If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[Philip James]

Was Ignatius

Perhaps you should read him and find out:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html

Peace!

 

[epostle1]

I never said he was.
However - as not only a contemporary of the Apostles and a STUDENT of the Apostles John - we see how the Church was forming at the end of the 1st century through his writings.
Obedience to the Bishop, obeying the clergy, the celebration of a common Eucharist - these are CATHOLIC principles. Even the TITLE of the Church - "The CATHOLIC Church" was in wide use at the time he wrote those letters.
I ALSO showed you the very Biblical origins of the title of the Catholic Church back in post #287 . . .

3 Apostles wrote 120 copies of the gospels to prepare for Pentecost, where each true believer had a copy for private interpretation. The other 9 apostles were busy inventing traditions. After the death of the last Apostle, God cancelled the office of bishop.
Don't you know ANY church history???

​

 

[Heb 13:8]

Perhaps you should read him and find out:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html

Peace!

Nah I'm ok

 

[epostle1]

Was Ignatius OSAS??? All the "catholics" on here preach non-osas. The body of Christ is the church, those who believe and confess Rom 10:9.

To your way of thinking, the body of Christ is comprised only of the good guys named in Scripture.
I challenge you to cite anyone before the 14th century that taught OSAS that was binding on all Christians. A name please, not 40 Bible quotes. Remember, Calvin wasn't born yet.

GENOCIDE IN NICARAGUA
happening NOW
pray for persecuted Christians
​

 

[Heb 13:8]

To your way of thinking, the body of Christ is comprised only of the good guys named in Scripture.

​

​

No, the body of Christ is comprised of sinners that humbled themselves before the Lord, believed and confessed. Rom 5:8.

 

[epostle1]

No, the body of Christ is comprised of sinners that humbled themselves before the Lord, believed and confessed. Rom 5:8.

Do the believing sinners who are with the Lord in heaven share a different love of God from the body of Christ on earth?
"...Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."
hmm...where have I seen those words before?

 

[BreadOfLife]

It's all religion BOL, doesn't get you any closer to heaven.

Obeying Christ doesn't get you any closer to Heaven??
That is perverse thinking.

There is NO faith without obedience, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I showed you that in 1950, pope Pius PLAINLY states that the "Roman Catholic Church" and the "Body of Christ" are one in the same and there's absolutely NO WAY anyone can read the context and come away with the idea that he was referring to just some "rite" - except if that someone simply refuses to accept facts as they are plainly given, even from the highest ranking members of their church.

Uh huh - and back in post #291 I explained to you WHY he used this incorrect nomenclature. It was an ecumenical olive branch.
The fact remains that this is not the title of the Church - and that it WAS born in Henry VIII's England to differentiate HIS version of the "Catholic" Church of England with the Catholic Church of Rome.

As I educated you in my last post - if Pius XII has literally meant "Roman Catholic Church" as the ONLY entity of the Catholic Church - he would be excluding the millions of people in the other 19 Rites which include the Melkite, Coptic, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. He may have been extending an olive branch but he didn't eject 19 Rites of the Catholic Church, Einstein.

As usual - ignorant anti-Catholics are afraid of history . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Do the believing sinners who are with the Lord in heaven share a different love of God from the body of Christ on earth?
"...Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."
hmm...where have I seen those words before?

A believer in Christ is thankful for the cross no matter where they are.

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Cor 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Obeying Christ doesn't get you any closer to Heaven??
That is perverse thinking.

There is NO faith without obedience, Einstein . . .

Our citizenship in heaven doesn't change BOL. Obeying Christ brings you closer to God. I would submit that false religions are in power now, no?

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

 

[BreadOfLife]

Our citizenship in heaven doesn't change BOL. Obeying Christ brings you closer to God. I would submit that false religions are in power now, no?

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

This is utter nonsense.
If you actually believe that our obedience is simply a tool that brings us "closer" to Christ - then you DON'T know Him.

Our obedience is ESSENTIAL for our salvation.
As a matter of fact - you CANNOT have true faith without obedience . . .

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father in heaven.

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

John 14:23
Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

Matt. 25:41-46
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not DO FOR ME.’

“Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[Heb 13:8]

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES THE WILL of my Father in heaven.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/

Our obedience is ESSENTIAL for our salvation.

No, our obedience is essential for our sanctification and discipline.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and NOT by faith alone.

to obtain Godly righteousness, not salvation.

“Then they will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life.”

When oh when will BOL wake up?

1 Jhn 5:4-5 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, our obdience is essential for our sanctification and discipline.
to obtain Godly righteousness, not salvation.

Ummmm, WHAT part of "Then they (the disobedient) will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life” do you NOT understand??

This is about SALVATION vs DAMNATION.

When oh when will BOL wake up?
1 Jhn 5:4-5 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Funny how you can post Scripture without actually reading itr.

Rev. 3: 5 states that he that overcomes will not have his name "blotted out" of the Book of Life. The fact that it CAN be blotted out means that it is not impossible.
You cannot "BLOT OUT" a name that was never there to begin with . . .

 

[Heb 13:8]

Ummmm, WHAT part of "Then they (the disobedient) will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life” do you NOT understand??

Matt 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/

Ummmm, WHAT part of "Then they (the disobedient) will go away to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT, but the righteous to eternal life” do you NOT understand??

Matt 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/

This is about SALVATION vs DAMNATION.

Right, and are you on the left or right. Are you a sheep or a goat BOL??

Rev. 3: 5 states that he that overcomes will not have his name "blotted out" of the Book of Life. The fact that it CAN be blotted out means that it is not impossible.
You cannot "BLOT OUT" a name that was never there to begin with . . .

Our names are written in the book of life upon believing and confessing, Rom 10:9.

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God bless

 

[Helen]

This is utter nonsense.
If you actually believe that our obedience is simply a tool that brings us "closer" to Christ - then you DON'T know Him.

Our obedience is ESSENTIAL for our salvation.
As a matter of

I am with @Heb 13:8 here BOL.

Obedience is not essential for salvation....but it is essential for standing in the place of the Overcomer. ( Rev 3)
I have found....that People that fight tooth and nail saying that we must do this, that or the other...do not have faith in the Perfect sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It is actually saying.. .. " Jesus did okay, but I must also do my bit to earn and keep my salvation...because Jesus did quite do it all..."

What a smack in the eye to the Love and word of God.

Now to make our personal calling and election sure ..yes, there are the things we must overcome to attain the position that we are each called to.
The is a race to be won...not against each other...but against our flesh man, our old self that wont stay dead but raises it's ugly head to drag us out of the Spirit and into the flesh.
Rev 3 again to the Overcomer. "Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." The crown is not our salvation...which is obvious in this chapter...it is our election and inheritance.

 

[Phoneman777]

Uh huh - and back in post #291 I explained to you WHY he used this incorrect nomenclature. It was an ecumenical olive branch.
The fact remains that this is not the title of the Church - and that it WAS born in Henry VIII's England to differentiate HIS version of the "Catholic" Church of England with the Catholic Church of Rome.

As I educated you in my last post - if Pius XII has literally meant "Roman Catholic Church" as the ONLY entity of the Catholic Church - he would be excluding the millions of people in the other 19 Rites which include the Melkite, Coptic, Byzantine, Maronite, etc. He may have been extending an olive branch but he didn't eject 19 Rites of the Catholic Church, Einstein.

As usual - ignorant anti-Catholics are afraid of history . . .

Do you really expect anyone to believe that a PRE-VATICAN II document from a religious body claiming there's no salvation for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the supreme authority of the pope contains any "olive branches"? And do you not understand that when Pius says "... the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing", that Pius means to say that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic church are one and the same thing?

Unless the "Mystical Body of Christ" does not refer to the entire, world, global, universal Catholic church, which even you will not deny, then according to Pius' own words, he believes the "Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic church are one and the same thing."

And if a pope's use of "Roman Catholic church" as a reference to the entire, world, global, universal Catholic church is good enough for him, then it's good enough for anyone.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am with @Heb 13:8 here BOL.

Obedience is not essential for salvation....but it is essential for standing in the place of the Overcomer. ( Rev 3)
I have found....that People that fight tooth and nail saying that we must do this, that or the other...do not have faith in the Perfect sacrifice of Christ for our sins. It is actually saying.. .. " Jesus did okay, but I must also do my bit to earn and keep my salvation...because Jesus did quite do it all..."

What a smack in the eye to the Love and word of God.

Now to make our personal calling and election sure ..yes, there are the things we must overcome to attain the position that we are each called to.
The is a race to be won...not against each other...but against our flesh man, our old self that wont stay dead but raises it's ugly head to drag us out of the Spirit and into the flesh.
Rev 3 again to the Overcomer. "Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." The crown is not our salvation...which is obvious in this chapter...it is our election and inheritance.

Sorry Grace - but this is arrogance.
We are not deserving of ANY inheritance - no matter WHAT we believe or WHAT we do.

YOU guys keep saying that there is "NOTHING" that we need to do to gain salvation - but Scripture condemns that viewpoint. We MUST be Baptized and be born again (John 3:5, Mark 16:16), we MUST pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), we MUST follow His commands, we MUST endure to the end (Matt. 24:13), we must DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

These aren't "optional" - and they absolutely demand our cooperation. Obedience is essential to faith and to our salvation. If you truly believe that you can be a disobedient servant AND be saved - then I've got some BAD news for you . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you really expect anyone to believe that a PRE-VATICAN II document from a religious body claiming there's no salvation for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the supreme authority of the pope contains any "olive branches"? And do you not understand that when Pius says "... the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing", that Pius means to say that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Catholic church are one and the same thing?

Unless the "Mystical Body of Christ" does not refer to the entire, world, global, universal Catholic church, which even you will not deny, then according to Pius' own words, he believes the "Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic church are one and the same thing."

And now you're lying.
When did I EVER say that I deny "Catholic Church"??

Besides - YOUR sentence was redundant because you said, "world, global, universal" Catholic Church. That's like saying "Catholic Catholic Catholic Catholic" Church.

And if a pope's use of "Roman Catholic church" as a reference to the entire, world, global, universal Catholic church is good enough for him, then it's good enough for anyone.

Uh-huh, soooooo, WHY hasn't it been used since - in ANY Church document??
This should be interesting . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Matt 25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/
Matt 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/sheep-wolves-illustration.26291/
Right, and are you on the left or right. Are you a sheep or a goat BOL??

You completely avoided answering the question.
I asked YOU to show me how the lesson of the Sheep and Goats - which is a lesson about OBEDIENCE - is NOT about salvation.

Now - either answer the question - or simply admit that you were wrong . . .

Our names are written in the book of life upon believing and confessing, Rom 10:9.

Rev 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

God bless

And AGAIN you are avoiding the question. WHY are you finding it so difficult to answer these questions??

I asked you HOW a name is "blotted out" if YOU claim that we cannot lose our salvation.
Please explain . . .

 

[Helen]

Sorry Grace - but this is arrogance.
We are not deserving of ANY inheritance - no matter WHAT we believe or WHAT we do.

YOU guys keep saying that there is "NOTHING" that we need to do to gain salvation - but Scripture condemns that viewpoint. We MUST be Baptized and be born again (John 3:5, Mark 16:16), we MUST pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), we MUST follow His commands, we MUST endure to the end (Matt. 24:13), we must DO the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).

These aren't "optional" - and they absolutely demand our cooperation. Obedience is essential to faith and to our salvation. If you truly believe that you can be a disobedient servant AND be saved - then I've got some BAD news for you . . .

You call it arrogance, I call it faith in what Jesus did..and did well...because it says God "saw it and was satisfied."
Oh I know about mainline doctrines...I was told all that back in the beginning when I was saved ..first a Christian. I guess you don't use the word "saved" because you don't believe that you are saved yet, it would be arrogance I guess.

So, tell me , do you feel righteous when 'you get it right' and then condemned when who have a bad day and don't act like a Christian?

I was just having this same conversation with Quietthinker .
He also believes that he can keep the commandment.
So this has nothing to do with a Protestant and Catholic argument.
Most christians believe that...

I believe by Paul's writings that because of the Spotless Blood of The Lamb,
Who took away the sin of the world and put us back into a relationship with God. When He died on the cross, it says we died with Him and were raised in Him....in Him we are perfect. That was the great legal act the Jesus paid for.
Not some half redemption...where He couldn't quite do it all...

Our position "in Him" is sinless....but we all know that our natural condition doesn't match that!

What we do now is run the race, be faithful to the end..take up our cross..
Not to earn something that He achieved for us already....we are Saved...but as Paul said " I thus run..."
Was he running to to earn salvation? NO!!
He was running for the crown of an Overcomer and the rewards which are written in Rev 3.
Which is the proof of how much we each really love God...for we do it purely to be closer to Him in the Heavenly ranks and as an Overcomer, and not about us trying to keep what He already GAVE us as a fee gift.

( not talking about or sidetracking about those who choose to turn back..that is their story, not mine ) I run my race ...I am responsible for what I do with the salvation freedom that God has been given me. And so are we all.

I do see and understand why you say what you say...I was taught and believed it for the first two decades of my spiritual life. But thankfully I finally saw the weakness in that argument the more I studied Paul... so the last 3 decades have been so much different.
You are not alone in this , the majority believes as you do. It's not a Catholic thing.
It is me who is very much minority for sure.
You see me in error, but I see you and all the rest of mainstream belief system in error. At the very least selling short all that our Saviour did because it was quite good enough after all.

But, I know that neither of us will change our position on this. :) And that is fine too...how we walk in what Jesus gave us, is ours to choose.

God bless you BOL...Thanks for your time...... Helen