciplinary Decrees of the General Councils by H.J. Schroeder.

You are right. That is how Schroeder translated that sentence from LATIN to English. A better translation would read expel from the lands (territories) and when one puts Canon 3 IN CONTEXT one can see how that translation fits better. Exterminate also means kick out/remove etc.

Originally, to exterminate something was to banish it or drive it away. And it is this meaning that can be found in the Latin origin of "exterminate." "Exterminate" comes from "exterminatus," the past participle of exterminare, meaning "to drive beyond the boundaries." The Latin word exterminare was formed from the prefix ex- ("out of" or "outside") and "terminus" ("boundary"). Not much more than a century after its introduction to English, "exterminate" came to denote destroying or utterly putting an end to something. And that's the use with which the word is usually employed today.

But don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself: Fourth Council of the Lateran - Wikipedia
http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/3canon_b.html
Lateran 4 - 1215
Fourth Lateran Council : 1215 Council Fathers - Papal Encyclicals

Thank goodness we talked about this. Now you can stop believing such nonsense. ;)

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I'm not sure where you got this idea. This is one thing the major denominations do agree on. You asked for a definition of basic Bible doctrine. That's usually in the form of a statement of faith. I'll post one when I have time.

Hi PW....

I "got this idea" from studying all the different Protestant beliefs. They all have variant views on salvation. That is why the Protestant Churches keep splintering. I would like to draw you attention to the Calvinist–Arminian debate as an example. The splintering of the Protestant churches include conflicting definitions of depravity, predestination, atonement and most pointedly justification.

I suspect you may be suggesting that they all believe in Salvation by Faith Alone?

Mary