Why water into wine?

[BreadOfLife]

Am I the only one in this thread that recognizes this statement as the most ridiculous one ever, apart from BoL who made it?

If anybody else thinks it's as ridiculous as YOU do - then they are as equally ignorant of the English language as YOU . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore - often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[pastor marty]

Have you ever wondered why Jesus changed water into wine as His first miracle?

When you think of it, the majority of the people at the wedding didn’t even know he did it. The servants knew and perhaps His disciples did, but certainly the festive crowd didn’t. So what was the reason for that? Why not heel 10 lepers? That would have been spectacular. Or, what about delivering a demonized individual? That could have been more sensational. Better still, Jesus could have raised a dead person. Now that’s what I call dramatic.

Nope, Jesus changed water into wine. Hmm! Is there maybe more to that than meets the eye. Let’s have a look.

When the wine ran out, Jesus told the servant to fill 6 waterpots with water. We are told that these pots were made of stone. In this command we can glean four pieces of information.

The number 6,
The Waterpots, which were made of
Stone, and then
The Water

Numbers in scripture are significant. They are there for a reason. In our story, the number 6 symbolizes MAN who was created on the 6 day. It is also found elsewhere in scripture. Such as in (Revelation 13:18|) when identifying the MAN of sin with 666.

Waterpots = Containers or vessels. These also relate to MAN who often is identified as a vessel. See (1Thess. 4:4, 1Peter 3:7)

Stone – Note that the scriptures do not characterize the waterpots as made of clay which was the most common at the time. These waterpots are specifically made of stone which, for us, should remind us of the heart of MAN, a heart of stone that changes to a heart of flesh at the touch of the Master. (2Cor. 3:3)

Finally, the water signifies the life of MAN as explained by Jesus to Nicodemus. People must be born of water and of Spirit. (John 3:5)

So what we are seeing in this miracle is an allegory of what the ministry of Jesus is all about. He came to transform these vessels of stone and water into vessel of flesh and fill them with the presence of His Spirit, which in this case is depicted as the New Wine. This can be done through Hid death and resurrection which by the way was on the third day. Did you notice, in verse 1, when this wedding celebration occurred?

Yes, He could have He could have healed ten lepers showing His power over sickness and pain, he could have rebuke a demon showing His power over evil and His enemy or He could have raised the dead proving He was greater than death, the destiny of sinners. However, Jesus came for a higher purpose. That purpose was redemption which eventually would cover all kinds of miracles. So He changed water into wine.

The final noteworthy item in this story is the servants conduct. These servants are likened unto us, who in faith and obedience, follow through at the words of Jesus and received the miracle of changed water into wine. However, we are also called to take that new wine of the Spirit and pour it into the lives of others. We are to become the Bordeaux of benevolence, the Merlots of mercy and the Rosées of reconciliation.

If anybody else thinks it's as ridiculous as YOU do - then they are as equally ignorant of the English language as YOU . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore - often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

If anybody else thinks it's as ridiculous as YOU do - then they are as equally ignorant of the English language as YOU . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore - often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

If anybody else thinks it's as ridiculous as YOU do - then they are as equally ignorant of the English language as YOU . . .

Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray

transitive verb
1: entreat, implore - often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying

intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving

 

[pastor marty]

1. because Bourbon had yet 2B invented.(ans.2 why wine) 2. why Jesus relevant&gimme a scripture 2 prove it.. I din't know the planet "Moron"s WWW reached this far !!

 

[mjrhealth]

And I've been waiting for several weeks now on multiple threads for YOU to tell me why you keep quoting a Catholic Canon of Scripture?

WHO told you what you were quoting is Scripture?

Actually you did, dont you remember ,in about 5 different posts, and sorry but you do not own God, your church never wrote teh text. all your church did was compile them into a book, called teh bible with all its corruption till KJ got a hold of it and corrupted it more than all these publising companies got a hold of it and corrupted it even more.

So see BOL you have nothing, you own nothing, just like the bible says,

Rev_3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

And that is all you have. Nothing but your religion.

 

[perrero]

1. because Bourbon had yet 2B invented.(ans.2 why wine) 2. why Jesus relevant&gimme a scripture 2 prove it.. I din't know the planet "Moron"s WWW reached this far !!

Do you bring anything valuable to the discussion or are you just here to mouth off? Because that first ignorant comment is not a good way to start.

 

[aspen]

I'm wrong about what, exactly?
Can you elaborate?

And your asking me these questions for what purpose?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually you did, dont you remember ,in about 5 different posts, and sorry but you do not own God, your church never wrote teh text. all your church did was compile them into a book, called teh bible with all its corruption till KJ got a hold of it and corrupted it more than all these publising companies got a hold of it and corrupted it even more.

So see BOL you have nothing, you own nothing, just like the bible says,

Rev_3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

And that is all you have. Nothing but your religion.

Sooooo, YOU think the Catholic Church is evil and godless - yet YOU quote Scripture because the Catholic Church declared the Canon??

Another nonsensical answer from a member of an online cult . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And your asking me these questions for what purpose?

Because you said I was "wrong" about something - yet you're afraid to tell me what it is that I was "wrong" about.
You've also failed on the last 10 or so posts to tell me exactly HOW I "manipulated" history - another thing you accused me of.

You shouldn't open your mouth unless you can back it up . . .

 

[Stranger]

Gee, I HATE to point out the obvious to you - but John was writing about the Seven Churches of ASIA.
Notice that there is also no mention if the Church in Jerusalem or Corinth or Thessalonica or Antioch or Philippi or a lot of other places.

Please do your homework before responding . . .

Rome sees herself over all churches. Yet Rome is not mentioned in any way shape or form concerning these 7 churches. Note they are the 7 churches of Asia. They are not the Catholic churches of Rome.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

@ BreadOfLife

Sorry for not communicating well.

When I was Catholic only small portions of scripture were read in a language I could understand. I used to wish that someone would read more. I was just a young lad, and while being hungry and thirsty for His righteousness I was seldom fed what I needed. Certainly in part of it may have been my own fault, but the ones whose job it should have been to see to it did little to help the situation.

Now, I drink the blood of Jesus daily whether I attend a service with other people or not.

Rituals, be they Catholic or Protestant, would not bother me if they were performed and acknowledged in the right Spirit. Very often in my experience in either church place they are not.

Thank you for clarifying that Ignatius language was Greek. My own Greek is non-existent.

Indeed, facts are not a matter of opinion, but nevertheless all of us still insist on give ours at times as if they were facts.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Rome sees herself over all churches. Yet Rome is not mentioned in any way shape or form concerning these 7 churches. Note they are the 7 churches of Asia. They are not the Catholic churches of Rome.

Stranger

WOW.

Why would the Church at Rome be mentioned if only the Churches in Asia are being written to??
Why would the Church at Rome be mentioned if the issues being discussed didn't pertain to them??

As I stated before - the Churches in Corinth, Phippii, Thessalonica, Antioch and Jerusalem weren't mentioned either, so your point is empty and impotent.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@ BreadOfLife

Sorry for not communicating well.

When I was Catholic only small portions of scripture were read in a language I could understand. I used to wish that someone would read more. I was just a young lad, and while being hungry and thirsty for His righteousness I was seldom fed what I needed. Certainly in part of it may have been my own fault, but the ones whose job it should have been to see to it did little to help the situation.

Now, I drink the blood of Jesus daily whether I attend a service with other people or not.

Rituals, be they Catholic or Protestant, would not bother me if they were performed and acknowledged in the right Spirit. Very often in my experience in either church place they are not.

Thank you for clarifying that Ignatius language was Greek. My own Greek is non-existent.

Indeed, facts are not a matter of opinion, but nevertheless all of us still insist on give ours at times as if they were facts.

No need to apologize, amadeus. As a matter of fact - I apologize if I misunderstood you..
You're one of the only honest non-Catholic posters here and I enjoy talking to you.

I am a little curious about one thing you said, though. You said you drink the blood of Jesus daily.
How do you do this?

 

[mjrhealth]

Sooooo, YOU think the Catholic Church is evil and godless - yet YOU quote Scripture because the Catholic Church declared the Canon??

Another nonsensical answer from a member of an online cult . . .

No i quote the bible because you listen to nothing else, and as I said your church does not own God as you seem to profess, neither did your church write the text, you have no "copyright" own them , no one owns God.

As for evil well, priests that rape children are form who, cardinal that sell drugs and have homosexual sex are from where, a church that forces people to join at pain of death is what...., a religion that sells salvation at a price is from where,


Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): "We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned..."

Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to "...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ's sentence." For this "heresy" Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council's decree "Wycliffe's bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River."

Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, all the yelling in the world cannot turn a lie into the truth. It is built on a lie it has no truth.

1525: Six thousand copies of William Tyndale’s
English translation of the New Testament were
printed in Cologne, Germany, and smuggled into
England—and then burned by the English church.



“Tyndale wrote that the Church authorities
banned translation into the mother tongue
“to keep the world still in darkness,
to the intent they might sit through vain
superstition and false doctrine, to satisfy
their filthy lusts, their proud ambition,
and insatiable covetousness, and to exalt their
own honour… above God himself.” “
–William Tyndale’s New Testament.
Worms (Germany), 1526
British Library C.188.a.17
Copyright © The British Library Board
ONLINE GALLERY
LANDMARKS IN PRINTING

 

[aspen]

@ BreadOfLife

Sorry for not communicating well.

When I was Catholic only small portions of scripture were read in a language I could understand. I used to wish that someone would read more. I was just a young lad, and while being hungry and thirsty for His righteousness I was seldom fed what I needed. Certainly in part of it may have been my own fault, but the ones whose job it should have been to see to it did little to help the situation.

Now, I drink the blood of Jesus daily whether I attend a service with other people or not.

Rituals, be they Catholic or Protestant, would not bother me if they were performed and acknowledged in the right Spirit. Very often in my experience in either church place they are not.

Thank you for clarifying that Ignatius language was Greek. My own Greek is non-existent.

Indeed, facts are not a matter of opinion, but nevertheless all of us still insist on give ours at times as if they were facts.

It's funny, your experience reminds me of mine, but I was Protestant and stuck with the KJV in first grade at a Christian school. Adults often miss out on the best way to share the gospel with kids

 

[Stranger]

WOW.

Why would the Church at Rome be mentioned if only the Churches in Asia are being written to??
Why would the Church at Rome be mentioned if the issues being discussed didn't pertain to them??

As I stated before - the Churches in Corinth, Phippii, Thessalonica, Antioch and Jerusalem weren't mentioned either, so your point is empty and impotent.

Wow....exactly! The issues being discussed didn't pertain to the church at Rome. The Roman church was neither here nor there.

Wow...my point is made. The church at Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Antioch and Jeursalem, were not claiming to be Catholic, as the church at Rome wants to claim.

Stranger

 

[amadeus]

No need to apologize, amadeus. As a matter of fact - I apologize if I misunderstood you..
You're one of the only honest non-Catholic posters here and I enjoy talking to you.

I am a little curious about one thing you said, though. You said you drink the blood of Jesus daily.
How do you do this?

I am afraid my answer to this question will raise some eyebrows on both the Catholic and the Protestant sides. I don't take communion as the Catholics do, nor even as most Protestants probably do in the natural sense of eating a bit of bread or wafer or cracker, nor of drinking a little grape juice or wine. Rather..

...We are to eat and drink of Jesus for He is the Word of God!

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

When we read the Bible or listen to it read we are partaking of it, but this alone will not bring us to Life, if we are still dead to God. Another ingredient is required!

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Lev 17:11

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

His blood is the Life giver! Even as we eat of the Word, which He is, so also we must drink of His spiritual blood which is not the red liquid that was drain from His Body but the Spirit of God!

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

We need to partake of the scripture and have it brought to Life in us by His Spirit which is the blood of eternal Life.

 

[amadeus]

It's funny, your experience reminds me of mine, but I was Protestant and stuck with the KJV in first grade at a Christian school. Adults often miss out on the best way to share the gospel with kids

I was "jumped" back and forth. My father and all of his immediate family were always Pentecostal Holiness. They remained so the rest of the lives. My mother left my father divorcing him near the end of WWII and moving to California where she married an American Portugee whose family was always Roman Catholic. When I was at home in California I was the only active Catholic in my family. When I went to Oklahoma to visit my father, I was immersed with them in their active Pentecostalism. For all of that I read a Bible myself for the first time [KJV] at the age of 32 years through a United Pentecostal Church (Oneness, Jesus Only).

I left all of those behind in 1987 [at 43 years of age] when I moved from Wyoming to Oklahoma with my wife and our two children. A brand new start outside of all of those above...

My wife and I homeschooled our two children in Wyoming and Oklahoma. In California they had attended Christian schools.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am afraid my answer to this question will raise some eyebrows on both the Catholic and the Protestant sides. I don't take communion as the Catholics do, nor even as most Protestants probably do in the natural sense of eating a bit of bread or wafer or cracker, nor of drinking a little grape juice or wine. Rather..

...We are to eat and drink of Jesus for He is the Word of God!

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

When we read the Bible or listen to it read we are partaking of it, but this alone will not bring us to Life, if we are still dead to God. Another ingredient is required!

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul." Lev 17:11

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

His blood is the Life giver! Even as we eat of the Word, which He is, so also we must drink of His spiritual blood which is not the red liquid that was drain from His Body but the Spirit of God!

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

We need to partake of the scripture and have it brought to Life in us by His Spirit which is the blood of eternal Life.

Sorry to disagree but there are some problems for you in the Greek text in John 6.

In the Bread of Life Discourse (John 6:25-71), our Lord emphatically states that unless we eat his flesh and drink his Blood, we have no life within us. He goes on to say “For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.” It is interesting to note that the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”, however, this is not the word used in these passages. St. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was again using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was not speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.

Later, John 6:66, goes on to say, “As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”
This marks the only time in Scripture where Jesus’ disciples left him for doctrinal reasons. They simply couldn’t handle what Jesus was telling them.

What does Jesus do after this?? He turns to the Apostles - NOT to explain anything, but simply to ask, "Do you ALSO want to leave?"

There is another problem for you at the Last Supper.
Here, Jesus blesses the bread and wine and states that they are now his FLESH and BLOOD. He doesn't say that His Word is His flesh and blood - nor does He say that what He is holding in His hands is a "SYMBOL" of His flesh and blood.

We simply cannot get around the fact that Jesus was instituting the Eucharist - His flesh and blood.
Just as the Jewish Paschal Lamb was to be devoured - so is our Paschal Lamb, Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wow....exactly! The issues being discussed didn't pertain to the church at Rome. The Roman church was neither here nor there.

Wow...my point is made. The church at Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Antioch and Jeursalem, were not claiming to be Catholic, as the church at Rome wants to claim.

Stranger

Nice try, but no cigar . . .

The Church in Rome doesn't have to be mentioned every time there uiis an issue or commendation regarding ANY Parish.
The 7 Churches in Asia, along with the Churches at Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonica, Antioch and Jerusalem, were parishes.

If the issue does all the way up the ladder - then the Church in Rome would be mentioned.
Otherwise - there is no need.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No i quote the bible because you listen to nothing else, and as I said your church does not own God as you seem to profess, neither did your church write the text, you have no "copyright" own them , no one owns God.

As for evil well, priests that rape children are form who, cardinal that sell drugs and have homosexual sex are from where, a church that forces people to join at pain of death is what...., a religion that sells salvation at a price is from where,

Decree of the Council of Toulouse (1229 C.E.): "We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books."

Ruling of the Council of Tarragona of 1234 C.E.: "No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned..."

Proclamations at the Ecumenical Council of Constance in 1415 C.E.: Oxford professor, and theologian John Wycliffe, was the first (1380 C.E.) to translate the New Testament into English to "...helpeth Christian men to study the Gospel in that tongue in which they know best Christ's sentence." For this "heresy" Wycliffe was posthumously condemned by Arundel, the archbishop of Canterbury. By the Council's decree "Wycliffe's bones were exhumed and publicly burned and the ashes were thrown into the Swift River."

Fate of William Tyndale in 1536 C.E.: William Tyndale was burned at the stake for translating the Bible into English. According to Tyndale, the Church forbid owning or reading the Bible to control and restrict the teachings and to enhance their own power and importance.

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit, all the yelling in the world cannot turn a lie into the truth. It is built on a lie it has no truth.

1525: Six thousand copies of William Tyndale’s English translation of the New Testament were printed in Cologne, Germany, and smuggled into England—and then burned by the English church.

“Tyndale wrote that the Church authorities banned translation into the mother tongue “to keep the world still in darkness, to the intent they might sit through vain superstition and false doctrine, to satisfy their filthy lusts, their proud ambition, and insatiable covetousness, and to exalt their own honour… above God himself.” “
–William Tyndale’s New Testament.
Worms (Germany), 1526
British Library C.188.a.17
Copyright © The British Library Board
ONLINE GALLERY
LANDMARKS IN PRINTING

And, as usual - your ignorance of history clouds the issue.
First of all - the Bible was not kept out of the hands of the masses.

For your information, over 85% of the general public was fuctionally illiterate. As a matter of fact, my historically-bankrupt friend - over two thirds of the entire world was illiterate as late as the dawn of the 20th century.

Bibles were HANDWRITTEN before thew 15th century and the invention of the printing press. Because of this - they were very hard to come by and very expensive so MOST people couldn't afford one anyway. They were chained to pulpits around the world because of their value.

Decrees were issued forbidding anybody to own renegade copies because of the perversions and errors contained in them.
These perversions led to the Protestant Revolt. and this is why the Canon was officially closed at the Council of Trent.

Do your homework, for crying out loud . . .