Removal Theology not Replacement Theology

[bbyrd009]

kurios is just a title of respect to Greeks, and Boaz and any in a position of authority are called kurios in Scripture that has been handled by Greeks, which was translated into the lxx OT, as @gadar perets and others have made quite plain, if the many discussions on google do not. Gadar calls them errors which i don't know about that, but it is obvious that an ancient Greek mind would not consider kurios to be a name of God, and having lost the argument on one thread it is just now being exported to another imo

 

[Dave L]

kurios is just a title of respect to Greeks, and Boaz and any in a position of authority are called kurios, which was translated into the lxx OT, as @gadar perets and others have made quite plain, if the many discussions on google do not. Gadar calls them errors which i don't know about that, but it is obvious that an ancient Greek mind would not consider kurios to be a name of God, and having lost the argument on one thread it is just now being exported to another imo

Do you have any degrees in the original languages?

 

[bbyrd009]

our kinsman redeemer which is Christ.

should be obvious that one would not be too inclined to do greater things than that which he has just got up off his knees from "worshipping."

 

[CoreIssue]

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:29

How can the people who today occupy the land of ancient Israel be "Abraham's seed"?

Too many people claim Israel equals Church. They try to merge spiritual and physical into one big ball and call the body of Christ Church alone.
Ephesians 3
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Heirs, not heir. Two entities, not one.

Trying to spin other verses to say differently says this verse is a lie.

The bride of Christ does not include Israel, which is the wife of God the Father.

Who are the seed of Abraham?

 

[CoreIssue]

So God did not send His only begotten Son into the world?

Are you saying that the first person of the trinity created the second person? As well as a flesh being? That second person is not eternal and equally God with the second and third persons?

 

[Dave L]

Too many people claim Israel equals Church. They try to merge spiritual and physical into one big ball and call the body of Christ Church alone.
Ephesians 3
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Heirs, not heir. Two entities, not one.

Trying to spin other verses to say differently says this verse is a lie.

The bride of Christ does not include Israel, which is the wife of God the Father.

Who are the seed of Abraham?

Something you miss is that circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel under the OC. But Jesus abolished circumcision, removing the only rite that made one a physical member. So the only Israel remaining is Christ, and believers in him. Today's Jews and "Israel" are in fact gentiles whom God will reattach to Israel but only through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[Enoch111]

What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus’ descendants, just as it did to Jacob’s descendants.

This is incorrect. Here is what Paul tells us. And there is no such entity as "Jesus' descendants" -- only children of God by grace.

ROMANS 11 (PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT ISRAEL)

GOD HAS NOT CAST AWAY ISRAEL
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

THERE IS A BELIEVING REMNANT OF JEWS
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

UNBELIEVING JEWS BLINDED SPIRITUALLY AT PRESENT
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

GENTILE SALVATION TO PROVOKE JEWS TO JEALOUSLY
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: butrather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

"THEIR FULNESS" REFERS TO THE FUTURE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

PAUL DESIRES THE SALVATION OF THE JEWS
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

PAUL ANTICIPATES THE RECEIVING OF ISRAEL BY GOD
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

BELIEVING ISRAEL IS THE ROOT OF THE CHURCH
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

BELIEVING GENTILES GRAFTED INTO THE JEWISH CHURCH
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

BELIEVING GENTILES WARNED NOT TO BE HIGHMINDED
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD EXIST AT THE SAME TIME
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

PAUL ANTICIPATES THE SALVATION OF JEWS IN THE FUTURE
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

A FINITE NUMBER OF GENTILES TO BE WITHIN THE CHURCH
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

GOD HAS PROMISED THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT MUST BE FULFILLED
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

GOD WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT THIS
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

GENTILES ARE BEING SAVED BY GRACE ("MERCY")
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

JEWS TO BE SAVED BY GRACE ("MERCY") JUST LIKE GENTILES
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

There are numerous OT prophecies which back up this teaching and which are not being discussed by Christians.

 

[brakelite]

Are you saying that the first person of the trinity created the second person?

The Bible says begotten, not created.

That second person is not eternal and equally God with the second and third persons?

If the Son existed from all eternity past, then he cannot be a son can he.
And all this first, second, third person business. Where in scripture is such a concept taught?

 

[bbyrd009]

If the Son existed from all eternity past, then he cannot be a son can he.

He maybe can if He is an intrinsic concept, that of self-sacrifice inherent in God maybe

and mothers, can't think of anywhere else really

 

[CoreIssue]

The LXX uses Kurios for YHWH. So in the NT, Lord (Kurios) Jesus = YHWH. The new translations bring this to light. If Jesus is God, what's the problem?

Jesus is the name of the flesh the second person with a trinity took on at the incarnation, which did not exist in the OT.

You are trying to credit Jesus Christ was something in the old testament when he did not exist.

Lord refers to the full Godhead, not a single member.

Nor do we use the LXX.

 

[CoreIssue]

The Bible says begotten, not created.


If the Son existed from all eternity past, then he cannot be a son can he.
And all this first, second, third person business. Where in scripture is such a concept taught?

Well, all three are seen with Abram and Genesis 1. Elohim is a unity of 3 or more in Hebrew.

The second person of the Trinity is never called the Son. Only his incarnate flesh.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Many find fault with those who claim Christendom is biblical Israel. Saying God did not replace Israel with the Church. This is true but it shows a misunderstanding of Israel's true identity.

“Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet [Christ]. You must obey him in everything.. Every person who does not obey that prophet will be destroyed and thus removed from the people [Israel].’” Ac 3:22–23

The church did not replace Israel. The Church is Israel. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. Romans 11:17.

And, for the sake of the fathers, God reattaches the broken off but only through faith in Christ. For this Paul uses himself as an example, Romans 11:1–5. And as we preach the gospel to all nations until the end of the world Matthew 28:20 in this way, all Israel, believing Jew and gentile, will be saved Romans 11:26.

The only hesitation I have with your OP is the “Many find fault with those who claim Christendom is biblical Israel.” Religion gives Christendom a bad name, maybe? Christendom as a whole seems to have become religious...or stand for religion(s). Baptist...I don’t know all the others.

The body of Christ...His church. We see the tent in the OT same as the new. Replacement theology ... sounds as if we replaced Abraham but God promised Abraham children. God promised Abraham and His seed an heritage. We are a part of the heritage of that seed but it is a spiritual heritage for His great name sake. Blended into one...collected, JOINED into a untied body of ONE which is Christ. It leaves off the flesh and what the flesh can do to enter into Christ. I could be wrong but I also believe many are watching the wrong Israel. It is the Spiritual Israel we are told to bring those poor in spirit, broken, hungry, and thirsty to that they(born agin from above) will never be naked, hungry or thirsty again in the Spirit of Christ. The physical Israel is dead and can’t repair or restore man to God. The Spiritual Israel does restore...it is Home.

Genesis 50:15-20
[15] And when Joseph's brethren saw that their father was dead, they said, Joseph will peradventure hate us, and will certainly requite us all the evil which we did unto him. [16] And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying, [17] So shall ye say unto Joseph, Forgive, I pray thee now, the trespass of thy brethren, and their sin; for they did unto thee evil: and now, we pray thee, forgive the trespass of the servants of the God of thy father. And Joseph wept when they spake unto him. [18] And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. [19] And Joseph said unto them, Fear not: for am I in the place of God? [20] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

 

[Phoneman777]

Too many people claim Israel equals Church. They try to merge spiritual and physical into one big ball and call the body of Christ Church alone.
Ephesians 3
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Heirs, not heir. Two entities, not one.

Trying to spin other verses to say differently says this verse is a lie.

The bride of Christ does not include Israel, which is the wife of God the Father.

Who are the seed of Abraham?

It is a mystery to me how this verse you quote - Ephesians 3:6 - which contains no less than three references to singularity ("together", "together", together") is interpreted as to mean separateness ("two entities, not one").

Why build up the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile when Jesus has torn it down?

Why insist that there is Jew and Greek when the Bible says "neither Jew nor Greek" and that "we are all ONE in Christ Jesus"?

Dispensationalism is the lie.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

should be obvious that one would not be too inclined to do greater things than that which he has just got up off his knees from "worshipping."

On his knees “serving”...John 13:3-5
[3] Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; [4] He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself. [5] After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.

 

[CoreIssue]

It is a mystery to me how this verse you quote - Ephesians 3:6 - which contains no less than three references to singularity ("together", "together", together") is interpreted as to mean separateness ("two entities, not one").

Why build up the middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile when Jesus has torn it down?

Why insist that there is Jew and Greek when the Bible says "neither Jew nor Greek" and that "we are all ONE in Christ Jesus"?

Dispensationalism is the lie.

Team, partnership, committee, council are other examples of individuals working in unity but never becoming a singular individual.

The verses about the body of Christ. Not the Church, which you are referencing.

It's simple English, rules of grammar and everyday communication.

 

[Phoneman777]

This is incorrect. Here is what Paul tells us. And there is no such entity as "Jesus' descendants" -- only children of God by grace.

ROMANS 11 (PAUL SPEAKS ABOUT ISRAEL)

GOD HAS NOT CAST AWAY ISRAEL
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

THERE IS A BELIEVING REMNANT OF JEWS
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

UNBELIEVING JEWS BLINDED SPIRITUALLY AT PRESENT
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day. 9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

GENTILE SALVATION TO PROVOKE JEWS TO JEALOUSLY
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: butrather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

"THEIR FULNESS" REFERS TO THE FUTURE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

PAUL DESIRES THE SALVATION OF THE JEWS
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

PAUL ANTICIPATES THE RECEIVING OF ISRAEL BY GOD
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

BELIEVING ISRAEL IS THE ROOT OF THE CHURCH
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

BELIEVING GENTILES GRAFTED INTO THE JEWISH CHURCH
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

BELIEVING GENTILES WARNED NOT TO BE HIGHMINDED
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

THE GOODNESS AND SEVERITY OF GOD EXIST AT THE SAME TIME
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

PAUL ANTICIPATES THE SALVATION OF JEWS IN THE FUTURE
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

A FINITE NUMBER OF GENTILES TO BE WITHIN THE CHURCH
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

"ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED" AT THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

GOD HAS PROMISED THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

THE ABRAHAMIC COVENANT MUST BE FULFILLED
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

GOD WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND ABOUT THIS
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

GENTILES ARE BEING SAVED BY GRACE ("MERCY")
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

JEWS TO BE SAVED BY GRACE ("MERCY") JUST LIKE GENTILES
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

There are numerous OT prophecies which back up this teaching and which are not being discussed by Christians.

How can you argue simultaneously that a "remnant" of Israel is to be grafted in and at the same time claim "all Israel shall be saved"?

How ridiculous of Paul to speak of any Israelite "remnant" if eventually "all" Israelites will be saved. It makes no sense.

What does make sense is correctly interpreting verse 26 ("all Israel shall be saved") to mean that "Israel" refers to the church in which both classes - the natural and unnatural branches - are to be attached to the Vine Jesus and saved in the end in Spiritual Israel - the only Israel that exists now or will ever.

 

[CoreIssue]

How can you argue simultaneously that a "remnant" of Israel is to be grafted in and at the same time claim "all Israel shall be saved"?

How ridiculous of Paul to speak of any Israelite "remnant" if eventually "all" Israelites will be saved. It makes no sense.

What does make sense is correctly interpreting verse 26 ("all Israel shall be saved") to mean that "Israel" refers to the church in which both classes - the natural and unnatural branches - are to be attached to the Vine Jesus and saved in the end in Spiritual Israel - the only Israel that exists now or will ever.

Will all Israel be saved in the end times?

 

[Phoneman777]

Team, partnership, committee, council are other examples of individuals working in unity but never becoming a singular individual.

The verses about the body of Christ. Not the Church, which you are referencing.

It's simple English, rules of grammar and everyday communication.

Committees, councils, teams, or partnerships do not claim all gender, positional, or theological walls have been broken down into insignificance. To the contrary, in today's hyper-sensitive world of political correctness, doing so can get you fired, banned, and even jailed.

However, the Bible repeatedly makes it clear that God no longer makes any distinction between any of that and is absolutely no respecter of persons - there is only the saved and the lost.

No Jews.
No Gentiles.
No males.
No females.
No respect of wealth, education, stature, position.
None.

God never once gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for disobedience EXCEPT they had first repented of the sins, so why do so many think the events of 1948 were God ordained?

 

[CoreIssue]

Committees, councils, teams, or partnerships do not claim all gender, positional, or theological walls have been broken down into insignificance. To the contrary, in today's hyper-sensitive world of political correctness, doing so can get you fired, banned, and even jailed.

However, the Bible repeatedly makes it clear that God no longer makes any distinction between any of that and is absolutely no respecter of persons - there is only the saved and the lost.

No Jews.
No Gentiles.
No males.
No females.
No respect of wealth, education, stature, position.
None.

God never once gathered Israel back to the land after scattering them for disobedience EXCEPT they had first repented of the sins, so why do so many think the events of 1948 were God ordained?

Spiritually in the Church.

You need to learn the difference between Body of Christ and Church.

The Rebirth of Israel

 

[bbyrd009]

On his knees “serving”...John 13:3-5

diff "his," sorry, so i kind of lost your point there