And you didn't answer my question earlier.
Are demons considered righteous and friends of God in James 2:23?
No, because demons are not people.. well, aside from Lindsay Lohan.
Blotted out of The Book Of Life?
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And you didn't answer my question earlier.
Are demons considered righteous and friends of God in James 2:23?
No, because demons are not people.. well, aside from Lindsay Lohan.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I know they teach the Trinity...that will never change...it is foundational. I will ask about the soul
I appreciate your reply and your insight. When it comes to Jesus, God was His True Father, not Joseph. If Jesus was of Joseph's own human seed then Christ would not have been blameless/spotless. The Holy Spirit had to conceive Him. Jesus was fully human and He was also fully God. Every human who is descended from Adam takes on a sin nature. Jesus did not have a sin nature passed from Adam.
So that point actually proves total depravity, humans are so undone that Joseph seed would not have cut it. The virgin birth is important because Jesus had to be free from the sin nature passed on by Adam.
1 Cor. 15:22 - For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 8:7 - The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
Everything about man is rebellious against God.
We are all equally dead in sin. Why is it that you repented? What made you feel convicted?
If God did not convict man, how many Christians would be in the world? None.
Yes, God is love but that is not the only emotion He feels. He does get angry, He does hate, and we have every reason to have a deep reverence for God instead of pulling the "love card" every chance we get believing that is all He is or to base every thought of Him we have on that.
Hebrews 10:31- It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Phoneman777
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Y'know, this is getting tiring. Genesis 2:7 plainly says that the Soul IS Man, not one of three parts of man. You will search in vain to find more than two parts in that verse, which are "Body" and "Breath/Spirit of Life".
Oh, so you think the "spirit of man" refers to "YOUR SPIRIT" and not "GOD'S SPIRIT"? Well, since the verse says the "spirit of man" is "the candle of the Lord that searches the heart", that must mean "your man spirit" searches your heart, right? Does "your man spirit" know that your heart is "deceitful about all things and desperately wicked"? No, Stranger, the "spirit of man" in this verse is not what you believe is "your man spirit", it's God's Holy Spirit in man and is one of the two "components" of man - the Spirit of Life and the Body - which Genesis 2:7 says join together to make the "Whole" - the Living Soul aka Man aka Human Being aka Person.
No, Body + Breath/Spirit of Life = Living Soul
You just keep making it up as you go. I've never said "man is body and soul. I say what Genesis 2:7 says: Body + Breath/Spirit of Life = Living Soul
The only thing I fear is people like you who run around with a questionable grasp of the English language trying to instruct others with an even more questionable grasp on what the Bible actually teaches.
Two different phrases here: (1) "...of the soul and spirit" (2) "...of the joints and marrow". The verse plainly say that the spirit (a component) can be divided from the soul (the whole) just as surely as the marrow (a component) can be divided from the joint (the whole), thus proving that the "spirit" and the "soul" are not the same thing, as popularly taught.
Yes, eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. And just what is the punishment for "the wages of sin"? Eternal torment? No, I'm pretty sure it's says "death" in Romans 6:23. The eternal punishment for the wicked is eternal death from which there'll be no resurrection.
Where exactly does it say "eternal torment"? (Just kidding, it's not there.)
Here's what God says about the punishment of the wicked: "The wages of sin is death" (not eternal torment). I only know what God tells me in His Word.
They falsely accused Stephen, they falsely accused Paul, they falsely accused Jesus...nbd.
So, 'eternal judgment" means God will for eternity be slamming a gavel down and saying "order in court, order the court"? And "eternal redemption" means that Jesus is going to redeem us and redeem us over and over for all eternity?
"Blue Letter Bible" is a great website to look up Greek words like "aionios" and discover that "forever" can also mean "all the days of life", which means that the wicked will be tormented "all the days of life"...until their life is over...and they die the Second Death...and eternal death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.
Your right, there's nothing any of us can do to change the fact that "forever" here in Revelation 14:10-11 means "undefined...but not endless".
You do realize that Matthew says Jesus "spake to the multitudes in parable, and without a parable spake He not unto them"?
And when the real Lazarus rose from the dead, and the Jews went away in unbelief plotting to kill both Jesus and Lazarus, the people remembered the last words of Abraham in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: "...if they will not believe Moses and the prophets, they will not believe though one rise from the dead."
You claim to be wiser than Solomon. "Hades" is real and means "the grave" or "place of the dead" but no one is "experiencing" it because they are dead, and Solomon says "the dead know not anything".
The only thing about "Abraham's bosom" that people are sure about is that it is a parabolic symbol that requires interpretation...which adds to how asinine your argument is by claiming a passage that is so filled with symbolic elements that, if interpreted literally, are so contrary to other parts of Scripture, is not a parable.
There's nothing in all of Scripture that says those who are dead have "bodies", spiritual or otherwise. On the contrary, Paul says those who are between the bodies we have now and the glorified bodies we get later are "naked" but you say naked dead folks have bodies? Sounds like first rate, creative theology to me.
The only thing I reject are your wrongly interpreted ideas about Scripture.
What "torment section"? Hades is called "the land of forgetfulness" and "darkness" and "the grave" and "silence". Does that sound like anyone is being tormented? How is it the Rich Man is supposed to be in Hades, the "land of forgetfulness" and "silence" and "darkness" but he can see Abraham and Lazarus, remembers who they are, and is screaming in flames of torment? (pssssst.....unless it is a parable:))
I love how you keep harmonizing all the elements of Luke 16 spoken by Jesus that are contrary to the rest of Scripture by saying, "It's there in Luke 16" - while totally unconcerned with how contradictory those elements remain if you take Jesus' words literally, rather than understanding that He was speaking a parable that must be interpreted.
As if the "familiar spirit" there referred to was not the "spirit" that the witch brought up - very narrow minded, I think.
Solomon said the dead don't know anything, so unless Solomon is a fraud, Moses was very much alive when he appeared to Jesus - which means he got the glorified body Paul says is granted to those who are resurrected. I'm pretty sure Elijah's body would have burned up in the fiery chariot, if it too wasn't glorified.
When the symbolism of the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is Scripturally interpreted, it has everything to do with the kingdom of God - being taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles.
Question: If the penalty for our sin is an eternity alive, not dead, in flames of torment, and the only way for us to escape that penalty is if Jesus suffers that penalty instead of us, where would Jesus have to spend eternity?
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Phoneman777 Concerning post #424
Body plus the breath of God produces the soul. Body, soul, and spirit. Pretty simple really.
(Prov. 20:23) says 'spirit of man'. Thus it speaks to the spirit of man. Which means man has a spirit.
Concerning (Heb. 4:12), again, it doesn't say 'dividing asunder of soul and spirit, 'as' or 'like' the dividing of joints and marrow'. It says, 'dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow'. In other words soul, spirit, and body.
No amount of twisting scripture can change what Paul says in (1 Thess. 5:23) "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless...."
Concerning parables, I already showed you. (Matt. 13:34) is understood in light of (Matt. 13:11). The parables Jesus spoke of were parables concerning the mystery form of the kingdom of God which was now taken from them. See (Matt. 19). Great multitudes were addressed by Jesus and He was not speaking in parables. And the story Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. The Lazarus who was raised, and the Lazarus who was a beggar at the rich mans gate, are not the same Lazarus.
(Rev. 14:10-11) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,...." None of your Greek gymnastics can change this statement.
Here is what Solomon said. (Ecc. 9:5-6) "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Did you catch that last phrase, 'done under the sun'. That is the emphasis Solomon is addressing here. Life under the sun. He is not addressing life after death. No wonder you don't like to give the address of the verses you like to quote. It doesn't take much to see how perverted your interpretation of them has become.
The only reason you claim the place called 'Abrahams bosom' is a parable is because you don't want to believe it. This colors all of your method of interpretation of the Scripture. If you don't want to believe it, just symbolize it into something else that fits what you want to believe. Spiritualize it away with a wave of the hand. I have no problem believing what occurred between Lazarus and the rich man occurred just like it is recorded. No need for it to be a parable. You don't want to believe it because it destroys your 'man is dead once he is dead' theology. So you call it a parable.
You constant dependence on (Ecc. 9:5), "...but the dead know not anything...." has been explained by (9:6), "...in anything that is done under the sun." Your house of cards has fallen down with just a little reading of the Scripture. Again, no wonder you don't like to quote the verses you want to use. If you have to be that deceptive concerning what is said in the Scripture, that should tell you that you need to change what you have believed.
Hell or the Lake of Fire are places. They are the places the unbelieving go to after death or after death and judgement. Though Jesus died and paid the price of sin for all, He did not do so as an unbeliever. He was the Son of God, and always was of God. Thus, though He died, He was resurrected as it was impossible for the grave to hold Him. (Acts 2:24). Though He died, it is equally impossible for His place to be Hell or the Lake of Fire.
So, are you saying Jesus did not pay the penalty of sin because He has risen from the dead and lives?
Stranger
Body plus the breath of God produces the soul. Body, soul, and spirit. Pretty simple really.
(Prov. 20:23) says 'spirit of man'. Thus it speaks to the spirit of man. Which means man has a spirit.
Concerning (Heb. 4:12), again, it doesn't say 'dividing asunder of soul and spirit, 'as' or 'like' the dividing of joints and marrow'. It says, 'dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow'. In other words soul, spirit, and body.
No amount of twisting scripture can change what Paul says in (1 Thess. 5:23) "...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless...."
Concerning parables, I already showed you. (Matt. 13:34) is understood in light of (Matt. 13:11). The parables Jesus spoke of were parables concerning the mystery form of the kingdom of God which was now taken from them. See (Matt. 19). Great multitudes were addressed by Jesus and He was not speaking in parables. And the story Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable. The Lazarus who was raised, and the Lazarus who was a beggar at the rich mans gate, are not the same Lazarus.
(Rev. 14:10-11) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,...." None of your Greek gymnastics can change this statement.
Here is what Solomon said. (Ecc. 9:5-6) "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Did you catch that last phrase, 'done under the sun'. That is the emphasis Solomon is addressing here. Life under the sun. He is not addressing life after death. No wonder you don't like to give the address of the verses you like to quote. It doesn't take much to see how perverted your interpretation of them has become.
The only reason you claim the place called 'Abrahams bosom' is a parable is because you don't want to believe it. This colors all of your method of interpretation of the Scripture. If you don't want to believe it, just symbolize it into something else that fits what you want to believe. Spiritualize it away with a wave of the hand. I have no problem believing what occurred between Lazarus and the rich man occurred just like it is recorded. No need for it to be a parable. You don't want to believe it because it destroys your 'man is dead once he is dead' theology. So you call it a parable.
You constant dependence on (Ecc. 9:5), "...but the dead know not anything...." has been explained by (9:6), "...in anything that is done under the sun." Your house of cards has fallen down with just a little reading of the Scripture. Again, no wonder you don't like to quote the verses you want to use. If you have to be that deceptive concerning what is said in the Scripture, that should tell you that you need to change what you have believed.
Hell or the Lake of Fire are places. They are the places the unbelieving go to after death or after death and judgement. Though Jesus died and paid the price of sin for all, He did not do so as an unbeliever. He was the Son of God, and always was of God. Thus, though He died, He was resurrected as it was impossible for the grave to hold Him. (Acts 2:24). Though He died, it is equally impossible for His place to be Hell or the Lake of Fire.
So, are you saying Jesus did not pay the penalty of sin because He has risen from the dead and lives?
Stranger
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bbyrd009
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it was pretty obviously rhetorical, or at least i thought?
no, but lots of ppl consider themselves righteous and friends of God Heb, and they are wrong, so what is the point? That was what i meant to get at with the "we" statement; of course i have no personal investment in your understanding of Word, and i don't gain anything by posting what i guess is read as an insult or something, right. So my apologies, and may your "we" bring you confidence, ok. You seem like quite a gentle soul, and imo that is a lot more important anyway
When you speak with the purpose of tempting a brother to sin, is that not the same as tempting God? I realize you were not serious in expecting him to even try to take you up on what you said, but what good purpose could it have?
What are idle words?
Do we know? You said all you have is opinions. Is it not also an opinion that you know what those are as well?
@Kristian Gamst
Welcome indeed! You seem to be our only Norwegian at the moment.
Yes, indeed, she @"ByGrace" is on the other side. We are on this side [not for OSAS]. Hopefully before we reach the end we will all be on the Lord's side.
Jesus overcame the world, but you and I have it to do. This is why looking around us in the USA with about 80% called Christian, we see primarily the devil's mess. It is because many of those who name themselves followers of Christ are more often followers of devils.
Jesus paved the Way where there was no way, but we must walk it until we reach the Light at the end of the highway of holiness. Getting off of the highway at any point along the Way is a dangerous thing to do.
Give God the glory!
God does indeed have foreknowledge of what our final end is, but we still made the decision or decisions that brought to that final end. The right to Him away and walk along our own road has always been ours. Jesus sacrifice on the cross did not remove that authority from us. Us receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit did not remove that authority from us. God gave the tools to make it to the end with Him, but we never have to pick up those tools and use them. God forces no one at any point along the Way.I don't know if you notice that the bibleverse you are quoting is not underlining Your statement. The Lord knows who are His. What does that have to do With that you cannot lose slavation/throw away the gift? Of course He knows who are His, He knows everything. But there is a big difference between KNOWING and that they never can leave. If you say to me: "I KNOW this phone is mine." Does that mean you cannot lose it? Of course not. If somebody comes and takes it, or you throw it away it doesn't matter anything if you say: "I KNOW the phone is mine." Because then it will be gone, and not Yours anymore. '
But also you have to understand the context of 2. Timothy 2,19. He is not saying that the Foundation of SALVATION is solid, but rather the Foundation that the ressurection hasn't taken Place yet (verse 18). So he is saying that the ressurection hasn't taken Place yet, and on that Foundation it stands "The Lord knows those who are His." He knows which of those who are dead will resurrect. He knows who of them is His. And even if that doesn't apply, and you still think it is talking about today, my forst answer applies.
Be blessed!
We cannot maintain our salvation, but who is in us?
"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27
He will remain in us then so long as we provide for Him a place to lay His head. Jesus is and will be the Head of the Body of Christ. We are able to be a part of the Body for as long as we remain connected to the Head by the Holy Ghost. If we break the connection, it is like cutting off the blood supply to an arm or a leg. Very soon that limb will die... gangrene... and amputation becomes necessary. The Body will be complete and healthy at the end, but we must do our part all the way to the end. When we stop and no longer look to Him we will effectively be removing ourselves.
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Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
How wrong you are.
I was tempting him to quit for real.
Because I believe for real if you are really saved, you can't do it.
You think I'm playing a game here but I'm not.
The worldly church is playing a game with the souls of man, but I am not.
No, no game,but we do disagree! I know my own testimony of where I was and where I have been and where I am. Running away from God is possible. If we do and we never return to Him we are lost. I would never quit in order to prove your point, and any sincere believer would not. Some people do get weary in well-doing and the apostle Paul has warned us about that as he warned us not to quench the Spirit. The admonitions would mean nothing to someone who had never been saved at all.
LC,
Just a couple of comments:
First of all, if you read my post no. 419 carefully, you will find NOWHERE in that post was it stated by me that Jesus was born with a sin nature! How could God have a sin nature? How could you even think I would say that? If you notice, no one else even replied to this because I'm sure everyone reading along understood that I did not say that.
I'll say it again: Jesus was created in our image. He was like us in every way except that He remained sinless. He REMAINED sinless.
Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin.
If the point is being made that He did not sin...it means that the possibility existed for Him to sin...not because He was born with the sin nature, but because He was tempted in every way as we were but did not fall into sin as we do.
The reason Jesus was not born with the sin nature is what you stated,,,God is His Father, not Joseph.
Hebrews 2:18 says:
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Jesus had to be fully human and fully God in order to be able to die for our sins and be our Mediator between us and God.
I used the example of Jesus being like us in His humanity because it does represent a problem for the theology you hold to.
If Jesus was tempted as we are, this DISPROVES total depravity, it does not prove it, as you state above.
If we are totally depraved, the only way for Jesus to be tempted in the same way that we are tempted is if he was also totally depraved. But this is clearly not the case because Jesus never sinned. Therefore, we cannot be totally depraved. Just as Jesus could resist temptation, so could we.
If YOU are correct about total depravity and Jesus WAS HUMAN, then it would mean one of the following:
- Jesus did sin.
- Jesus was not fully human and/or was not tempted in the same way we are.
Jesus was like us, and like us He had the possibility NOT TO SIN. This proves total depravity to be WRONG.
Regarding Romans 8:7...
This is true for everyone that is not born again. But the problem is still HOW does one become born again? I've given you a lot of scripture. I'll add
1 John 2:2 Jesus died FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(if they choose to accept God's grace)
2 Corinthians 6:1-2
1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain—
2 for He says,
“AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,
AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”
Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION”—
Paul URGES the Corinthians not to RECEIVE the grace of God IN VAIN. God's grace is extended to ALL, it's up to each individual person to accept it or deny it. Paul is urging the Corinthians to accept it. This shows a free will choice. God helps us by His grace to accept Him, He does not force us to accept Him since that would not be true love.
And, as always, I remind you that God wishes ALL MEN to be saved:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
And yet, by your theology, God DOES wish for many to perish.
Your theology is against everything we know about God.
Rollo Tamasi
Well-Known Member
Do
If so, you left and came back.
You did not believe and did not come back.
Impossible.
How thin is your love?
Is your love for God agape love or regular old earthly love?
We can't know every individual, but God does.
And if they truly love him, no matter what they do, he will save them.
you believe you are saved?
If so, you left and came back.
You did not believe and did not come back.
Impossible.
How thin is your love?
Is your love for God agape love or regular old earthly love?
We can't know every individual, but God does.
And if they truly love him, no matter what they do, he will save them.
Ya, they're called believers in Christ. but many choose to be enemies by not accepting His free gift
Rom 5:10 For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Rom 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
Phl 3:18 For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
yeah and the devil's mess wants you to depend on yourself to keep you saved, not the cross. God bless
Agreed. Isn't it much harder to NOT believe? Lol. If someone is truly saved...how could they even entertain the thought of walking away?? Can't imagine it.
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