Scripture is not the last word.

[ScottA]

We often hear that the test of any comment or doctrine is scripture, and certainly it is a good test. It's just not the last word, nor is it the best test. Nor should it be considered our last line of defense. To do so, is to admit that we do not understand where we are in God's master plan of revelation, and that we do not have the Holy Spirit leading us unto all truth.

If we are under the impression that the scriptures are the final authority, the tie-breaker during these days...we are behind the times. Jesus made it clear that His "words are spirit." Moreover, by walking out the scriptures that were written of Him - He was put to death. You could say, what He did [by the word] according to the scriptures, was all that was humanly possible. For if a perfect Christ could not do perfectly according to the scriptures without being killed for it - there is nothing more or better that can be done. But, He did not leave it there.

Jesus told us exactly what the next phase was to be during these times - and it was not that we should keep referring back to the scriptures as the final say. No, after doing all that was humanly possible - in other words, by word, and by the scriptures - He very specifically stated that His last words would come as follows:

John 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

Likewise, the apostle Paul wrote:

Hebrews 6:1-2
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Therefore, the scriptures, yes, even the elementary principles of Christ...once they are elementary to our learning - are to be "left" behind, that we may go on to "perfection"...which comes by "the Spirit of truth", or not at all.

So...as we enter into discussion here, please know that the scriptures only go so far in determining "all truth" and the last word.

 

[101G]

We often hear that the test of any comment or doctrine is scripture, and certainly it is a good test. It's just not the last word, nor is it the best test. Nor should it be considered our last line of defense. To do so, is to admit that we do not understand where we are in God's master plan of revelation, and that we do not have the Holy Spirit leading us unto all truth.

If we are under the impression that the scriptures are the final authority, the tie-breaker during these days...we are behind the times. Jesus made it clear that His "words are spirit." Moreover, by walking out the scriptures that were written of Him - He was put to death. You could say, what He did [by the word] according to the scriptures, was all that was humanly possible. For if a perfect Christ could not do perfectly according to the scriptures without being killed for it - there is nothing more or better that can be done. But, He did not leave it there.

Jesus told us exactly what the next phase was to be during these times - and it was not that we should keep referring back to the scriptures as the final say. No, after doing all that was humanly possible - in other words, by word, and by the scriptures - He very specifically stated that His last words would come as follows:

John 16:13
"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come."

Likewise, the apostle Paul wrote:

Hebrews 6:1-2
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment."

Therefore, the scriptures, yes, even the elementary principles of Christ...once they are elementary to our learning - are to be "left" behind, that we may go on to "perfection"...which comes by "the Spirit of truth", or not at all.

So...as we enter into discussion here, please know that the scriptures only go so far in determining "all truth" and the last word.

Good topic Scott. I can understand it to a point. Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this also. John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come". is this more "revelation" of the scriptures that have already been spoken. scripture, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". here's the reason why I say this. Jesus is the Truth and he spoke truth, John 8:45 "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not".

Just to consider.
PCY.
PS what i mean by revelation = Deeper meaning or better understanding.

 

[Helen]

@ScottA

Well I am someone who was taught that when I/we 'hear from God by the Spirit...we then ask God to confirm this by the written word.
( the scripture being the second witness to the Spirit. )

So I take it you do not do this yourself?
I have a lot of confidence in my "hearing"...but as I say, taught to not trust my own hearing without a scriptural confirmation, dream, or vision. = Two words being confirming.

I can see the weakness in this...If God suddenly spoke in a time of crisis I would get on with it and follow...not wait two hours or more for confirmation.

So...as we enter into discussion here, please know that the scriptures only go so far in determining "all truth" and the last word.

Could you clarify this quote for me again please?

This looks like a really good and needful thread...but you will have to "go slow" for me...it takes me a little time to 'get-it.'

Bless you....Helen.

 

[twinc]

Good topic Scott. I can understand it to a point. Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this also. John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come". is this more "revelation" of the scriptures that have already been spoken. scripture, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". here's the reason why I say this. Jesus is the Truth and he spoke truth, John 8:45 "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not".

Just to consider.
PCY.
PS what i mean by revelation = Deeper meaning or better understanding.

the deeper meaning or understanding or task or purpose and necessity for the Holy Spirit imho has not been properly grasped or understood first and formerly as recorder in heaven to record the sayings of Jesus in heaven - so making the bible recorded in heaven and then passing these recordings on to individual human recorders etc imho - twinc

 

[Helen]

the deeper meaning or understanding or task or purpose and necessity for the Holy Spirit imho has not been properly grasped or understood first and formerly as recorder in heaven to record the sayings of Jesus in heaven - so making the bible recorded in heaven and then passing these recordings on to individual human recorders etc imho - twinc

 

[ScottA]

Good topic Scott. I can understand it to a point. Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this also. John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come". is this more "revelation" of the scriptures that have already been spoken. scripture, John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you". here's the reason why I say this. Jesus is the Truth and he spoke truth, John 8:45 "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not".

Just to consider.
PCY.
PS what i mean by revelation = Deeper meaning or better understanding.

Indeed, not "dimly" but clearly and fully, things that were eluded to but "restrained" until the appointed time:

2 Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA

Well I am someone who was taught that when I/we 'hear from God by the Spirit...we then ask God to confirm this by the written word.
( the scripture being the second witness to the Spirit. )

So I take it you do not do this yourself?
I have a lot of confidence in my "hearing"...but as I say, taught to not trust my own hearing without a scriptural confirmation, dream, or vision. = Two words being confirming.

I can see the weakness in this...If God suddenly spoke in a time of crisis I would get on with it and follow...not wait two hours or more for confirmation.



Could you clarify this quote for me again please?

This looks like a really good and needful thread...but you will have to "go slow" for me...it takes me a little time to 'get-it.'

Bless you....Helen.

Oh, yes, absolutely, I confirm with the scriptures. This is how it was for me from the very start with my own road to Damascus type experience. In fact that is what I have done here with this thread, even considering the scriptures the precedent for things to come. For, more importantly, the chronology according to the scriptures is first, the word, and then the spirit.

As for "the scriptures only going so far in determining all truth"... It is the scriptures that are the seeing of "the glass dimly", but the Spirit who leads us unto "all truth" "face to face."

 

[ScottA]

the deeper meaning or understanding or task or purpose and necessity for the Holy Spirit imho has not been properly grasped or understood first and formerly as recorder in heaven to record the sayings of Jesus in heaven - so making the bible recorded in heaven and then passing these recordings on to individual human recorders etc imho - twinc

Wow - I got it - and so it is written!

 

[Windmill Charge]

If we are under the impression that the scriptures are the final authority, the tie-breaker during these days...we are behind the times.

I wasn't aware that fashion had anything todo with how we understand scripture?
The methods we use are timeless, just like the message in the bible.

as we enter into discussion here, please know that the scriptures only go so far in determining "all truth" and the last word

Compare the above with what is below.

Oh, yes, absolutely, I confirm with the scriptures

If this quote is true then the first quote is false.

I'll be blunt. God may give you a message, or you believe God has given you a message, but untill you have verrified that message by the final word ie the BIBLE that message is viewed with suspicion.

Look at Act 17: 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

That is the biblical patten.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'll be blunt. God may give you a message, or you believe God has given you a message, but untill you have verrified that message by the final word ie the BIBLE that message is viewed with suspicion.

we have a world filled with mens religions and false doctrines based on that theory, Teh bible is not God and neither is it above God, nor does God have to be obedient to teh bible, who do you think God is, is the dead letter greater than the living word that is Jesus Christ. all mens doings not Gods.

1Jn_5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

if one was to say, that religion and the bible is all you have, than you have nothing, because everything is in Jesus.

 

[mjrhealth]

Wow - I got it - and so it is written!

You didnt think this was going to be easy... nah I didnt think so.

 

[Davy]

This was one of the reasons for the Protestant Reformation.

If we cannot trust God's Holy Writ to be our exclusive authority and guide on all matters, then we are defaulting to a false idea that God did not give us His Word in written form through His chosen by The Holy Spirit as they were guided:

2 Peter 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
KJV


Paul's adominition to Timothy:

2 Tim 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
KJV

Did that say we need a pope in order to make us perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works? No. Paul said "All scripture is given by inspiration of God", meaning it came from our Heavenly Father Himself.

This was one of the reasons why God led king James of England to command Bible scholars of the day in England to create an English Bible translation for the people to read for themselves. God putting His Word in the hands of His people has prevented one of the greatest attempted thefts in the history of this world, i.e., those who want to prevent the people from reading God's Word for themselves, so His people know not to put up with tyrrants whom God did not chose nor call.

 

[mjrhealth]

Wow - I got it - and so it is written!

You didnt think this was going to be easy... nah I didnt think so.

This was one of the reasons why God led king James of England to command Bible scholars of the day in England to create an English Bible translation for the people to read for themselves. God putting His Word in the hands of His people has prevented one of the greatest attempted thefts in the history of this world, i.e., those who want to prevent the people from reading God's Word for themselves, so His people know not to put up with tyrrants whom God did not chose nor call.

and so we have a corrupt version of the truth because men changed the truth to satisfy his desires and from it exploded religions all based on a book that many claim to be Gods word, and knowing what men would do, since he knows the corrupt hearts of all men, He promised the Holy Spirit to those who would receive Him that they may come into the fullness of the truth, but even today He like Christ is still rejected by men, and that book has become an idol that men place before and above God Himself and teh living word that is Jesus. And so confusion reigns because men are blinded to the truth and they presume there wisdom to be greater than Gods

 

[Windmill Charge]

we have a world filled with mens religions and false doctrines based on that theory, Teh bible is not God and neither is it above God, nor does God have to be obedient to teh bible, who do you think God is, is the dead letter greater than the living word that is Jesus Christ. all mens doings not Gods.

If you think that Gods word is dead or that God is going to say something that he has not already said than you are moving out of Christianity into your own version of Christianity made in your imagination.

Have you never read
hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

 

[mjrhealth]

hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

yes because His words are Spirit and they are life, not dried up ink on the pages of a book, you wont find life in the bible it is in Jesus.

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so men have no life, as for the bible all the religions of this world and these forums are testament to the confusion that reigns by men who place it above and before God Himself, God is not the author of confusion, 44000 religious denominations who preach the bible and a different gospel cant be wrong ..can they???

Gods world will never die, for if it did, we would no longer exist. even when the bible is no longer His word will still be alive.

 

[Davy]

You didnt think this was going to be easy... nah I didnt think so.

and so we have a corrupt version of the truth because men changed the truth to satisfy his desires and from it exploded religions all based on a book that many claim to be Gods word, and knowing what men would do, since he knows the corrupt hearts of all men, He promised the Holy Spirit to those who would receive Him that they may come into the fullness of the truth, but even today He like Christ is still rejected by men, and that book has become an idol that men place before and above God Himself and teh living word that is Jesus. And so confusion reigns because men are blinded to the truth and they presume there wisdom to be greater than Gods

That is not at all how it is.

The process by which the 1611 King James Bible came to be is a particular history that has God's Hand in it all the way to completion. It didn't come out of some mysterious seldom used set of manuscripts like the Alexandrian texts did. The confusion is from more modern versions which use the Alexandrian texts:

https://www.preservedword.com/category/bible/manuscripts/

 

[Davy]

Brethren, don't believe all this balderdash negative suggestions that God's Holy Writ is like a dead letter that no longer serves a purpose. Those are doctrines of devils where those ideas come from, and God's Word directly contradicts those ideas.

As a matter of fact, God's Holy Writ is directed by The Holy Spirit to be written in such a way as to preserve subject alternations throughout a chapter and book that reveals a perfect type of outline of the subject. One of the few Bibles that presents these lists before the start of every Book and chapter is The Companion Bible, a 1611 KJV study Bible which the 19th century British Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger compiled.

 

[mjrhealth]

That is not at all how it is.

The process by which the 1611 King James Bible came to be is a particular history that has God's Hand in it all the way to completion. It didn't come out of some mysterious seldom used set of manuscripts like the Alexandrian texts did. The confusion is from more modern versions which use the Alexandrian texts:

The Unreliablitity of the Alexandrian Manuscripts - Preserved Word Ministries

Did God say His hand was in it, that is an assumption. King James had his reasons, even He changed things to justify himself, you should read about it. I happen to use the KJ but even that has difference depending on what version you buy. The bible is not my God.

Religion and the bible are like ice cream, God has His flavor, by the Spirit, but men have added there own, so it a bit like walking into an ice cream shop and choosing which flavor you like the mosy.
Ill have a bit of KJ with some SDA
Ill have a bit of NIV with some JW
Ill have a bit of ISV with some Morman

all mixture and so again men have no life because they wont go to the one who is life.

 

[Windmill Charge]

yes because His words are Spirit and they are life, not dried up ink on the pages of a book, you wont find life in the bible it is in Jesus.

Strange how God has used and still does use the preaching of words found in the bible to save and instruct non christians and Christians. How the reading of the bible has brought many people to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

If you really knew the bible you would know that it talks about Jesus, that the OT points forward to his coming, that the NT looks back at his life here and points forward to his coming again.
Charles Spurgeon commented on the preaching outlines of Charles Simons said'Be a prophet of God and they will live.'
It is appropriater to you if you know Jesus, then every word of the bible is inspired by God and lives as I quoted from Hebrews.

 

[mjrhealth]

It is appropriater to you if you know Jesus, then every word of the bible is inspired by God and lives as I quoted from Hebrew

And if you rad it you would see that they where talking about the OT not the NT. And not every word was inspired by God unless He is the devil.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Peter was not inspired to say those words by God was he.. now go read all the stories about His resurrection and tell me which is the right one. Who did what and saw whom first.

One day when all men turn to Christ all this will go away. But that day has yet to come.
Oh and yes it tell you about Him so why dont you go to Him and learn from Him. He gave us His best the Holy Spirit why do you choose the second best.