Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[JesusIsFaithful]

JIF
You're super smart.
I can't believe you don't understand 2 Timothy 2:13!

It doesn't mean that even if we lose faith in Christ, He will remain faithful.

It means that God will remain faithful to HIMSELF. He decided to save humanity from the beginning and He will keep His word.

This is the faithful saying.

2 Timothy 2: 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we believe not, He still abides for why He is faithful.

That verse cannot mean what you say it means because Paul said why He is faithful; He still abides in us if for any reason we do not believe in Him any more.

BUT, IF faith is necessary for salvation, then surely if we lose faith we also lose our salvation. We can't have it both ways.

Paul gave an example of when one errs from the truth and had their faith overthrown as he points out by saying nevertheless.... thus including former believers in this call to depart from iniquity, even the iniquity of unbelief.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So who are the vessel unto honor in His House? Those who departed from iniquity?

So who are the vessels unto dishonor in His House? Those who did not depart from iniquity when the Bridegroom had come.

I'm always amazed, TTYTT, at how the eternal security believers just totally IGNORE scripture that shows a person CAN lose salvation. There are many a few posts above.

They do not understand that there are verses about being saved from being left behind to face the coming calamity of fire on the earth as being far different than actual eternal salvation by simply believing in Jesus Christ.

I won't ask this, but it would be interesting if, once in a while, someone who believes in OSAS would exegete those verses.

If we could NOT lose our salvation, why did Paul speak so much as to HOW we are to behave? ONLY for the good it gets us in this life? It seems he makes it much more important than that.

Paul speaks about this in regards to running that race to avoid being a castaway in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 just as Jesus spoke of the cutting off and that fire coming on the earth in Luke 12:40-49 just as Peter said to labor that we may be accepted of Him to escape the fire coming on the earth in 2 Peter 3rd chapter.

The one thing you have to ask Him about is why are the vessels unto dishonor are still in His House for failing to depart from iniquity?

If you read 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, He may help you to understand that although the works are destroyed, the foundation remains; although the physical body shall incur a physical death for defiling the temple of God, His seal unto redemption is not going anywhere ( Ephesians 4:30 ) because of His promise to not lose one sheep that has His seal ( John 6:39-40 ) but as it is not every one will be ready and every lost sheep will be found.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

So if a believer or former believer refuses to repent, he is to be excommunicated by the church, and if he has not repented yet, the Bridegroom will excommunicate that unrepentant brother from attending the Marriage Supper, but like He said in Matthew 18:11-14, He will get that lost sheep left behind because he has His seal, but he will miss out on the Marriage Supper, but he will be resurrected and see the King of kings upon His return after the great tribulation.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There's no such thing as works salvation!
I don't know anyone on this forum who believes we are saved by works.

We do what we do because we love God.
We may be doing exactly the same things we did before ... or maybe not; maybe we're doing more. No matter.

The point is that good deeds are spoken of by Paul and others and they are necessary, for whatever reason we may be doing them.

This goes to obedience of faith. We have faith and so we obey.
We obey because of our faith. No one is denying this.

I can only repeat that I find this important because some churches are teaching "faith only". This means that you need to walk down the isle and accept Jesus as savior and then you go on your merry way and are saved.

This is wrong.

This is what Paul said works were good for as they were profitable unto men but he was careful to maintain that works has nothing to do with obtaining salvation.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Since we had been saved by believing in Jesus Christ & that God has raised Him from the dead, we have been reconciled with God through Jesus Christ and so it stands to reason to continue in that living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ as He will help us walk in the light with Him in doing good works so that we may be fruitful & our joy may be full when the Bridegroom comes to receive us Home.

 

[Heb 13:8]

If we could NOT lose our salvation, why did Paul speak so much as to HOW we are to behave?

Because "behaving" affects sanctification and discipline, it does not remove the seed that was planted into a believer upon salvation.

Individual conception has already taken place, less you believe God is for spiritual abortion? God removing the seed of salvation because of disobedience is not biblical. Being "born of God" is a permanent condition of the heart.

1. We are heirs of His promise according to the seed
2. We are born of imperishable seed not perishable according to the seed
3. God's seed remains in them according to the seed

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

BUT, IF faith is necessary for salvation, then surely if we lose faith we also lose our salvation. We can't have it both ways.

Those who lose faith never had a conversion, never had a testimony and without a conversion the seed is never planted.

 

[Heb 13:8]

"List of chores" we try to incorporate into our thinking and daily life:

And those "chores" affect our sanctification and discipline, it does not remove the seed that was planted into a believer upon salvation.

Individual conception has already taken place, less you believe God is for spiritual abortion? God removing the seed of salvation because of disobedience is not biblical.

Being "born of God" is a permanent condition of the heart.

1. We are heirs of His promise according to the seed
2. We are born of imperishable seed not perishable according to the seed
3. God's seed remains in them according to the seed

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless

 

[Heb 13:8]

Works salvation is saying that what God did through Jesus Christ on the cross ..was not enough.

When God saw Jesus on the cross, carrying all the weight of sin..
Isaiah 53 says- " He God, saw the travail of His soul Jesus, ...and was satisfied." The debt had been paid in full.

So what is our good works?
It is the outflowing of the Christ within. We do because we love...we do not do to earn something, or even keep something.
But we do, because we love Him...not to gain something.

Good post!

Rom 8:23-25 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

2 Cor 5:2-4 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Isa 53:11
amal: trouble, labor, toil
Original Word: עָמָל
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: amal
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-mawl')
Short Definition: labor

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Nancy]

Some say that backsliders were not saved in the first place.

I believe that, only because I played Church back in the 90's, went through the motions. I left the Church and went back to the vomit that was my life for several years. Very different now, God is good.

 

[Mayflower]

• Those that believe "once saved always saved" is true (16.67%)
  
  
• Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine. (50%)
  
  
• Not sure. (33.33%)

I was raised in a Baptist church. Once saved, always saved. But these days I have gone back in forth in whether or not someone can walk away from God.

I know we will never be able to do enough on our own merit to be saved. But I don't know if someone can walk away from God...like totally denounce Jesus Christ. It will be interesting to read this thread.

 

[Dcopymope]

I was raised in a Baptist church. Once saved, always saved. But these days I have gone back in forth in whether or not someone can walk away from God.

I know we will never be able to do enough on our own merit to be saved. But I don't know if someone can walk away from God...like totally denounce Jesus Christ. It will be interesting to read this thread.

I know plenty of atheists who claimed they were once believers. But then, the typical rebuttal is that they were never believers to start with, that same old tired argument. I don't know about those people, but I don't claim to know a persons heart at any time in their lives, so I have no business pretending to know if they were ever believers.

 

[epostle1]

Because "behaving" affects sanctification and discipline, it does not remove the seed that was planted into a believer upon salvation.

Individual conception has already taken place, less you believe God is for spiritual abortion? God removing the seed of salvation because of disobedience is not biblical. Being "born of God" is a permanent condition of the heart.

1. We are heirs of His promise according to the seed
2. We are born of imperishable seed not perishable according to the seed
3. God's seed remains in them according to the seed

Gal 3:19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1Pe 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1Jo 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

God bless

Those who lose faith never had a conversion, never had a testimony and without a conversion the seed is never planted.

Anyone who is saved is saved by God’s grace. Catholics aren’t Pelagians or semi-Pelagians (as Calvinists and other Protestants often erroneously think). We agree with regard to sola gratia (grace alone). But we fallen human beings also are given the “right” by God to spurn His free grace and His salvation, which is why St. Paul so often warns us to not let that happen. We choose to cooperate or not cooperate with God’s saving grace: which alone can save us.

No one says that a prisoner who is pardoned “saved himself” because he accepted the pardon (my favorite analogy of grace and free will). We say, rather, that he was freed entirely by the pardoning governor’s “grace”. The Governor doesn’t “toy” with the prisoner and give him a few days of freedom; a taste of a free life, and then arbitrarily take it back, since he never intended to free him in the first place.

Anyone, I think, would deem that to be cruel, even perhaps sadistic. Yet Calvin and Calvinists who follow his thought don’t hesitate to apply such outrageous behavior to God Himself.

Calvin thus seems to compromise God’s love and mercy and justice on the altar of His sovereignty, whereas Catholicism (and, for that matter, Orthodoxy and most of Protestantism) holds all those important things in a proper biblical balance.

All of this speculation of Calvin’s is arguably eisegetical, and Calvin provides (at least in this section) only one unmistakable reference beyond a likely allusion to the parable of the sower (Mt 13:18-23) and passing mention of the “Abba, Father” passages (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). The concept of a “shadow” faith is merely an unsupported assumption of his own.

Calvin mentions “a taste of heavenly gifts,” which can only refer to Hebrews 6. Let’s examine this passage in context and see whether Calvin’s large conclusions are plausible, in light of it:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Keep in mind that everything stated here must apply (in Calvin’s view), to one who has never been regenerated, and who is destined to hell as a non-elect person: in fact, predestined from all eternity as a reprobate. The question is whether all these attributes make sense in terms of only a counterfeit and not the real thing.

The apostate person referred to here is said to have formerly been “enlightened” (Greek, photizo; Strong’s word #5461). When Paul uses the same word in Ephesians 1:18, it is certainly applied to a regenerate Christian:

Ephesians 1:12-19

No one says that a prisoner who is pardoned “saved himself” because he accepted the pardon (my favorite analogy of grace and free will). We say, rather, that he was freed entirely by the pardoning governor’s “grace”. The Governor doesn’t “toy” with the prisoner and give him a few days of freedom; a taste of a free life, and then arbitrarily take it back, since he never intended to free him in the first place.

Anyone, I think, would deem that to be cruel, even perhaps sadistic. Yet Calvin and Calvinists who follow his thought don’t hesitate to apply such outrageous behavior to God Himself.

Calvin thus seems to compromise God’s love and mercy and justice on the altar of His sovereignty, whereas Catholicism (and, for that matter, Orthodoxy and most of Protestantism) holds all those important things in a proper biblical balance.
A Critique of Calvinism, Dave Armstrong

 

[Heb 13:8]

But we fallen human beings also are given the “right” by God to spurn His free grace and His salvation

No, we can spurn His sanctification and discipline by quenching the spirit. Quenching the spirit is not spiritual abortion which you are implying.

Anyone, I think, would deem that to be cruel, even perhaps sadistic.

What's sadistic is you believing the seed of God is removed through disobedience. He doesn't adopt you into a family and then abort you. God is not Hitler or an 18 year old girl.

Calvin mentions “a taste of heavenly gifts,” which can only refer to Hebrews 6. Let’s examine this passage in context and see whether Calvin’s large conclusions are plausible, in light of it:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Keep in mind that everything stated here must apply (in Calvin’s view), to one who has never been regenerated, and who is destined to hell as a non-elect person: in fact, predestined from all eternity as a reprobate. The question is whether all these attributes make sense in terms of only a counterfeit and not the real thing.

Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.

Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity.

 

[epostle1]

No, we can spurn His sanctification and discipline by quenching the spirit. Quenching the spirit is not spiritual abortion which you are implying.

I am not implying that at all, you are.

What's sadistic is you believing the seed of God is removed through disobedience. He doesn't adopt you into a family and then abort you. God is not Hitler or an 18 year old girl.

You take a piece of my quote grossly out of context, use it for toilet paper, rub it in my face, and lecture me about "sadistic".

 

[Mayflower]

Yikes! This got hot fast! Y'all have a blessed night.

 

[Heb 13:8]

I am not implying that at all, you are.
You take a piece of my quote grossly out of context, use it for toilet paper, rub it in my face, and lecture me about "sadistic".

Well you reap what you sow I suppose, condemning Christians to hell for this so called "falling away". Do you not know what you preach?

 

[GodsGrace]

Anyone who is saved is saved by God’s grace. Catholics aren’t Pelagians or semi-Pelagians (as Calvinists and other Protestants often erroneously think). We agree with regard to sola gratia (grace alone). But we fallen human beings also are given the “right” by God to spurn His free grace and His salvation, which is why St. Paul so often warns us to not let that happen. We choose to cooperate or not cooperate with God’s saving grace: which alone can save us.

No one says that a prisoner who is pardoned “saved himself” because he accepted the pardon (my favorite analogy of grace and free will). We say, rather, that he was freed entirely by the pardoning governor’s “grace”. The Governor doesn’t “toy” with the prisoner and give him a few days of freedom; a taste of a free life, and then arbitrarily take it back, since he never intended to free him in the first place.

Anyone, I think, would deem that to be cruel, even perhaps sadistic. Yet Calvin and Calvinists who follow his thought don’t hesitate to apply such outrageous behavior to God Himself.

Calvin thus seems to compromise God’s love and mercy and justice on the altar of His sovereignty, whereas Catholicism (and, for that matter, Orthodoxy and most of Protestantism) holds all those important things in a proper biblical balance.

All of this speculation of Calvin’s is arguably eisegetical, and Calvin provides (at least in this section) only one unmistakable reference beyond a likely allusion to the parable of the sower (Mt 13:18-23) and passing mention of the “Abba, Father” passages (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:6). The concept of a “shadow” faith is merely an unsupported assumption of his own.

Calvin mentions “a taste of heavenly gifts,” which can only refer to Hebrews 6. Let’s examine this passage in context and see whether Calvin’s large conclusions are plausible, in light of it:

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Keep in mind that everything stated here must apply (in Calvin’s view), to one who has never been regenerated, and who is destined to hell as a non-elect person: in fact, predestined from all eternity as a reprobate. The question is whether all these attributes make sense in terms of only a counterfeit and not the real thing.

The apostate person referred to here is said to have formerly been “enlightened” (Greek, photizo; Strong’s word #5461). When Paul uses the same word in Ephesians 1:18, it is certainly applied to a regenerate Christian:

Ephesians 1:12-19

No one says that a prisoner who is pardoned “saved himself” because he accepted the pardon (my favorite analogy of grace and free will). We say, rather, that he was freed entirely by the pardoning governor’s “grace”. The Governor doesn’t “toy” with the prisoner and give him a few days of freedom; a taste of a free life, and then arbitrarily take it back, since he never intended to free him in the first place.

Anyone, I think, would deem that to be cruel, even perhaps sadistic. Yet Calvin and Calvinists who follow his thought don’t hesitate to apply such outrageous behavior to God Himself.

Calvin thus seems to compromise God’s love and mercy and justice on the altar of His sovereignty, whereas Catholicism (and, for that matter, Orthodoxy and most of Protestantism) holds all those important things in a proper biblical balance.
A Critique of Calvinism, Dave Armstrong

Great post!
Well said.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we can spurn His sanctification and discipline by quenching the spirit. Quenching the spirit is not spiritual abortion which you are implying.

Quenching the spirit IS spiritual abortion.
We don't make God's law, HE does. God has demanded obedience from the beginning of time with Adam and Eve. He continues to demand obedience into the book of Revelation 21:27.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to make it more complete and to make it be fulfilled, as was prophesied by the O.T. prophets. Mathew 5:17
In fact, Jesus raised the bar and made the law even more strict.
Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:21-22 If we only hate our brother, we have already killed him.
This is because Jesus has elevated our spirituality to the heart and not to external actions as was the case with the Mosaic Covenant.
Jesus says very plainly that we are to keep His commandments.
John 14:21

What's sadistic is you believing the seed of God is removed through disobedience. He doesn't adopt you into a family and then abort you. God is not Hitler or an 18 year old girl.

Those who believe as you do like to state that our disobedience affects only our life here on earth. This is not what the bible teaches. Paul made a point, as did all the writers, of behaving in a certain way because the consequences were so dire. Paul says even of himself:

1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Disqualified from what?
You claim it means that he will have trouble in THIS life... so he's going to be disqualified from trouble???

NO! Paul is speaking about being disqualified for heaven.

Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.

Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

First of all it's obvious that the above is speaking about someone who was once a believer in Jesus and either HAS FALLEN away, or is considering leaving belief in Jesus, which is, once again, proof positive that one could fall away from his saving faith in our Lord.

Also, this passage is speaking about Jews that had come to believe in Jesus and were leaving their "works salvation" and then they started to have doubts as to the validity of this new teaching and were considering going back to Judaism. Please read some commentaries, there is no doubt as to the significance of the above.

I also wonder what version you use because of what I highlighted above. Your version says "acts that lead to death" which makes it sound that we could do something that will cause our spiritual demise (which you are against). I believe it's the NIV.
Other translations which I checked, including the YLT, say "acts of dead works" which makes more sense in view of the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6. The Jews were practicing dead works and not placing their faith in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well you reap what you sow I suppose, condemning Christians to hell for this so called "falling away". Do you not know what you preach?

YOU preach we could be disobedient to GOD and still go to be with Him.
You claim we could do as we wish after salvation and still be saved.

Falling away from our faith will lead to loss of salvation and this has always been believed until only recently. The Apostles and those they taught in the early church believed in loss of salvation and so it was until 1,500 AD. Could all those brilliant minds have been wrong? NO!

Ignatius was a student of John the Apostle:
Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)

Barnabas 120-130 AD
Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."

This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."


He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.

The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)

source: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

 

[epostle1]

Well you reap what you sow I suppose, condemning Christians to hell for this so called "falling away". Do you not know what you preach?

You have been corrected on this straw man fallacy about 5 times. I am assured of my salvation the same as you, the difference is I cannot be infallibly assured. Only after I am dead can I be infallibly assured, provided I have persevered to the end of my life. Nobody knows who is in hell and who isn't. Not once have I ever condemned anyone to hell for falling away, because falling away has the potential to happen, it is not a guarantee that hell will happen. This is Calvin's dichotomous error: extremes of what could never happen to what must happen. It's not my theology that says God creates people just to throw them in hell. Your accusation that I condemn Christians to hell for falling away is hypocritical. No doubt you will come up with the same distortion again and again because your ignorance is invincible.

Ephesians 1:12-19

Not only is the context clearly referring to a true Christian believer, but the immediate context refers to assurance of the “hope to which he has called you.” Yet Calvin would have us believe that the same word applied to the person in Hebrews 6 can only be some sort of bogus, inadequate semi-faith, that in the end is no faith at all.​

Photizo is again used in Hebrews 10:32 (RSV: “enlightened”) in a way that plainly applies in context to regenerate believers: referred to as “brethren” (10:19) and those who have “a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (10:22). Such a description could scarcely apply to an unregenerate unbeliever. But again, warnings abound of possibly falling away:

Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? (cf. 10:35-39)

It is also difficult to understand how those who have become “partakers of the Holy Spirit” can somehow not be regenerate. What could this possibly mean other than some sense of indwelling or being led by the Spirit? The Greek word for “partakers” is metokos (Strong’s word #3348). Cross-references in Hebrews show that it clearly applies to those who are regenerate believers (with again the possibility — in context — of apostasy that Calvin claims is impossible):

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly call, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.

Hebrews 3:12-15

Moreover, to say that someone has “tasted the heavenly gift” also suggests being regenerate and profoundly in a spiritual realm characteristic of the true believer: receiving gifts of grace and of salvation. “Gift” in Hebrews 6:4 is the Greek word dorea (Strong’s word #1435). Here are other instances of it:

Acts 2:38 (cf. 8:20; 10:45; 11:17)

Romans 5:15, 17 …For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.… [17] If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 9:14-15 …the surpassing grace of God in you. [15] Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

We see that at every turn, the descriptions in Hebrews 6 can only sensibly apply to a regenerate Christian (those whom Calvin holds can never fall away). Yet this person in Hebrew 6 does fall away and commits apostasy.

Therefore, it is possible to do so, and Calvin’s doctrine of perseverance of the saints collapses, along with his faulty exegesis of this passage; and this is only one biblical indication of possible apostasy of true believers, among many others (especially in St. Paul’s epistles).
by Dave Armstrong

Like a friend of mine says: "Don't bring a pea shooter to a gun fight."

 

[GodsGrace]

You have been corrected on this straw man fallacy about 5 times. I am assured of my salvation the same as you, the difference is I cannot be infallibly assured. Only after I am dead can I be infallibly assured, provided I have persevered to the end of my life. Nobody knows who is in hell and who isn't. Not once have I ever condemned anyone to hell for falling away, because falling away has the potential to happen, it is not a guarantee that hell will happen. This is Calvin's dichotomous error: extremes of what could never happen to what must happen. It's not my theology that says God creates people just to throw them in hell. Your accusation that I condemn Christians to hell for falling away is hypocritical. No doubt you will come up with the same distortion again and again because your ignorance is invincible.

Ephesians 1:12-19

Not only is the context clearly referring to a true Christian believer, but the immediate context refers to assurance of the “hope to which he has called you.” Yet Calvin would have us believe that the same word applied to the person in Hebrews 6 can only be some sort of bogus, inadequate semi-faith, that in the end is no faith at all.​

Photizo is again used in Hebrews 10:32 (RSV: “enlightened”) in a way that plainly applies in context to regenerate believers: referred to as “brethren” (10:19) and those who have “a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water” (10:22). Such a description could scarcely apply to an unregenerate unbeliever. But again, warnings abound of possibly falling away:

Hebrews 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? (cf. 10:35-39)

It is also difficult to understand how those who have become “partakers of the Holy Spirit” can somehow not be regenerate. What could this possibly mean other than some sense of indwelling or being led by the Spirit? The Greek word for “partakers” is metokos (Strong’s word #3348). Cross-references in Hebrews show that it clearly applies to those who are regenerate believers (with again the possibility — in context — of apostasy that Calvin claims is impossible):

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, who share in a heavenly call, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession.

Hebrews 3:12-15

Moreover, to say that someone has “tasted the heavenly gift” also suggests being regenerate and profoundly in a spiritual realm characteristic of the true believer: receiving gifts of grace and of salvation. “Gift” in Hebrews 6:4 is the Greek word dorea (Strong’s word #1435). Here are other instances of it:

Acts 2:38 (cf. 8:20; 10:45; 11:17)

Romans 5:15, 17 …For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.… [17] If, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 9:14-15 …the surpassing grace of God in you. [15] Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift!

We see that at every turn, the descriptions in Hebrews 6 can only sensibly apply to a regenerate Christian (those whom Calvin holds can never fall away). Yet this person in Hebrew 6 does fall away and commits apostasy.

Therefore, it is possible to do so, and Calvin’s doctrine of perseverance of the saints collapses, along with his faulty exegesis of this passage; and this is only one biblical indication of possible apostasy of true believers, among many others (especially in St. Paul’s epistles).
by Dave Armstrong

Like a friend of mine says: "Don't bring a pea shooter to a gun fight."


View attachment 3187

Great post.

I believe, not sure, that maybe Calvin's theology may have started with his believing in perseverance of the saints.

This would require irresistible grace so that the grace give to resist all temptation could not be turned down. What is hypocritical about this is that some who believe in eternal security could be the most offensive Christians. Perhaps because they feel all is allowed.

Then Irresistible grace cannot be given to just everybody, because then everybody would be saved! So we would have to have Unconditional Election.

If we have unconditional election, then Jesus would have died only for those elect.
And so we have Limited Atonement.

Not sure how he got to total depravity.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Quenching the spirit IS spiritual abortion.

No, you're quenching the spirit GG, not the seed.

We don't make God's law, HE does. God has demanded obedience from the beginning of time with Adam and Eve. He continues to demand obedience into the book of Revelation 21:27.

God is not Hitler GG, He doesn't throw you into hell for lack of obedience. Man does that to himself by unbelief in the death, burial, resurrection.

Those who believe as you do like to state that our disobedience affects only our life here on earth. This is not what the bible teaches. Paul made a point, as did all the writers, of behaving in a certain way because the consequences were so dire. Paul says even of himself:

1 Corinthians 9:27
27but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Disqualified from what?
You claim it means that he will have trouble in THIS life... so he's going to be disqualified from trouble???

NO! Paul is speaking about being disqualified for heaven.

And this is referring to the five crowns in heaven. It has nothing to do with losing salvation, it's not even mentioned.

1 Cor 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last, but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

First of all it's obvious that the above is speaking about someone who was once a believer in Jesus and either HAS FALLEN away, or is considering leaving belief in Jesus, which is, once again, proof positive that one could fall away from his saving faith in our Lord.

Also, this passage is speaking about Jews that had come to believe in Jesus and were leaving their "works salvation" and then they started to have doubts as to the validity of this new teaching and were considering going back to Judaism. Please read some commentaries, there is no doubt as to the significance of the above.

Heb 6:4-6 and Heb 10:26-27 are actually a cross reference for the crucifixion of Christ and is using metaphorical language to describe the maturity of believers in Christ.

Not many understand that Heb 6 thought process actually begins at Heb 5:11.

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the (mature), who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Heb 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to (maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

This has nothing to do with losing salvation, less one believes God throws believers into hell for lack of maturity, which is on the borderline of insanity.

I also wonder what version you use because of what I highlighted above. Your version says "acts that lead to death" which makes it sound that we could do something that will cause our spiritual demise (which you are against). I believe it's the NIV.
Other translations which I checked, including the YLT, say "acts of dead works" which makes more sense in view of the meaning of Hebrews 6:4-6. The Jews were practicing dead works and not placing their faith in Christ.

I use Holy Spirit version, because you need the Holy Spirit to discern the truth of OSAS.