If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[aspen]

Yes, Catholicism often fails to meet Protestant standards and in the case of SDA, post Protestant standards, due the fact that it is neither.

 

[Nancy]

Didn't Catholicism remove the 2nd Commandment from the Ten Commandments and then split the last one into two different commandments? It's that way the catechisms.

Yes they did...can't imagine why

 

[Philip James]

I guess that's the difference between teh religious and true believers. They all have knowledge but no love

Wow. Just wow.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, please make no mistake, I can refute anything and everything you post if I choose, just like I refuted your claim that the title "Roman Catholic Church" is not recognized by the Catholic church as an acceptable reference to it in your very public criticism for Protestants here who do use it...by posting an encyclical where the pope at that time plainly uses the term, "Roman Catholic church". You see, it's always better to allow the Papacy's own words to substantiate Protestantism's indictments of it.

A few examples of the RCC's withholding of Scripture:​

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy.

It ruled in part: Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.
------------------------------
Pope Innocent III stated in 1199: ... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faithare not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771)
-------------------------------
I could list example after example.

Uh huh - and what your abject ignorance won't allow you to understand is that:
a. As many as 90% of the general public was functionally illiterate and had ZERO use for a written Bible.

b. Bibles were HANDWRITTEN in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because of this - they were VERY expensive and VERY difficult to come by.

c. The editing and spurious copies being made of the Bible during this time by the rich, educated people who could afford them resulted in all sorts of errors and Scriptural perversions.

The declarations made by the Church were an effort to HALT these spurious copies being made - NOT to keep the Bible "away" from the public who couldn't read it anyway, Einstein . . .

Do your HOMEWORK.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Could be.
But loving people right into hell is not love.

Only believers obtain "agape" love.

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agapé) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Cor 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love (agapé) builds up.

Oh, wait, there's no hell....

Are you joking here?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes they did...can't imagine why

Uhhhh, no we didn't.
Can't imagine WHY you'd say that.

See post #230 . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey Breadman, you causing trouble again?
You know I'm OSAS.
I'm going to heaven when I die.
I think I saw your name on the limbo waiting list.

I HOPE you do - but you won't get there by being disobedient.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Wow. Just wow.

Philip, only believers obtain "agape" love.

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agapé) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Cor 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love (agapé) builds up.

Wow. Just wow. God bless.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I HOPE you do - but you won't get there by being disobedient.

No, you won't get there by unbelief. Accept Jesus now.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Didn't Catholicism remove the 2nd Commandment from the Ten Commandments and then split the last one into two different commandments? It's that way the catechisms.

Only to a Scripturally ignorant.
This is one of my FAVORITE anti-Catholic arguments, so please indulge me because this takes a little explaining . . .

In the Catholic listing, why is the 2nd Commandment of “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain” different from the Protestant version of “You shall not make unto thee any graven images”?

In Exodus 20, where we first see the list of Commandments, we read in verses 3 and 5 that this is not simply a commandment against the making of statues and images. It is clearly talking about not making gods out of them and not bowing to them and worshiping them. The Church has always condemned this practice as well.

If this were a Commandment against the creation of images and statues, then God would have violated His own law by commanding Moses just a few chapters later to create 2 golden images of Cherubim to place atop the Ark (Exod. 25:18-22). His supposed hypocrisy would have also extended to commanding Moses later on to create a bronze serpent and place it on a pole so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Num. 21:8-9).

We also read other examples of God being pleased with the creation of statues (I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). When we read those verses in context, we see that God’s prohibition is against making idols to WORSHIP and not the creation of images. This is ALL covered in the Catholic rendering of the first Commandment about having “other gods”.

Exodus 34:28 tells us that there are “Ten” commandments, even though Bible doesn’t number them. As a matter of fact, if you were to count all of the “You shall nots” alongside the other two that command the keeping of the Sabbath and honoring your father and mother – you would wind up with at least thirteen. Numbering them depends on exactly which “You shall nots” you group together and which ones you leave separate.

Protestants usually split up the first Commandment into two and combine the last two into one, where we see a prohibition against the "coveting" of your neighbor’s wife and of his property. Women and property are NOT the same thing. Gal. 3:26-28 tells us that there is NO difference among those belong to Christ:
“For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus.”

A non-Catholic might take the position that they are simply taking the text at face value and that this is what is being taught. Oh, really? Remember that there are TWO versions of the listing of the Commandments in the Old Testament. To put them in their proper context, we need to examine BOTH listings.

In Deuteronomy 5, we see another version of the list. Here, we see a clear distinction between a man’s wife and his property. A different word for the desire of a man’s property is used than that of the desire for his wife.

Chamad (תחמד), is used to describe the coveting a man’s wife as opposed to 'Avah (תתאוה), which is used to describe the desire for a man’s property. Chamad has a connotation of sexual desire and lust, whereas, ‘Avah means to crave or to be greedy for something material.

We now see that there are two different Commandments here and NOT one jumbled, all-inclusive commandment. We must remember that in Gen. 2:24, God declared that, in the union between a husband and wife, the two become ONE flesh. Jesus reiterates this fact in Mark 10:8.

And THAT'S why Catholics and Protestants number the Commandments differently . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you won't get there by unbelief. Accept Jesus now.

And belief is NOT faith.
James 2:19 warns us that even the DEMONS believe.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Obedience (works) (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14:26).

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes they did...can't imagine why

I'll give you a hint: it's got something to do with "St. Peter's toe (formerly belonging to the god Jupiter before the nameplate was changed) having been literally kissed off by countless processions of millions of Catholic faithful.

 

[Phoneman777]

Uh huh - and what your abject ignorance won't allow you to understand is that:
a. As many as 90% of the general public was functionally illiterate and had ZERO use for a written Bible.

b. Bibles were HANDWRITTEN in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because of this - they were VERY expensive and VERY difficult to come by.

c. The editing and spurious copies being made of the Bible during this time by the rich, educated people who could afford them resulted in all sorts of errors and Scriptural perversions.

The declarations made by the Church were an effort to HALT these spurious copies being made - NOT to keep the Bible "away" from the public who couldn't read it anyway, Einstein . . .

Do your HOMEWORK.

Did you ever consider that if Bibles were allowed to be spread abroad, the illiteracy rate would have plummeted?
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

What "spurious" copies? Are you referring to the corrupted RCC MSS which great men like Erasmus exposed as such when they fled Palestine to the West and brought with them their uncorrupted MSS? It is no secret that the vast majority of MSS that exist DO NOT AGREE with RCC MSS - interestingly, the corrupted Western family MSS and the corrupted Alexandrian family MSS are just two birds of a feather, while the massive amount of BYZANTIAN MSS make up the largest group of MSS that agree one with another.
Even the 4th century saw criticism of the RCC's use of previously corrupted texts which they still try to pass off as legit.

 

[Philip James]

Philip, only believers obtain "agape" love.

That you seem to number 'religious' amongst unbelievers is your error..

Be careful how you judge...

Peace!

 

[Phoneman777]

Only to a Scripturally ignorant.
This is one of my FAVORITE anti-Catholic arguments, so please indulge me because this takes a little explaining . . .

In the Catholic listing, why is the 2nd Commandment of “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain” different from the Protestant version of “You shall not make unto thee any graven images”?

In Exodus 20, where we first see the list of Commandments, we read in verses 3 and 5 that this is not simply a commandment against the making of statues and images. It is clearly talking about not making gods out of them and not bowing to them and worshiping them. The Church has always condemned this practice as well.

If this were a Commandment against the creation of images and statues, then God would have violated His own law by commanding Moses just a few chapters later to create 2 golden images of Cherubim to place atop the Ark (Exod. 25:18-22). His supposed hypocrisy would have also extended to commanding Moses later on to create a bronze serpent and place it on a pole so that those who looked upon it would be healed (Num. 21:8-9).

We also read other examples of God being pleased with the creation of statues (I Kings 6:23-28, 9:3). When we read those verses in context, we see that God’s prohibition is against making idols to WORSHIP and not the creation of images. This is ALL covered in the Catholic rendering of the first Commandment about having “other gods”.

Exodus 34:28 tells us that there are “Ten” commandments, even though Bible doesn’t number them. As a matter of fact, if you were to count all of the “You shall nots” alongside the other two that command the keeping of the Sabbath and honoring your father and mother – you would wind up with at least thirteen. Numbering them depends on exactly which “You shall nots” you group together and which ones you leave separate.

Protestants usually split up the first Commandment into two and combine the last two into one, where we see a prohibition against the "coveting" of your neighbor’s wife and of his property. Women and property are NOT the same thing. Gal. 3:26-28 tells us that there is NO difference among those belong to Christ:
“For through faith you are all children of God in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus.”

A non-Catholic might take the position that they are simply taking the text at face value and that this is what is being taught. Oh, really? Remember that there are TWO versions of the listing of the Commandments in the Old Testament. To put them in their proper context, we need to examine BOTH listings.

In Deuteronomy 5, we see another version of the list. Here, we see a clear distinction between a man’s wife and his property. A different word for the desire of a man’s property is used than that of the desire for his wife.

Chamad (תחמד), is used to describe the coveting a man’s wife as opposed to 'Avah (תתאוה), which is used to describe the desire for a man’s property. Chamad has a connotation of sexual desire and lust, whereas, ‘Avah means to crave or to be greedy for something material.

We now see that there are two different Commandments here and NOT one jumbled, all-inclusive commandment. We must remember that in Gen. 2:24, God declared that, in the union between a husband and wife, the two become ONE flesh. Jesus reiterates this fact in Mark 10:8.

And THAT'S why Catholics and Protestants number the Commandments differently . . .

Everything you just wrote is garbage. The truth is that Catholicism's catechisms removed the Second Commandment so that image worship was established, and is why so many Catholics are SHOCKED when they begin their journey out of Catholicism.

And Catholicism split the last two so as to maintain "ten".
And they claim authority to changes God's Sabbath to the day of the sun god.

God wrote the Ten Commandments as they are given in Exodus 20 - not in RCC catechisms - in stone to show the permanence of them, and no man has the authority to change it, no matter how much it is claimed that he is "Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh."

 

[BreadOfLife]

Did you ever consider that if Bibles were allowed to be spread abroad, the illiteracy rate would have plummeted?
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."

What "spurious" copies? Are you referring to the corrupted RCC MSS which great men like Erasmus exposed as such when they fled Palestine to the West and brought with them their uncorrupted MSS? It is no secret that the vast majority of MSS that exist DO NOT AGREE with RCC MSS - interestingly, the corrupted Western family MSS and the corrupted Alexandrian family MSS are just two birds of a feather, while the massive amount of BYZANTIAN MSS make up the largest group of MSS that agree one with another.
Even the 4th century saw criticism of the RCC's use of previously corrupted texts which they still try to pass off as legit.

The spurious copies were usually in the vernacular and were unauthorized translations. By the time of the Synod of Toulouse in 1229, the Gnostic heresy of Catharism had already taken root because of unauthorized translations of Scripture being distributed.

If it hadn't been for the Church - YOUR Protestant Reformation in the 16th century would probably never have happened the way it did. Instead, there would have been an even bigger explosion of heresy and perverse doctrines floating around - and a LOT earlier.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Everything you just wrote is garbage. The truth is that Catholicism's catechisms removed the Second Commandment so that image worship was established, and is why so many Catholics are SHOCKED when they begin their journey out of Catholicism.

And Catholicism split the last two so as to maintain "ten".
And they claim authority to changes God's Sabbath to the day of the sun god.

God wrote the Ten Commandments as they are given in Exodus 20 - not in RCC catechisms - in stone to show the permanence of them, and no man has the authority to change it, no matter how much it is claimed that he is "Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh."

Sooooo, the listing in Deut. 5 is "garbage"??
It was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so I would be careful if I were YOU by calling it "garbage" . . .

I'm not surprised that this would be your response - but that's what I get for attempting to have an intellectual conversation with an "unarmed" person.

Anyway - ALL of the Scriptural, historical and linguistic facts are laid out in my last post.
You cannot get around the fact that the last 2 Commandments about coveting are actually TWO separate Commandments, as I educated you. You must take Deut. 5 in CONTEXT with Exod. 20.

 

[Triumph1300]

Are you joking here?

Lots of people on this forum don't believe in hell.
I am not one of them.

 

[Triumph1300]

with an "unarmed" person.

Cool.
I like that.

 

[Heb 13:8]

And belief is NOT faith.
James 2:19 warns us that even the DEMONS believe.

TRUE Faith = Belief + Obedience (works) (Matt. 7:21, James 2:14:26).

Well fortunately for humans they still have hope, unlike demons who preach non-osas through gullible religious minds.

James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.