Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[Taken]

No.

Not sure why you said "No".

[/QUOTE]Behavior also affects God. It is not ONLY for us or for a witness as many state.[/QUOTE]

I was not speaking for many, nor excluded God....

Clearly I identified it Glorifies His Name.

It's what Jesus demanded.
We're required to behave in a Christianly manner, otherwise we're just like the rest of the world. Isn't this true?

Actually Jesus commanded, not demanded.
And Jesus revealed, but did not demand His own revelations be forced on anyone.

The most grievous Sin of mankind is Disbelief in God, His Power and His Word.

ONCE any man has come to believe IN GOD, His Power, His Word, in the mans own natural spirit, (which IS his natural truth), in his own natural Heart.....
Everything Changes for that individual man.

And none of the changes ARE by the effort of the man. And none of the changes ARE temporary.

Jesus said If You Love Me, You Will Keep My Commandments.
John 14:15

He also said;

Matt 5:19
Whosever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men to do so,
He shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven;
But whosever shall do and them them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled:
Ye believe in God, believe also in me.

[/QUOTE]What commandments? Every word that came out of Jesus' mouth that had to do with behavior was a commandment. For instance, Mathew 5:3-10, Mathew 25:34-46

Paul also made a point of how we're to behave:
Romans 13:9-13
1 Corinthians 5:9-13
2 Corinthians 5:17
Galatians 5:19-21
and more...[/QUOTE]

I am not knocking good behavior is taught, and desired and reveals to a World full of VISIUAL eyes cast one upon the other of ones own love for God, that the World can judge and See and comment.

I already addressed how good behavior is beneficial to both the Lord and mankind.

My point is; Behavior does not UNDO a man having received Salvation.

If one behaves poorly, he might be a new Christian or might be having some difficulty or might not have had light shed on his behavior. This is not for me to know and it'll be between him and our Father, but I know that a certain behavior IS expected from us, to the best of our ability - which only God knows.

Certainly there are many reasons for poor behavior.
Still my point is, do you believe behavior affects a saved and born again mans Salvation?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

What good is disagreeing?
Tell us why you disagree.
What did I say that seems incorrect...

Your objection to received Salvation being permanent.

Why? Because I Trust Jesus is the Truth, and can not speak what is not True.

Luke 7: 50
...he said...They faith hath saved thee.....

Why ? Because I Trust Christ is the Power of God, that supersedes the power of mankind.

John 14:16
...give to you another Comforter (HS) that he may abide with you for ever....

1 Cor 1:24
...Christ the Power of God....



God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

By the way, IT IS NOT MY understanding.
It's the teaching of mainline churches.
Some churches these days like to teach new ideas that were not around until the year 1,500 AD.

I believe these are your words, since they were not quoted or accounted to an other...

Post #53

You probably believe in eternal salvation.
"It does not exist in the NT".

"Jesus no where speaks as to being saved".

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

I need that spell check program...
I do respect theologians. I can't put myself in their class. I've read some books, not many, and the knowledge they have is awesome. Of course, I agree with those that are of the ideas that I've learned from churches and with which I agree with.

I doubt that any sincere theologian has it all right, but neither do any of them have it all wrong. Likely was so for what any church groups defined as essential doctrines. How do you sort them out? Study is not an evil route, but it will not alone resolve all of the differences between sincere believers.

As far as the prison idea and Jesus going to hell. This is a very complicated subject and I've never devoted the proper time to it that it would take to really understand it. It SEEMS to me to be impossible that Jesus could have interred into hell. The hell that is meant by most persons. I can't even imagine it. Some churches do teach this.

This is one where I believe the belief "meant by most persons" is wrong. Of course, I will certainly be in the minority so if the right answer is according to the majority then I am in serious trouble.

The N.T. does say that He preached in this place, giving those there a chance to be saved. I hope you know the scriptures enough not to ask for verses, but I'll find them if necessary for you.

No need! I have read them many times and have studies on the subject set aside in my computer for reference. An in depth study of the subject will bring up a lot of questions. Many and perhaps even most people sitting in ministerial position don't even know the questions and likely the one that do know the questions will often disagree on the answers. It may be a interest and for some it be a pressing issue, but if our heart toward God is right, how necessary are the answers really?

This bothers me anyway. Isn't one judged immediately after death?
Were not the ones dead prior to the resurrection already in hell or Abraham's Bossom (awaiting the resurrection) in Luke 16? Why would Jesus give everyone a second change?

I don't believe that there is a second chance for anyone who has lived since Jesus opened up the Way. We are all born dead in our sinful ways. We in those ways sinned and anyone who never repented upon being given the opportunity is already dead and in no need of further judgement. I believe that and have studied the scriptures as well as the studies of other men on it.

Jesus is the Resurrection. Anyone who never believed in Him has no resurrection and therefore they are already judged:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because
their deeds were evil." John 3:18-19

The explanations for those who lived prior to the sacrifice of Jesus and/or under another covenant may be different, but that really makes little difference to you or to me.

What idiot would not accept it after realizing that life after death is REAL !

I can't discuss this with any amount of intelligence. Your views are appreciated.

Life after death is real, but without a Resurrection there is no Life at all for anyone. That is why Jesus came to provide a Way to Life.
Those who do not believe remain dead and condemned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Your objection to received Salvation being permanent.

Why? Because I Trust Jesus is the Truth, and can not speak what is not True.

Luke 7: 50
...he said...They faith hath saved thee.....

Why ? Because I Trust Christ is the Power of God, that supersedes the power of mankind.

John 14:16
...give to you another Comforter (HS) that he may abide with you for ever....

1 Cor 1:24
...Christ the Power of God....



God Bless,
Taken

I agree with all of the above.
The problem I have is with those that say that being saved one time in life will literally guarantee salvation.

If you notice, in your post above you said that Jesus said "thy faith has saved thee". Right. As long as we have faith, we are saved. What if I lose my faith?

I don't say this to argue with you because I believe you to be a sincere Christian, I say this for those reading along who may misunderstand and think that because they accepted Jesus as Savior one time in their life, they can be saved forever.

Jesus is our Savior but He is also our Lord.
As long as we believe, we are saved.
As long as we have faith, we are saved.

The comforter will abide with us forever, as long as we desire Him to be by our side. God did not take away our free will when we got saved.

But both those nouns are in the present tense.
This is my point...

John 3:16
Whoever BELIEVES -- in the Son of God.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe these are your words, since they were not quoted or accounted to an other...

Post #53

Taken,
What I mean is that I do not make up theology or apologetics.
I say what I've learned from two mainline churches.
I say the words, but I'm repeating what I've learned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure why you said "No".

Sorry 'bout that. When I say NO, it means I don't agree.

I was not speaking for many, nor excluded God....

Clearly I identified it Glorifies His Name.

I agree that our behavior glorifies God. Everyone around here respects the JW's for being such nice and well-dressed persons. I wish they could say the same for Christians.

So, yes. It's also for us and to glorify God's name, but, I can only repeat, it's also because Jesus required this of us. If we're in the Kingdom of God, we're to behave like it.

Actually Jesus commanded, not demanded.
And Jesus revealed, but did not demand His own revelations be forced on anyone.

If God commanded, or demanded, what's the difference??
If God even requests something, it is not a request -- it is a demand.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law and that we are not to break even one little stroke or letter of it till all time passes.
Jesus also said that whoever annuls one of these commandments, or teaches others to, will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mathew 5:17-20

The most grievous Sin of mankind is Disbelief in God, His Power and His Word.

ONCE any man has come to believe IN GOD, His Power, His Word, in the mans own natural spirit, (which IS his natural truth), in his own natural Heart.....
Everything Changes for that individual man.

And none of the changes ARE by the effort of the man. And none of the changes ARE temporary.

Agreed on everything except the very last sentence.
Our effort is required. The changes are permanent for as long as we believe and have faith in Jesus.

Our efforts are required because if they weren't, we'd have to blame God for our sins. This is the difference between Justification and Sanctification. Do you believe there's a difference between these two words or do they mean the same?

He also said;

Matt 5:19
Whosever therefore shall break one of these least commandments and shall teach men to do so,
He shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven;
But whosever shall do and them them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled:
Ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Agreed. Just please notice again the present tenses.

I am not knocking good behavior is taught, and desired and reveals to a World full of VISIUAL eyes cast one upon the other of ones own love for God, that the World can judge and See and comment.

I already addressed how good behavior is beneficial to both the Lord and mankind.

My point is; Behavior does not UNDO a man having received Salvation.

This is the type of quote that I think is very damaging to Christianity.
I posted many verses where both Jesus and Paul are saying that BEHAVIOR DOES COUNT. How could you then say that it doesn't?
Please explain these verses then:
Romans 13:9-13
Galatians 5:17-21

If Paul is telling us how NOT to behave, doesn't that also tell us HOW TO behave??

Certainly there are many reasons for poor behavior.
Still my point is, do you believe behavior affects a saved and born again mans Salvation?

God Bless,
Taken

I've answered this in my previous post and cannot explain further.
If bad behavior continues and is willingly done and is the type of behavior that Paul and Jesus warn us against, yes, I believe it could affect our salvation - but I'm not here to say at what point. Jesus called it living a life of lawlessness. You cannot be saved AND be lawless.
Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


John 14:15

 

[Taken]

I agree with all of the above.
The problem I have is with those that say that being saved one time in life will literally guarantee salvation.

If you notice, in your post above you said that Jesus said "thy faith has saved thee". Right. As long as we have faith, we are saved. What if I lose my faith?

I don't say this to argue with you because I believe you to be a sincere Christian, I say this for those reading along who may misunderstand and think that because they accepted Jesus as Savior one time in their life, they can be saved forever.

Jesus is our Savior but He is also our Lord.
As long as we believe, we are saved.
As long as we have faith, we are saved.

The comforter will abide with us forever, as long as we desire Him to be by our side. God did not take away our free will when we got saved.

But both those nouns are in the present tense.
This is my point...

John 3:16
Whoever BELIEVES -- in the Son of God.

The crux of the matter lies in RECEIVING Salvation.

Salvation is provided for ALL....
However Salvation is NOT given UNTIL one requests to receive it.

That request is effected by the individual himself.
1) calling on the Name, of ? The one who Has the Salvation to give. Ie the Lord.
2) confessing from the thoughts of their heart, they believe in the Lord.

IOW, it is not forced on anyone to RECEIVE Salvation.

Satan mimicked even this concept...
He offered the fruit of the forbidden tree to the Woman (he did not pluck the fruit and stuff it in her mouth).
She reached up and took the fruit herself.
Gen 3:6

The thoughts of their heart?
Why not the thoughts of their mind?

And the man? Two sources of thoughts?

First the mind of man is deceptive. It can think of ways to lie and make a lie appear as a truth.

The heart is a mans truth (ie natural spirit), is hidden. He knows his own truths, can keep them hidden, reveal to another, or keep his truth hidden while his speech out of his mouth can speak deceptive lies.

The Lord does not Save the Saved.
Thus, when the Lord is looking for a natural man's True confession of Belief, He is listening to a confession from the mans heart.

And who knows the spirit (truth) of a man?
God Himself and the man.
Luke 16:15
Acts 15:8

There is Enlightening which is one thing.
And there is Salvation which is another thing.

Enlightening exclusively to Scripture is being illuminated with Knowledge that is sourced from THEE TRUE LIGHT of God Himself, who IS Light.

Every and Any man who is hearing, reading, learning, Knowledge pursuit to God's Word, is being Enlightened.

It is not Being Saved or Born Again...it is being enlightened; receiving Knowledge.

Many man can hear, learn, read, and become Enlightened, even repeat what they hear, even proclaim they believe what they hear.
They can proclaim to be Saved, BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THE knowledge they have been enlightened with hearing.

AND...then THEY can also;
denounce, reject, deny what they have heard.

How is that possible?
That was possible with the Disciples. They traveled with Jesus daily; hearing, observing, believing, doubting, denying, believing, questioning, wondering....

This is a process of Learning, UNTIL one lands on the believe in their heart, to Trust to Believe and SUBMIT.

But what about the man who claims have to believed AND accomplished the ritual of Water Baptism? Joined the Chruch? Participates in it festivities and times of Worship?

What about it?
Which one of those things Saved his soul?
None.

As long as we believe, we are saved.
As long as we have faith we are saved.
The comforter will abide with us forever...
As we desire Him to be by our side. {QUOTE]

Your words are disturbing to me.

Your words appear to put a Caveat on what is according to us, instead of what is according to the Lord.

When we have true believe in our hearts AND confess Christ the Lord, we ARE SAVED.

The Saving is not of our own doing.
It is a gift from God.
Faith is not of our own doing.
It is a gift from God.

You appear to make Gods "given Gifts" conditional. He didn't.

The Comforter (ie the Hs)....abides with us forever...as we desire Him to?

That as well appears conditional according to what we feel like.
Once the Holy Spirit is indwelling within a man; it is permanent/forever.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Taken,
What I mean is that I do not make up theology or apologetics.
I say what I've learned from two mainline churches.
I say the words, but I'm repeating what I've learned.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying.

As your statements of what you have learned;
Is that what you believe?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Sorry 'bout that. When I say NO, it means I don't agree.


I agree that our behavior glorifies God. Everyone around here respects the JW's for being such nice and well-dressed persons. I wish they could say the same for Christians.

So, yes. It's also for us and to glorify God's name, but, I can only repeat, it's also because Jesus required this of us. If we're in the Kingdom of God, we're to behave like it.


If God commanded, or demanded, what's the difference??
If God even requests something, it is not a request -- it is a demand.
Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law and that we are not to break even one little stroke or letter of it till all time passes.
Jesus also said that whoever annuls one of these commandments, or teaches others to, will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mathew 5:17-20


Agreed on everything except the very last sentence.
Our effort is required. The changes are permanent for as long as we believe and have faith in Jesus.

Our efforts are required because if they weren't, we'd have to blame God for our sins. This is the difference between Justification and Sanctification. Do you believe there's a difference between these two words or do they mean the same?





Agreed. Just please notice again the present tenses.




This is the type of quote that I think is very damaging to Christianity.
I posted many verses where both Jesus and Paul are saying that BEHAVIOR DOES COUNT. How could you then say that it doesn't?
Please explain these verses then:
Romans 13:9-13
Galatians 5:17-21

If Paul is telling us how NOT to behave, doesn't that also tell us HOW TO behave??



I've answered this in my previous post and cannot explain further.
If bad behavior continues and is willingly done and is the type of behavior that Paul and Jesus warn us against, yes, I believe it could affect our salvation - but I'm not here to say at what point. Jesus called it living a life of lawlessness. You cannot be saved AND be lawless.
Mathew 7:23
23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


John 14:15

Thanks for the conversation, yet I feel we are still in disagreement.

I do not believe a man who has become saved and born again, can become "unsaved" or "unborn again".... which would make the Lord a liar and His Power moot.

One will know if another is saved and born again .... or not.

1) By their claim, should you trust to rely on their word.
2) They can never speak in Disbelief in thy Lord thy God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[APAK]

You probably believe in eternal salvation.
It does not exist in the N.T.
Next time you read what Jesus said during His 3 year plus ministry, pay attention to what He's saying.

He never said that you believe one time and are saved forever.
Look at this verse:
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deedsto a resurrection of judgment.

Jesus nowhere speaks as to being saved. HE said that a judgement is coming, those who did GOOD DEEDS to a resurrection of LIFE, those who committed EVIL DEEDS to a resurrection of judgement, or death.
We need to pay attention to what Jesus said. How would YOU interpret these verses?

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

It does NOT matter who the passage is speaking about; here's what matters:

1. They had escaped the defilement of the world by the KNOWLEDGE of the Lord and SAVIOR.

2. They are AGAIN entangled. The word AGAIN, means that they were:
entangled
saved
AGAIN entangled

3. Their state is worse than the first at which time they did not KNOW of Christ, but now they do and their sin is greater.
Luke 12:48

4. They DID know the way of righteousness, but then RETURNED to the life from which they were delivered.

GodsGrace, thank you for your reply..

I believe you only have only one question you have asked of me, regarding John 5:28-29?

You have made other statements that are not posed as questions for me?

Paying attention to scripture is crucial, I agree. It is also critical to pay attention to the context, the speakers, their style and knowing their historical meanings of words, the audience and the meaning of the words or phrases used in an area of scripture.

In this case we need to know the meanings of the phrase ‘good works’ and ‘evil deeds.’ Now the style and history of Jesus’ teachings suggest strongly that Jesus mean ‘good deeds’ and ‘evil deeds’ as measured by God’s standards and perspective and not by human standards or view.

Then we need to know what does ‘doing good or evil deeds’ mean. Does it mean committing sins on a one- time basis, a short-term thing, an intermittent and infrequent thing, or a continuous thing? Or is this entire areas of sin irrelevant?

John 3:16-18 among several other pieces of scripture is the support here that Jesus meant that ‘good’ works were works of believers that were righteous and faithful. Now this has no bearing on habitual or even long-term sins a believer committed in their lives. ‘Evil’ works are of unbelievers no matter how sinless or perfect they seem to be, and no matter the sins they committed, although they would be the ones that would practice sin as a lifestyle and some would love it. Believers on the other hand hate sin and the practice of the same sin. I have not come across any believer that loves to sin or is proud of it. I am one indeed. Unfortunately, they/we have a human spirit or nature, like any human being in this body.

I’m surprised you did not start your area of scripture with verse 24 and on…it does give more context and meaning into what you are searching for…

Note: I hope that by seeing the word ‘works’ in this scripture, does not get someone energized to say that I believe in salvation through works or earning my way to salvation. This is not that at all. These are spiritual works and are evidence of salvation via the working of spirit of God within a believer.

Yes, Jesus never used your words and said that “... you believe one time and are saved forever.” Neither did he say “if you do not believe the first time you can never be saved.” I think you are trying to formulate, feed or mature a belief model you have created that may not be based on scripture? Everyone does this I know. Is it scriptural though, is key?

I have a question for you if I may ask it…

How do you know that God is working within you and you are indeed a child of God? One scriptural answer is this one…

"For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God... The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Romans 8:14,16)

Thanks

APAK

 

[Taken]

I agree with all of the above.
The problem I have is with those that say that being saved one time in life will literally guarantee salvation.

Salvation IS a GIFT.
IOW - it is something God HAS, and a man CAN Receive.




You imply, a man who HAS RECEIVED the Gift of Salvation, FROM GOD, is a GIFT, God foolishly Gave, and can HE TAKE IT BACK, Because a man, AFTER HAVING RECEIVED the GIFT, then Rejected God.

This is where I believe your understanding is secular and not spiritual.

When a natural man ACCEPTS GODS GIFT OF SALVATION...."that GIFT" comes with "TERMS".

It IS a precise CHOICE of the man, exercising HIS FREE WILL, to make a CONTRACT, a VOW, a SUBMISSION to the Lord.

You secularly noted, mans Freewill to Choose, then retaining that Freewill to basically "change his mind", and reject his Salvation.

Scripture teaches....God IS TRUTH. His WORD IS TRUTH.

Scripture also teaches....Inasmuch as He is Truth, He "accepts" mans "HEART'S" thoughts as Truth.

When a man CHOOSES to believe in God, and SOLICITE God Himself, (calling on His NAME), to TELL GOD of the man's (exercised Freewill)......God does not LISTEN to a mans MIND.....God LISTENS to the thoughts of a mans "natural spirit", (his "natural truth") in the mans "natural heart".

ONCE that ( a man exercising his own freewill to proclaim to the Lord his belief in his heart) IS accomplished....

The Lord Himself, Forgives the man, for NOT having believed in Him.

The Lord Himself, kills that body of Sin, washes that body of Sin, sanctifies that body of Sin, keeps that sanctified body with Christ, until the day He gives that body it's own glorification change.

Saves the mans soul, BY restoring it to good, By Gods Power;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW heart, that it forever shall be KEPT in Belief;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW spirit;
That it shall forever have Life in it;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Spirit of LIFE , within the man to KEEP the mans soul, the mans spirit, Forever Alive;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Truth, written in the mans NEW Heart.

And you propose a man WHO HAS chosen with his own Freewill to Subject himself to ALL OF THIS.....is a man WHO CAN THEREAFTER, supersede Gods Own Power, and undo ALL OF THIS....with his own Mind?

I absolutely do not agree.

Scripture teaches (and perhaps men don't teach so well)....that when a man concludes in his heart to believe in God....

Before jumping in and calling on the Lords Name......TO KNOW what he is commtting to....and to KNOW that it is a PERMANENT VOW....AND TO BE SURE of what he is committing to.

2 Pet 1:10
Wherefore the "rather", brethren,
GIVE DILIGENCE to MAKE "YOUR" CALLING and (your) ELECTION "SURE".

1 Thes 1:4
"KNOWING", brethren beloved,
"YOUR ELECTION OF GOD".

Jas 5:
....let your yea be yea and your nay, nay.

Saving of a mans soul, is completely between the man exercising his own freewill to call on the Lord's Name, with a Confession of Belief in the mans own heart, and the man VOWING to ELECT God, to Give the man the Gift of Salvation.

And no, that is not thereafter undone.
And no, that is not received because of Works of a man.

If you notice, in your post above you said that Jesus said "thy faith has saved thee". Right. As long as we have faith, we are saved. What if I lose my faith?

Faith IS a GIFT from God. When one is hearing/reading the Word of God they are being enlightened, ie being recipients of the TRUTH of God.

When the individual is BELIEVING what they hear/read, they are given measures of Faith.

This is not Saving, this is them receiving Faith, FOR them believing what they hear/read.

Keep hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Keep receiving Faith.

Stop hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Lose receiving Faith.

So can a man Lose Faith? Absolutely.

Can a man WHO is SAVED Lose Faith? No.

The difference is ONE is kept hearing, reading, believing, BY exercising his own freewill.

ONE is kept in Faithfulness, BY Gods Power.

So what about the man WHO claims He believed, WAS SAVED, but is no longer?

We know not, the choice the man made.
Perhaps he chose to submit to God, by the thoughts in his MIND, not his HEART, and then CHANGED HIS MIND.

Was the man EVER SAVED? No.

What about the man WHO claims to be SAVED, but "other men", do not SEE, his "WORKS" as good?

Did the mans "WORKS" save the man? No.

Can another man SEE Gods INTERNAL SAVING and QUICKENING of a mans "soul and spirit" ? No.

So, sure men can hear another mans testimony of being Saved. And men can see another mans Works, and trust to believe the man is Saved.

But how would one man KNOW for sure IF another man IS SAVED?

A SAVED MAN will NEVER DENY Belief IN GOD, precisely Because of the Power of God within the man.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[APAK]

Salvation IS a GIFT.
IOW - it is something God HAS, and a man CAN Receive.




You imply, a man who HAS RECEIVED the Gift of Salvation, FROM GOD, is a GIFT, God foolishly Gave, and can HE TAKE IT BACK, Because a man, AFTER HAVING RECEIVED the GIFT, then Rejected God.

This is where I believe your understanding is secular and not spiritual.

When a natural man ACCEPTS GODS GIFT OF SALVATION...."that GIFT" comes with "TERMS".

It IS a precise CHOICE of the man, exercising HIS FREE WILL, to make a CONTRACT, a VOW, a SUBMISSION to the Lord.

You secularly noted, mans Freewill to Choose, then retaining that Freewill to basically "change his mind", and reject his Salvation.

Scripture teaches....God IS TRUTH. His WORD IS TRUTH.

Scripture also teaches....Inasmuch as He is Truth, He "accepts" mans "HEART'S" thoughts as Truth.

When a man CHOOSES to believe in God, and SOLICITE God Himself, (calling on His NAME), to TELL GOD of the man's (exercised Freewill)......God does not LISTEN to a mans MIND.....God LISTENS to the thoughts of a mans "natural spirit", (his "natural truth") in the mans "natural heart".

ONCE that ( a man exercising his own freewill to proclaim to the Lord his belief in his heart) IS accomplished....

The Lord Himself, Forgives the man, for NOT having believed in Him.

The Lord Himself, kills that body of Sin, washes that body of Sin, sanctifies that body of Sin, keeps that sanctified body with Christ, until the day He gives that body it's own glorification change.

Saves the mans soul, BY restoring it to good, By Gods Power;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW heart, that it forever shall be KEPT in Belief;

And Gives the man an everlasting NEW spirit;
That it shall forever have Life in it;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Spirit of LIFE , within the man to KEEP the mans soul, the mans spirit, Forever Alive;

And Gives that man His Own everlasting Truth, written in the mans NEW Heart.

And you propose a man WHO HAS chosen with his own Freewill to Subject himself to ALL OF THIS.....is a man WHO CAN THEREAFTER, supersede Gods Own Power, and undo ALL OF THIS....with his own Mind?

I absolutely do not agree.

Scripture teaches (and perhaps men don't teach so well)....that when a man concludes in his heart to believe in God....

Before jumping in and calling on the Lords Name......TO KNOW what he is commtting to....and to KNOW that it is a PERMANENT VOW....AND TO BE SURE of what he is committing to.

2 Pet 1:10
Wherefore the "rather", brethren,
GIVE DILIGENCE to MAKE "YOUR" CALLING and (your) ELECTION "SURE".

1 Thes 1:4
"KNOWING", brethren beloved,
"YOUR ELECTION OF GOD".

Jas 5:
....let your yea be yea and your nay, nay.

Saving of a mans soul, is completely between the man exercising his own freewill to call on the Lord's Name, with a Confession of Belief in the mans own heart, and the man VOWING to ELECT God, to Give the man the Gift of Salvation.

And no, that is not thereafter undone.
And no, that is not received because of Works of a man.



Faith IS a GIFT from God. When one is hearing/reading the Word of God they are being enlightened, ie being recipients of the TRUTH of God.

When the individual is BELIEVING what they hear/read, they are given measures of Faith.

This is not Saving, this is them receiving Faith, FOR them believing what they hear/read.

Keep hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Keep receiving Faith.

Stop hearing, reading, believing the Word...
The man will Lose receiving Faith.

So can a man Lose Faith? Absolutely.

Can a man WHO is SAVED Lose Faith? No.

The difference is ONE is kept hearing, reading, believing, BY exercising his own freewill.

ONE is kept in Faithfulness, BY Gods Power.

So what about the man WHO claims He believed, WAS SAVED, but is no longer?

We know not, the choice the man made.
Perhaps he chose to submit to God, by the thoughts in his MIND, not his HEART, and then CHANGED HIS MIND.

Was the man EVER SAVED? No.

What about the man WHO claims to be SAVED, but "other men", do not SEE, his "WORKS" as good?

Did the mans "WORKS" save the man? No.

Can another man SEE Gods INTERNAL SAVING and QUICKENING of a mans "soul and spirit" ? No.

So, sure men can hear another mans testimony of being Saved. And men can see another mans Works, and trust to believe the man is Saved.

But how would one man KNOW for sure IF another man IS SAVED?

A SAVED MAN will NEVER DENY Belief IN GOD, precisely Because of the Power of God within the man.

God Bless,
Taken

I do follow your explanation of a true believer... I may have preferred some other phrases and words, although your points are sharp enough to prick my mind and heart and they both agree with you.

We are born with the spirit of man and its associated nature. We are given the opportunity to partake of the same divine nature as Jesus was born with, later in life. We are brothers/(sisters), children of God in Christ sharing the same divine nature as our Lord and savior today. God's grace is surely incalculable.

Grace does not technically save,... per se.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Our Father's grace and our Lord's grace have provided us with the most glorious opportunity (as a gift of life) to gain salvation through our free will and pure untainted faith to engage in a holy agreement with the source of life, for our own eternal life. Why would anyone not want to live in as divine spirit with the same nature as God our Father, forever? We will eventually shed our human nature as Christ did at our physical death.

APAK

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

My point is; Behavior does not UNDO a man having received Salvation.

...then the kingdom will be taken from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it

never did like the pov of salvation as an on/off switch tho

-Left

 

[bbyrd009]

And none of the changes ARE by the effort of the man.

change your mind

sure seems to be. Are you Catholic, bac?

-Left

 

[Taken]

I do follow your explanation of a true believer... I may have preferred some other phrases and words, although your points are sharp enough to prick my mind and heart and they both agree with you.

We are born with the spirit of man and its associated nature. We are given the opportunity to partake of the same divine nature as Jesus was born with, later in life. We are brothers/(sisters), children of God in Christ sharing the same divine nature as our Lord and savior today. God's grace is surely incalculable.

Grace does not technically save,... per se.
(Eph 2:8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Gods Grace is His. It is His own perfection.
It is His own PURE Holiness. IF and WHEN God extends His Grace TO a man... there is a reason He does so.

We are all fallen men...ie the Body of Flesh, born in sin. Yet we are all men, that are more than a Body of Sinful flesh.
Matt 6:25
Luke 12:23

We see the outside. Well, so does God. However beyond the outside, God Sees the inside. He Knows All things. Nothing is new to Him. But "things" are constantly new to us.
He KNOWS the thoughts of our Hearts (ie our natural spirit), BEFORE we do.
Many are called....but few are chosen.
Why does God call many, but not ALL?
Again, He knows the natural spirit in our hearts.

So, WHAT does God See, that men can not?
He SEES, Grace in the man.
What does that mean?
He SEES, the PURE truth in a mans natural spirit, in his natural heart.

How do we know this?
Gen 6:8
But Noah found grace in (..?)
The eyes of the LORD.
John 1:16
....grace FOR grace....

So WHEN, God gives His Grace, it is FOR a man having PURE grace in his own spirit, in his own heart, of Trust to Believe Gods Word.

And the Grace OF God upon a man begins a "snowball" effect of Numerous Blessing and Gifts given the man.....forgiveness, restoration, quickening, eternal life, faithFULLNESS, keeping preserved unto and With God Only, and on and on and on...

Our Father's grace and our Lord's grace have provided us with the most glorious opportunity (as a gift of life) to gain salvation through our free will and pure untainted faith to engage in a holy agreement with the source of life, for our own eternal life.

Absolutely. And it all begins with a man....
Astoundingly in his natrual spirit (natural truth), Trusting to Believe in the Word of God.

Thereafter, everything INTERNAL, is accomplished UNSEEN, By God.

Thereafter, everything EXTERNALLY, (while a man still exists in his life (ie his blood), is accomplished by the mans flesh....ie reading, hearing, studying, testifying, worshiping, works, behaviors between men, etc. SEEN by other men.

Why would anyone not want to live in as divine spirit with the same nature as God our Father, forever?

That question could be answered "according"
To the millions of individual mens own thoughts. We could make an endless list....but I would say, the primary factor is:
Inability to See God; and
Inability to Understand the Knowledge of Gods Word.

We will eventually shed our human nature as Christ did at our physical death.

Oooh rah, Amen!!
A really big deal, as it will happen with ALL the Quickened Together with the Lord....
Becoming Glorified and Seeing Him as He is.
1 John 3:2

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

My point is; Behavior does not UNDO a man having received Salvation.

ha i note that ppl (determinists) still love to debate who could possibly be lost, while Scripture considers who can possibly be saved lol

-Left

 

[BreadOfLife]

QUOTE="Grams, post: 371770, member: 7520"]You are either saved !!! Or Not!

Once saved is for ever............ but what you do on this earth gives you your position in the heavens.........[/QUOTE]

Some say that backsliders were not saved in the first place.

That's NOT what the Bible says.

The Bible speaks of saved, born again people with a full, experiential knowledge of Christ CAN fall away and be lost:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Taken]

change your mind

sure seems to be. Are you Catholic, bac?

-Left

Change the thoughts of my mind?
Sure I can change my mind and do all the time.

Change my the thoughts of my heart?
No. God gave me a New heart, New spirit;
That therefore, by His Power within me that remains Pure and constant with belief and faithfulness unto Him.
Ezekiel 18:31
Ezekiel 36:26

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Change the thoughts of my mind?
Sure I can change my mind and do all the time.

so once again the best i can get is an evasion,
and a leading away from Scripture rather than to it?
minimizing "change your mind" now?

or am i reading that wrong, or what?