You can never lose your salvation!

[Helen]

As I have said before...we do not 'do' to become...we 'do' because we have had a change of masters, and desire to please Him.

 

[JPPT1974]

Indeed By Grace we sure do!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The body of flesh your spirit inhabits is to be in subjection to your will.

That is where you are in error. The body is dead. The flesh cannot please God. The body is not put under subjection to "my will". Your argument that the flesh is no good( I am paraphrasing) and therefore can not be under subjection to God but rather has to come under your own will( with the Spirits help) is totally wrong. It promotes "self". When you are born again and you receive a new Spirit(a new heart); you willingly surrender your will to The will of God. You are a new creature and a part of a new creation. I am sorry but you seem to hate the idea of surrendering your will...but that is what is asked.

You die to self(the flesh) and come under the blood of Jesus Christ. Born new Spirit. His work. HIs grace. His glory.

Romans 8:8-10 KJV
[8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Romans 7:22-25 KJV
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God (which is life); but with the flesh the law of sin. (Which is death)

 

[pia]

We 'do' because we are, we don't 'do' to become.

Amen....

 

[KBCid]

That is where you are in error. The body is dead. The flesh cannot please God. The body is not put under subjection to "my will". Your argument that the flesh is no good( I am paraphrasing) and therefore can not be under subjection to God but rather has to come under your own will( with the Spirits help) is totally wrong.

If my will agrees with God then I am agreeing to be in subjection to his will.
Why have you totally disregarded all the scriptures I put in my various replies? I showed you and others by scriptural reference that my words are not simply things that fall out of a my own mind. The inspired writers that I have referenced over and over are talking to real individuals about overcoming their sinful flesh. If you wish to answer me correctly then you need to explain away all the references I gave that came from the apostles in their communications with the believers of their time. If God is going to make you perfect for God then why are you in existence at all. God can make all the automatons he wants at will. What they can't make is a free willed agent that always accepts their direction thus, there will be a separation of God's children from satans and those children will have willingly submitted of their own free will to one or the other.

 

[Richard_oti]

Nor would I trade it.
I see the Burden only being so during the change from evil to Good. Men become accustomed to a way of existing and thus comfortable in that way. To make a change is where it becomes uncomfortable for them and they perceive it as a new burden to their lifestyle. In the end when they have transitioned and no longer follow the dictates of the flesh then it is not a burden any more as Gods ways become quite easy to follow and a delight to those who like myself have always desired to exist in a kingdom where love is the guide to all people in all places.
Thus for those who feel comfortable in giving in to the desires of their flesh they seek to make God's path into one which makes it so that they do not have to alter their current way of existing as for them it would be a burden to deny their fleshly desires.

Indubitably.

"It seemed the answers were so easy to find ..."

Yeshayahu 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith YHVH, that take counsel, but not of me; and that make a league, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin

 

[Richard_oti]

gotta admit what he is saying sounds good, until we get to the part where confession is absent, ya

If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

 

[Richard_oti]

Your definition of 'grace' is not grace at all. It is nothing but law.

Yet what is grace? And what does it mean to "go and sin no more", especially in light of, "lest a worse thing befall you".

Sinning against God and having an attitude of sinning all I want because I am now saved is not the same thing. And you expressed the attitude of the Christian who believes he cannot lose his salvation as believing he can sin all he wants because he is saved. Which is as I say, ridiculous. And, yes, Abraham was already declared righteous by God. Which means had he not obeyed God, concerning Isaac, he was still saved.

Tit 2:14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works; YLT

What does it mean to be a peculiar people?

IOW: We all know what it means to love our neighbor. I can witness that amoung Christians, Athiests and Pagans.

So what is there in your walk, that if I were to witness your life, that would be demonstrative of your love for "God"? By which I would know that you are peculiar unto "God".

Wilfull sin or sins of ignorance have nothing to do as to whether or not we can lose our salvation. Are you saying you don't sin wilfully? When you do sin wilfully did you lose your salvation? How did you get it back? Or, did you?

Willful sin. Did you read and comprehend Numbers 15:30. The unwillingness or refusal of walking according His Instruction, is reckoned as unbelief.

You don't understand (Heb. 10:26). "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins," Paul here is comparing the many animal sacrifices to the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Now that Christ has given the sacrifice that takes away all sin, we do not seek another sacrifice every time we sin. You just need to read the whole chapter or book. (Heb. 10:1) "For the law having a shadow of good things to come,...can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers there unto perfect." (Heb. 10:18) "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Heb 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ... 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ... 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

That is rather clear why "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"

No, that doesn't sound like a comparison of animal sacrifices. That is clearly stating, that willful sin is to trod underfoot the Son, to count the blood an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the spirit of grace. It is clearly saying that after coming to knowledge of the truth.

No thanks, I'll reject your understanding of it.

What does (Nu. 15:30) have to do with being eternally saved?

IOW: You do not see how it relates to willful sin in Hebrews 10.

What does (Gen. 26:5) have to do with being eternally saved?

Abraham was declared righteous and a friend. And as a friend, what did he do.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.

Well, salvation is free. That is the way God has made it.

Free indeed. But at what cost, is that gift free? For the Son of "God" paid quite the price. Enough it seems to me, not trod underfoot the Son, to count the blood an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the spirit of grace.

I have no problem with our walk of salvation, or our doing good works as a result of our being righteous before God.

Can you name some "works" that I wouldn't witness amoungst atheists or pagans.

That is different than one's initial salvation where he is declared righteous. Our walk of salvation is possible only because our eternal destination has been secured. Our walk of salvation does not add or take away from our being declared righteous before God.

So why would "God" prove Abraham?

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which YHVH thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

What happened to those in the wilderness who "God" did prove? And those who did not "prove", what was it reckoned?

Our judgement will be one of rewards where we can lose. But we only lose rewards, not our salvation. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

Which continues right into vs. 16-17.

(James 2:23) is a quote from (Gen. 15:6). James is not saying Abraham did works and so was declared righteous by God. He is saying Abrahams works are a fulfillment of Abraham being declared righteous by God. "And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God."

So let me ask you: What is "unrighteousness"? How would you define it for me.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
Thus your message is believe in Christ but go on not loving God with all your heart and go on not loving your neighbor.... you will be forgiven all those trespasses because you believe in Christ...

The love of neighbor, is demonstrably the easiest. In practicality perhaps the hardest.

That being said: To truly love YHVH with all one's heart, soul and strength ... Is there anything in one's walk in which this might be demonstrable? Which would be peculiar to the people of YHVH that truly love Him.

 

[Richard_oti]

Okay...now I can see where you are coming from , and agree. Yay! We agree!

Yes, there are things we agree upon. Such as the preaching of love, rather than of condemnation.

Could you answer me this...just interested.
If you did not "uphold His instructions" to the letter, what in your mind would be the outcome?

To the "letter", or in the "spirit"? For the letter in much easier than the "spirit" of the Instruction. I have never physically committed adultery. But before I knew "God" ... and even after, it was a struggle for a time.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I have always found Matthew here interesting and enlightening.

When I fail, I have the same option as you. To confess and repent.

It is something that I take rather seriously, as our beloved Messiah stated: "Go and sin no more" and "lest a worse thing befall you".

For myself, to not uphold or seek to uphold the Instruction of our beloved Father, I may as well be an atheist. But that is me, and that is for myself. That is not directed at you nor anyone else.

And, you did ask <grin>.

I do totally agree in what you said ( I had said "I do because I am, I don't do to "become ".) ..what you said is much clearer..."I do because I love."
Perfect answer. Agree! :)

We better cut that out! It may become habit forming. <chuckle>

I have been told so many times , one way or another by the legalists...and on this site too. That if we don't keep the commandments we are lost.

To which I say:

Jam 4:11 Speak not one against another, brethren. He that speaketh against a brother, or judgeth his brother, speaketh against the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judgest the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge. 12 One only is the lawgiver and judge, even he who is able to save and to destroy: but who art thou that judgest thy neighbor?

Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as men that are to be judged by a law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

As I, 100% believe in once saved always saved

I ain't going there! Obviously I do not believe such.

"To me" as I read the Word...what is lost and at risk, is the 'gifts and rewards' , and nothing to do with salvation!

With that I agree en main. As long as we are not found to amoung those crying out "Lord, Lord", or to whom because we did not love the truth, were sent delusion.

Who knows, perhaps I am of the latter. But I shall trust in YHVH.

Not , many on here seem to see the great difference between our salvation in Christ...and I final placing in the kingdom. Fulfilling the place that Jesus said "I was going to prepare a place for you. ... we are to be "making our calling and election sure"...which to me is not talking about salvation at all, because save is saved. It is talking about overcoming, finishing the course, it is talking about running to receive The Prize ( Himself) in as much or as little closeness in the Kingdom .

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

I know I am a clumsy writer ...but maybe you can interpret the 'tongues' and understand what I am trying to say here.

You manage to get your point across quite well. Besides, I better get the interpretation right lest I get the ol' head slap!

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
I was full of questions after I was converted...

<snip>

I was full of them.

You still are! Oops, did I think that out loud? <grin>


<ducks in attempt to elude the obligatory head slap>

 

[Richard_oti]

Here is a question of each of you who think being righteous in our current state is not God's will for us.

A Man comes to you and says;
I hear that you know of a God that I have not come to know yet and I would like you to tell me what I would need to do in order to follow Him.
Let me first tell you what I have been doing all my life and you can tell me what things I need to do different in order to follow your God;
1) I have been making sacrifices to every god that anyone has ever said existed
2) I have all the little carved images for each god that I take with me at all times
3) I do things at the times of the week or year defined by those gods
4) I hate my parents because they want me to be a certain way
5) I kill people pretty often
6) I get paid to have sex with married women
7) I rob people to make money
8) I tell the authorities that someone else is doing the robbing
9) I am saving everything I can to get a chariot just like my rich neighbor has

So there you have it a pagan is seeking to learn about your God what do you tell him to do?

First things first: You have my permission to shoot the messenger. Oh wait, that'd be me. Oh heck, you still have my permission.


Assuming for a moment that such actually occurred, one is obligated to answer in truth.

However, that which you present is loaded. For as @bbyrd009 would say: "IRL" such an occurrence is highly unlikely. It is, as much as I hate to publicly agree <cough, choke, chuckle> with @"ByGrace", it is the message of "love" and "forgiveness" to which most respond. For myself, I have encountered those who are at their wits end in some way.

OTOH: There are those who are seeking in which case, they respond to 'emet / aletheia. For they are looking for meat, to grow, to mature, and thus are usually already of the faith.

That which you propose above, is not too unlike the circumcision controversy in Acts. You gotta hand it to them, what better way to discourage those turning to "God", than to require circumcision and overwhelm them with haTorah.

As it was so deemed, and as I also conclude, better to instruct them to abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. For that is a good place to begin. From there, they may learn as they hear, as they seek. Each being moved by YHVH according to His working in their life, at the pace He sets for them.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.

Thus demonstrating the "hearing" IMO.


OTOH: In your defense, you are not speaking to people who are turning to "God". You are speaking to those who should by now, have some measure of maturity in the faith.

 

[Stranger]

Yes.
If you are sinning then you are not walking in the spirit, you are walking in the flesh and its desires. This is why the apostles gave all those warnings to the believers in their day. If it was not possible for people who have accepted Christ to turn back to following the fleshly desires then there would have been no need to warn them would there?
Here is some very direct warnings from the inspired writer to those who claim to be Christians. Maybe you can explain to John how he is trying to put believers under the law by not telling them that they are saved by grace SIN AND ALL;


1 John 2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin.
But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. """""""""This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.""""""""""

28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Did you get that last one Stranger? Let me reiterate what John by inspiration of the holy spirit is saying to believing Christians in his time;

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Titus 2:1 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

So what does the Grace of God Teach Stranger?
""""denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world"""""

Concerning (1 John), John writes in stark contrasts of things such as good and evil, light and darkness, sons of God and sons of satan, etc. He is not trying to write any sort of theological treatise which he is trying to convince you by reason as Paul does. He is writing seeing things black and white with experience revealing the issue. At times his statements appear even contradictory.

(1John 1:8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

(1John 1:10) "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

(1John 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

So, John is clear here that we are sinners. And if you claim you are not a sinner, then you are a liar. And if you do sin you can go to Jesus Christ Who is our Advocate. Yet he says in (1 John 3:9) "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

So, I ask you, which verses speak to you? Remember, if you are born of God you cannot sin. Do you sin?

Concerning the verses in (Titus 2:1-12), great verses. How do they teach you can lose your salvation. Just because I believe one cannot lose their salvation does not mean I encourage a life contrary to this. See. You continue on with your assumptions and rewording of grace.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Yet what is grace? And what does it mean to "go and sin no more", especially in light of, "lest a worse thing befall you".




Tit 2:14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works; YLT

What does it mean to be a peculiar people?

IOW: We all know what it means to love our neighbor. I can witness that amoung Christians, Athiests and Pagans.

So what is there in your walk, that if I were to witness your life, that would be demonstrative of your love for "God"? By which I would know that you are peculiar unto "God".




Willful sin. Did you read and comprehend Numbers 15:30. The unwillingness or refusal of walking according His Instruction, is reckoned as unbelief.




Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Heb 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; ... 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ... 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

That is rather clear why "after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins"

No, that doesn't sound like a comparison of animal sacrifices. That is clearly stating, that willful sin is to trod underfoot the Son, to count the blood an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the spirit of grace. It is clearly saying that after coming to knowledge of the truth.

No thanks, I'll reject your understanding of it.




IOW: You do not see how it relates to willful sin in Hebrews 10.




Abraham was declared righteous and a friend. And as a friend, what did he do.

Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you.




Free indeed. But at what cost, is that gift free? For the Son of "God" paid quite the price. Enough it seems to me, not trod underfoot the Son, to count the blood an unholy thing, and to do despite unto the spirit of grace.




Can you name some "works" that I wouldn't witness amoungst atheists or pagans.




So why would "God" prove Abraham?

Deut 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which YHVH thy God hath led thee these forty years in the wilderness, that he might humble thee, to prove thee, to know what was in thy heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or not.

What happened to those in the wilderness who "God" did prove? And those who did not "prove", what was it reckoned?




Which continues right into vs. 16-17.




So let me ask you: What is "unrighteousness"? How would you define it for me.

You create a long post and say nothing concerning whether or not one can lose their salvation. You give no proofs with the verses you give to indicate a loss of salvation. So, why so many questions to me when you are not addressing the issue.

Your best effort was with (Heb. 10:26) to which you just said you reject my understanding. Gee. That settles it. Not. The whole point of (Heb. 10) is the contrast between the many sacrifices under the Old and the One Sacrifice under the New. Thus for we who are under the New, when we sin, do not seek another Sacrifice. Because the One has taken care of it. Of course it is speaking to believers. I never said it wasn't. It just doesn't teach a loss of salvation which is what you want it to teach. It speak of judgement, but not a loss of salvation.

So before coming with so many questions of smoke, address the issue, and prove what you are saying.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Here is a question of each of you who think being righteous in our current state is not God's will for us.

A Man comes to you and says;
I hear that you know of a God that I have not come to know yet and I would like you to tell me what I would need to do in order to follow Him.
Let me first tell you what I have been doing all my life and you can tell me what things I need to do different in order to follow your God;
1) I have been making sacrifices to every god that anyone has ever said existed
2) I have all the little carved images for each god that I take with me at all times
3) I do things at the times of the week or year defined by those gods
4) I hate my parents because they want me to be a certain way
5) I kill people pretty often
6) I get paid to have sex with married women
7) I rob people to make money
8) I tell the authorities that someone else is doing the robbing
9) I am saving everything I can to get a chariot just like my rich neighbor has

So there you have it a pagan is seeking to learn about your God what do you tell him to do?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Stranger

 

[KBCid]

The love of neighbor, is demonstrably the easiest. In practicality perhaps the hardest.
That being said: To truly love YHVH with all one's heart, soul and strength ... Is there anything in one's walk in which this might be demonstrable? Which would be peculiar to the people of YHVH that truly love Him.

Of course, We were created to be the image of God and to reflect them in all our being is to do so in thought and deed. In order to be a peculiar people God's people would of necessity have to appear different than those they live among. Since other men cannot see what is on the inside of a person then the only method that can possibly be observable is the actions they take.

1 Tim 4:11These things command and teach. 12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. 13Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

 

[bbyrd009]

Here is a question of each of you who think being righteous in our current state is not God's will for us.

A Man comes to you and says;
I hear that you know of a God that I have not come to know yet and I would like you to tell me what I would need to do in order to follow Him.
Let me first tell you what I have been doing all my life and you can tell me what things I need to do different in order to follow your God;
1) I have been making sacrifices to every god that anyone has ever said existed
2) I have all the little carved images for each god that I take with me at all times
3) I do things at the times of the week or year defined by those gods
4) I hate my parents because they want me to be a certain way
5) I kill people pretty often
6) I get paid to have sex with married women
7) I rob people to make money
8) I tell the authorities that someone else is doing the robbing
9) I am saving everything I can to get a chariot just like my rich neighbor has

So there you have it a pagan is seeking to learn about your God what do you tell him to do?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Stranger

ok, and when he assures you that he already does that, what then

 

[KBCid]

Assuming for a moment that such actually occurred, one is obligated to answer in truth.
However, that which you present is loaded. For as @bbyrd009 would say: "IRL" such an occurrence is highly unlikely. It is, as much as I hate to publicly agree <cough, choke, chuckle> with @"ByGrace" , it is the message of "love" and "forgiveness" to which most respond. For myself, I have encountered those who are at their wits end in some way.

Of course there was a loading in the question as I depicted what I envisioned of the pagans who had the monument to the unknown god. The intentional loading was to depict a person who had every possible aspect of their existence in accord with what God has shown to be evil or bad. My vision of the meeting was one where the pagan hears of a new god and simply inquires to learn something about this new thing going on. (hey everyone there's a new god being talked about) Thus my post was loaded to see what IF ANY parts of the questioners evils they would feel should be pointed out.
As you have already pointed out just a little later in this post there were indeed rules set for those new to the faith and we both know those were introductory rules / regs. So in essence and the bottom line for that virtual interaction was to show that there are rules unique to God's dictates of worship and we should be able to tell others that there are expectations of conduct for a Christian.
I respect your opinion highly Richard you have been exemplary in your ways since the beginning. If what I have written rubs YOUR spirit the wrong way then I am doing something wrong. You have a highly valid point about the entirety of a truthful message being counter productive and to this I agree based entirely on scripture that we will learn line upon line bit by bit. All must go through a learning process. You cannot stuff it all in from the beginning.

That which you propose above, is not too unlike the circumcision controversy in Acts. You gotta hand it to them, what better way to discourage those turning to "God", than to require circumcision and overwhelm them with haTorah.

And it would be just as your saying for anyone to try to tell all at once.
Of course your reference to circumcision is a bit more personal of a change than modifying your actions lol.
Yet I still whole heartedly agree with your thought there.
(ok here's the deal... in order to get in we are going to have to hack of a piece of your skin off and it must come from this spot here............ awwww hell no!) (it is playing out in my head as I write this... and killing me)

As it was so deemed, and as I also conclude, better to instruct them to abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. For that is a good place to begin. From there, they may learn as they hear, as they seek. Each being moved by YHVH according to His working in their life, at the pace He sets for them.
Act 15:19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
Thus demonstrating the "hearing" IMO.

Indeed here is that reference to the basic rules for "the noobs" as my son calls them and you show by scripture there is a time when the noobs are told about these minimal expectations defined for the gentiles coming to Christ. (ha my kid reading over my shoulder chanting "noobs" to affect my typing)
Have no doubt though your words here are pure gold;
From there, they may learn as they hear, as they seek. Each being moved by YHVH according to His working in their life, at the pace He sets for them.

I humbly submit to this truth.

OTOH: In your defense, you are not speaking to people who are turning to "God". You are speaking to those who should by now, have some measure of maturity in the faith.

This is what comes to mind when you reference maturity in the faith;
1 Cor 5:9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Here it is pointed out that we can't set initial limits to where they should be because then no one could even enter. So entry level would be minimal rules. I also see in this passage there would come a point where one would come to be considered a brother and yet could still exhibit acts of unrighteousness. Of course it is at this point that separation must occur.

 

[Helen]

First things first: You have my permission to shoot the messenger. Oh wait, that'd be me. Oh heck, you still have my permission.


Assuming for a moment that such actually occurred, one is obligated to answer in truth.

However, that which you present is loaded. For as @bbyrd009 would say: "IRL" such an occurrence is highly unlikely. It is, as much as I hate to publicly agree <cough, choke, chuckle> with @"ByGrace", it is the message of "love" and "forgiveness" to which most respond. For myself, I have encountered those who are at their wits end in some way.

OTOH: There are those who are seeking in which case, they respond to 'emet / aletheia. For they are looking for meat, to grow, to mature, and thus are usually already of the faith.

That which you propose above, is not too unlike the circumcision controversy in Acts. You gotta hand it to them, what better way to discourage those turning to "God", than to require circumcision and overwhelm them with haTorah.

As it was so deemed, and as I also conclude, better to instruct them to abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. For that is a good place to begin. From there, they may learn as they hear, as they seek. Each being moved by YHVH according to His working in their life, at the pace He sets for them.

Act 15:19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God; 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.

Thus demonstrating the "hearing" IMO.


OTOH: In your defense, you are not speaking to people who are turning to "God". You are speaking to those who should by now, have some measure of maturity in the faith.

Excellent post...so well said. ( I wish I could write like that and be so clear in what I am saying. )

I thought your other two post to me, were excellent too.. Thank you.
As Agrippa said to Paul- "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian"

 

[KBCid]

ok, and when he assures you that he already does that, what then

A quite interesting reply you have there it would appear that not only "God delights in your unique way of producing fruit!" but I may also be right there with them. You certainly provide a perspective that did not occur to me and yet it contains such a valid consideration.

Indeed what would a Christian say to someone who asserts to holding the same belief and yet admits to knowingly doing nearly every possible thing that God hates. Maybe we can define such a person as a "worldly Christian" who reflects the world and Christ together. I live by my faith but my evil flesh just can't be denied.