The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.

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laBonhomme

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What is the stated penalty in the law? Seems the natural consequence of the deed is enough.
And why would God not have mercy on one who has determined they are better off not remaining in the land of the living?

/
Don't worry, homie, the anti-Suicide law doesn't apply to you. It's a religious French law from before the revolution, which separated the French church from the French state, as is de rigour in a modern republic.

The jurisprudence of it included the fact that God created the world good, so if you kill yourself to escape it this shows that you are against God. As for your question about whether the natural consequence is enough, you seem to have some nonlinear thought in that sentence. What's your problem with death, seeing that you think the world can be so miserable that you'd commit homicide to try to escape it? You don't believe in Hell anyway, so obviously if the person dies, in your mind nothing further happened to him.
 

St. SteVen

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The jurisprudence of it included the fact that God created the world good, so if you kill yourself to escape it this shows that you are against God.
That seems like a total disregard for what brings a person to that point. Not a random thoughtless act. An indication that something is terribly wrong. And likely has nothing to do with the victim's position toward God.

As for your question about whether the natural consequence is enough, you seem to have some nonlinear thought in that sentence.
Capital punishment is death. Nothing can be inflicted beyond that.

What's your problem with death, seeing that you think the world can be so miserable that you'd commit homicide to try to escape it? You don't believe in Hell anyway, so obviously if the person dies, in your mind nothing further happened to him.
My issue is with the apparent disregard for what brings a person to that point. (as stated earlier) Treatment for attempted suicide is telling.

We will all die, and certainly something further will happen to everyone in the afterlife.
There will be judgment, correction, restoration, and redemption for all.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

/
 

Cyd

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Yeah, I know. Judas is said to have repented, but the forgot to repent to Jesus, who was dead on the cross by then. Also, he's supposed to have repented in the temple, but he had a bad attitude about it, the narrative sates that he threw the money on the floor and left, which isn't how repenting is done in the temple, the laws of confession and sacrifice are in Deuteronomy.

The most important thing about that scene is that it's the basis of the law against suicide.
The fact that Judas threw the silver to me makes me wonder if they deceived Judas. Repenting is to God to me.. are you saying that no person can be or was ever saved in the OT? God is the same changes not.. Salvation to me was there in the OT people led wrong is all. Messiah said as I have said before.. with red neon lights flashing haha Mt 22:37-40 do you not believe this, that is law you state, who are we to say Judas didn't feel that way? Plus the disciples and following Messiah. He told them to stay under the Pharisees Mt 23:1-3 to much is missing for me to judge it plus as said he was called friend. Plus a scripture pointed out to me this a.m. it was Peter that Messiah said get thee behind me satan to not Judas.
 
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St. SteVen

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Excerpt from the OP.

"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"
Perhaps Jesus understood this better than we do.

Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

[
 

St. SteVen

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Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

"To love a betrayer, a person who seeks your actual harm and
who slanders you, is a part of our faith (Luke 6:22; 1 Peter 4:4). It literally is
the story of Jesus Christ. Also a part of our faith is the separation between Holy and unholy,
as was stated previously, between friend and foes, which will lead to separation
even amongst family (Luke 12:53). Loving a person who seeks to harm us lays hot coals
on the heads of the betrayer (Romans 12:20), but it also is most Christ like
when done so. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) and it creates a pathway
for redemption (2 Corinthians 5:16-21) as we see people as more than just
flesh and blood, we see them as souls to be redeemed." Source

[
 

marks

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"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"
Love Judas? Are you kidding? You can't do that!

You've never met Judas, he's no longer alive, so you do not have the opportunity to love Judas. You can purport to "love" a fictionalized image of Judas you imagine in your mind, but that has nothing to do with loving a person.

In this case, the person is long gone. Whatever are you thinking?! I guess it sounded good on paper?

Much love!
 

Magdala

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"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"

Perhaps Jesus understood this better than we do.
As indicated in this scripture.

John 13:26-28 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give
this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.”
Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.

Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

"To love a betrayer, a person who seeks your actual harm and
who slanders you, is a part of our faith (Luke 6:22; 1 Peter 4:4). It literally is
the story of Jesus Christ. Also a part of our faith is the separation between Holy and unholy,
as was stated previously, between friend and foes, which will lead to separation
even amongst family (Luke 12:53). Loving a person who seeks to harm us lays hot coals
on the heads of the betrayer (Romans 12:20), but it also is most Christ like
when done so. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) and it creates a pathway
for redemption (2 Corinthians 5:16-21) as we see people as more than just
flesh and blood, we see them as souls to be redeemed." Source

/ @TonyChanYT

In support of what you're saying about Judas, and those like him, I'm sharing what Jesus dictated to Maria Valtorta on May 16th, 1947:

"And who is the apostle I loved most? It is Judas Iscariot. Do not stare in disbelief or give a start. It's true. I loved Judas Iscariot more than anyone else. And now I'll explain to you and you'll understand.

John was the beloved one. Everyone knows. And everyone knows the truth. He was good, pure, and faithful. It is obvious that he attracted the love of God and the love of the Man that is, the love of Jesus the God-Man.

But tell me: is it more wearisome to perform an action demanding continuous effort which we know beforehand will be futile or to perform another which, instead of effort, involves joy and repose in carrying it out? The former, isn't it? And who will have more merit? The one carrying out the former or the latter? In the former case, where the sole purpose is to do one's full duty with no hope of receiving compensation, or in the latter, where minute by minute we are amply repaid for what we are doing? Whoever carries out the former act will have more merit.

And, to continue, do you know what kind of love people have who, out of the heroism of love alone and duty towards God and their brothers and sisters, go on showing interest and concern in bringing their wicked brothers and sisters benefit and trying to make them good and glorify the Lord? They have perfect love. The love which carries out everything and forgives everything, overcoming all, moved by the perfect end of doing the work which is pleasing to God. Do they not succeed? Is it clear that they do not succeed? Is it clear that God knows they do not succeed? It doesn't matter. They act, all the same. It is the heroism of duty done to perfection. And it also shows perfection in sentiment. For if people did not love in God those who they know are delinquents, traitors, and incorrigible in their perverse sentiments, they could not love such delinquents. But they love them with the sublime love which swelled my Heart on the Cross when I was not praying for the just, but calling for the Father's forgiveness of those who were my killers.

This is the love I want in you for all those who hate you.... If only you knew how this love we give to those who are our unbending enemies—the unconvertible—works miracles! Directly, in terms of themselves, as was the love of Stephen for Saul, a love which obtained for the latter an encounter with Me on the road to Damascus, or indirectly.

Love is not lost. Not even an infinitesimal part of love, of this coin, of this yeast, of this balm which is love, remains with out fruit. Gathered in by the angels, noted by God, it rises into the treasury of Heaven and there serves—oh, mysterious operations by God!—to acquire, bring growth to, and treat souls slaves of Satan, immobile souls in their newly-fashioned justice, wounded and sick souls. The love given for the conversion of our crucifiers and remaining without fruit for them on account of their perverse will, goes on to fecundate other souls for grace who are unknown on earth, but will be known in Heaven.

Listen further, getting back to Judas. I said, "Whoever loves much will be forgiven much." It is true, and it is just. The more people love, the more they deserve forgiveness by those offended. But, in addition, those who forgive more show they love much. And those who forgive all at all times—at all times everything, until the hour of judgment comes—love, not much, but totally. That is the way I loved Judas Iscariot. Totally. I also loved the others that way, especially John. But it was a matter of justice to love them like that. They were good, even in their defects, and they love Me with all their strength. Were they small, imperfect? Were they so until the end, until the Holy Spirit renewed them? It doesn't matter. It was all their strength. But Judas! But Judas! To love Judas! To love Judas completely, when I was aware of every wrinkle in his tenebrous heart! To love him because we are told, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself"!

You see, soul of mine, many repeat this command, from pulpits, teaching chairs, altars, and confessionals ... and believe they are fully familiar with it, for they say, 'The second commandment is to love one's neighbor as oneself." But few-few spiritual teachers in relation to the many spiritually ignorant bring people to consider something essential to the commandment of love. And it is this. The statement 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself is made without specifying whether the neighbor is good, evil, submissive or unruly, loving or hateful. No, "You shall love your neighbor' is affirmed. Entirely. Good or evil. With joyful or painful love. But always your neighbor as a whole.

This love for the entirety of one's neighbor demands a spirit of highly perfected mercy, meekness, and humility. For it is hard—hard, indeed—to be able to love certain neighbors! One must be very, very well grounded in charity to be able to do so. But here, too, you do not lack a model. Here is your model: I am, Jesus! Imitate Me, and you will be perfect as I want you to be for your eternal joy.

The horrendous, shadowy figure of Judas that I have so amply displayed in the Work is not without a purpose. I certainly did not take pleasure in describing that tangle of hellish snakes! But I revealed it to you because, in doing so, I also revealed the way spiritual teachers and all Christians as well must act to wards the many Judases peopling the earth, whom none can fail to encounter during their mortal day.

To spiritual teachers and all others I say, 'Imitate Me in this perfect love, and you will possess a love like that of Jesus, your Teacher.” (The Notebooks: 1945-1950, pp. 394-397)
 
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Ronald Nolette

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"Say what?"
"Love Judas? We hate Judas!"
"He betrayed our Lord! Why would we love Judas?"

Perhaps Jesus understood this better than we do.
As indicated in this scripture.

John 13:26-28 NIV
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give
this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.”
Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot.
27 As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.”
28 But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.

Did Jesus love Judas?
If Jesus loved Judas, shouldn't we?

"To love a betrayer, a person who seeks your actual harm and
who slanders you, is a part of our faith (Luke 6:22; 1 Peter 4:4). It literally is
the story of Jesus Christ. Also a part of our faith is the separation between Holy and unholy,
as was stated previously, between friend and foes, which will lead to separation
even amongst family (Luke 12:53). Loving a person who seeks to harm us lays hot coals
on the heads of the betrayer (Romans 12:20), but it also is most Christ like
when done so. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8) and it creates a pathway
for redemption (2 Corinthians 5:16-21) as we see people as more than just
flesh and blood, we see them as souls to be redeemed." Source

/ @TonyChanYT
While he was alive, yes. we do not have omniscience and do not know whom god will save. but as Judas was called the son of perdition. Once dead- He is receiving the eternal wrath He deserves. God no longer loves him, we should not either.

We love John 3:16 but too many believers forget this verse is just as true as well:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
 

marks

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46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
A new commandment I give you, to love even as I have loved you.

Much love!
 

Magdala

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Are you sure?
Perhaps you have missed the point of this thread.
Are we to love Judas while God hates him?

Judas chose, of his own will, to separate Himself from God in this life, which carried into the next for eternity. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't love Him, because He did, and the most, but Judas rejected His love, didn't feel remorse, and thus refused to seek forgiveness.
 

St. SteVen

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Judas chose, of his own will, to separate Himself from God in this life, which carried into the next for eternity. It doesn't mean Jesus didn't love Him, because He did, and the most, but Judas rejected His love, didn't feel remorse, and thus refused to seek forgiveness.
Didn't feel remorse?
He committed suicide over it. (and returned the silver)

[
 

Magdala

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Didn't feel remorse?
He committed suicide over it. (and returned the silver)

On August 1st, 1943, Jesus dictated the following to Maria Valtorta:

"When Judas no longer believed in Me, in the satisfaction of money, or in the protection of human law, he killed himself. Remorse over his crime? No. If it had been that, he would have killed himself immediately after grasping that I knew. But not then, not after the vile kiss and the loving greeting, not then, not when he saw Me spat upon, bound, dragged away amidst a thousand insults. Only after having understood that the law did not protect him—the poor human law, which often creates or provokes crime, but afterwards washes its hands of its executors or accomplices and, if need be, turns against them and, after having used them, strikes them dumb forever by eliminating them—and only after having understood that power and money were not forthcoming or were too base to produce happiness, only then did he kill himself. He was in the darkness of nothingness. He cast himself into the darkness of hell." (The Notebooks: 1943)

On March 30th, 1949, Jesus dictated the following to Maria Valtorta:

“[…] for Judas was bold in his crime and, though knowing he was revealing himself in his full horror and branding himself forever with the world’s disdain as long as the world existed, he defied everything and came, in the presence of a people whose reactions he did not know, to point Me out to the assassins. He professed himself to be my disciple by that act and did not deny it; he was and wanted to be known as the ‘betrayer’ and the ‘deicide.’”

“In reality, the thirty coins were the heavy stone which Judas tied around his neck to plunge into the abyss, and the mad hope of triumphing in just any way—after he had been unable to be the ‘great one’ of Christ, King of Israel—was the rope which made him a suicide, deprived of Life and life eternally dead, dead, dead; eternally satan, satan, satan. The second Lucifer for God the Son as the first Lucifer was such for God the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, both of them rebels, proud, and greedy and both of them struck down—the Archangel and the Apostle—by Divine Justice.”

“As Judas, to get a justification for his iniquitous action, by every means sought to make Me appear as a sinner, in such a way that he would appear as a just man tormentedly acting against his friend to give honor to God, to persuade the uncertain that I was a false Christ, and to fortify the adversaries, in order to crown his mad dream.”

“The third great, mysterious, and inexplicable defection is that of Judas Iscariot, who spontaneously wanted to belong to Christ, who enjoyed his love for three years and fed on his Word, and who, because he was disappointed in his concupiscent dreams, sold Him for thirty denarii, changing from an apostle—that is, chosen for the highest spiritual dignity—into the betrayer of the Friend, the deicide and suicide.”

(The Notebooks: 1945-1950, pp. 483-520;572-609)
 
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