Run that by me again, Moses

[Lambano]

Rather than the Hebrew shaliah, John might (well, he did) use the Greek term παράκλητος ("parakletos", 1 John 2:1), meaning our Advocate or our "Lawyer". It invokes imagery of Jesus being our agent before God. If I understood your definition, the nature of the God-Man relationship would necessarily entail that the shaliah is backed by power; the parakletos is not. In fact, in this relationship, our parakletos has the power; we have none.

But what I had in mind is that Atonement Theory posits that Jesus also acted in our place on the cross. Good Friday on my mind.

 

[Matthias]

When we ask the Father for something in Jesus's name, are we not effectively telling Jesus how we want him to represent us before the Father?

When I pray to the Father, I speak directly to him.

At least, Jesus seems to be saying He will treat it as such.

When I pray to Jesus, I speak directly to him. I’ve asked him to do something for me or for others but I’ve never told him what to do for me or for others.

 

[Matthias]

I will. Sure enough - the Old Testament prophets didn't use words that didn't exist yet!

The word ousia existed in Greek culture. It occurs in the New Testament.

G3776 - ousia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3776 - οὐσία ousía, oo-see'-ah; from the feminine of ; substance, i.e. property (possessions):—goods, substance.

www.blueletterbible.org

They do, however, speak of "the Angel of the LORD" and "The Word of the Lord" and "The Spirit of the Lord."

The angel of the Lord is an angel. The word of the Lord is God’s self-expression. The spirit of the Lord is God’s operational presence and power; personal but not another person. There is a close connection in scripture between spirit and mind.

This isn't quite the slam-dunk you make it out to be.

It is in Jewish monotheism, and that is the context of the New Testament setting.

And I'm not even a Trinitarian by your definition!

I don’t have a personal definition of “trinitarian”. Orthodoxy does. That is what I use.

P.S.

If I were to define “trinitarian” simply as someone who believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, would you accept that?

 

[Lambano]

I’ve asked him to do something for me or for others but I’ve never told him what to do for me or for others.

Are the key words, "ask" vs. "tell"?

I thought about the power dynamic and retroactively added some words about it, but you beat me to it.

 

[Matthias]

Are the key words, "ask" vs. "tell"?

Yes.

 

[Lambano]

The word ousia existed in Greek culture. It occurs in the New Testament.

The question of Jesus's nature, during His earthly life, in His pre-existent form when He was somehow instrumental (or God's agent) in Creation, in His current (presumably) exalted form, and His future ruling form, that is the question pushing the development of the close-handed doctrine. What IS He? And how is there continuity between forms?

I don't know if the question is answerable. Or even knowable.

 

[Matthias]

The question of Jesus's nature, during His earthly life, in His pre-existent form when He was somehow instrumental (or God's agent) in Creation, in His current (presumably) exalted form, and His future ruling form, that's the question behind the development of the close-handed doctrine. What IS He? And how is their continuity between forms?

I don't know if the question is answerable. Or even knowable.

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you want to look at it, as someone who is registered “Other Faith“ I’m permitted by the rules - within limits - to openly express my dissent from trinitarianism.

Trinitarians are free to condemn me for my conscientious objection to their doctrine. Their creeds do.

The question might be put to me, but in my nearly three years here hasn’t been, if I condemn trinitarians. The answer to that question is no. I don’t know what God and the Messiah will do with them and I leave it in their hands.

The earliest Christians were Jewish monotheists. Trinitarianism came later in Christianity. I don’t deny that trinitarians are Christians. I don’t accept their denial that Jewish monotheists can be Christian and still retain belief in Jewish monotheism.

 

[Lambano]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you want to look at it, as someone who is registered “Other Faith“ I’m permitted by the rules - within limits - to openly express my dissent from trinitarianism.

And I regret that things are the way they are, for I still embrace you as a brother in Christ.

 

[Wick Stick]

The word ousia existed in Greek culture. It occurs in the New Testament.

G3776 - ousia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3776 - οὐσία ousía, oo-see'-ah; from the feminine of ; substance, i.e. property (possessions):—goods, substance.

www.blueletterbible.org

I'm a little confused by this... you claimed they DIDN'T talk about this in the OLD Testament, then I agreed, and now you're saying they DID in the NEW Testament... what in contradiction of your previous claim? Are we just disagreeing for the sake of disagreement now? What's going on?

The angel of the Lord is an angel.

Generically true, but... more than that, I think. It appears the angel of the LORD is the LORD but taken on the physical presence of an angel. See the story of Abraham's visitation.

The word of the Lord is God’s self-expression.

Again not wrong, but more. Virtually every prophecy of the OT starts with "the Word of the LORD came to [insert prophet's name here]." The New Testament authors read those as VISITATIONS. Not visitations by the "2nd person of the Trinity" necessarily, but it's more than just "I heard God." Those messages were hand-delivered.

The spirit of the Lord is God’s operational presence and power; personal but not another person. There is a close connection in scripture between spirit and mind.

I think I agree with this for the most part.

I don’t have a personal definition of “trinitarian”. Orthodoxy does. That is what I use.

P.S.

If I were to define “trinitarian” simply as someone who believes in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, would you accept that?

I would match that description better, but that isn't really the whole 3-in-1 concept, is it? Nearly as I can tell...

"Father" and "Son" make one coherent metaphor.
"Spirit" and "Word" make another coherent metaphor.
When you get to "Father" and "Son" and "Spirit" you have mixed your metaphors.

 

[marks]

I’m consistent

Yes, you are consistent, that's what I'm saying. There is no surprise here. And one day you will know the truth, and play time will be over.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Again not false, but more. Virtually every prophecy of the OT starts with "the Word of the LORD came to [insert prophet's name here]." The New Testament authors read those as VISITATIONS. Not visitations by the "2nd person of the Trinity" necessarily, but it's more than just "I heard God." Those messages were hand-delivered.

1 Peter 1:10-12 LITV
10) About which salvation the prophets sought out and searched out, prophesying concerning the grace for you,
11) searching for what, or what sort of time the Spirit of Christ made clear within them; testifying beforehand of the sufferings belonging to Christ, and the glories after these.
12) To whom it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us they ministered the same things, which now were announced to you by those having preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; into which things angels long to look into.

I think it's safe to say that the prophets received their prophecies from Jesus. And this is declared to be the Word of YHWH.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

And I regret that that things are so, for I still embrace you as a brother in Christ.

“For he who is not against us is for us.”

(Mark 9:40, WEB)

That is how I think about people like you. Even if it were in my power to condemn you - and to be clear, it isn’t and never will be - I can’t condemn someone who is for us. I have good reason to believe that God, through the Messiah, will recognize and reward you in the age to come.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, you are consistent, that's what I'm saying. There is no surprise here.

Thank you. If I’m not consistent then that would be an issue I would need to correct.

And one day you will know the truth, and play time will be over.

Much love!

I know the truth and this isn’t play time.

 

[Matthias]

I'm a little confused by this... you claimed they DIDN'T talk about this in the OLD Testament, then I agreed, and now you're saying they DID in the NEW Testament... what in contradiction of your previous claim? Are we just disagreeing for the sake of disagreement now? What's going on?

I’m sorry for the confusion caused by my post. All I did was share with you a word search for occurrences of the Greek word ousia in the New Testament. The word is used there but not in the way that the Nicenes use the word.

I hope that clears it up. Please let me know if it doesn’t.

 

[Wick Stick]

I think it's safe to say that the prophets received their prophecies from Jesus. And this is declared to be the Word of YHWH.

Yes

 

[Wick Stick]

I’m sorry for the confusion caused by my post. All I did was share with you a word search for occurrences of the Greek word ousia in the New Testament. The word is used there but not in the way that the Nicenes use the word.

I hope that clears it up. Please let me know if it doesn’t.

Ok, so it wasn't meant to be a rebuttal? All good.

I'm pretty ok at Biblical Greek. I don't speak it or anything, but I can read it at like a 2nd-grade level lol. And when I read the King James bible, I can usually tell what Greek words are hiding behind the English.

Ousia isn't an important word in the New Testament, but the related word Exousia (power) is.

 

[marks]

Thank you. If I’m not consistent then that would be an issue I would need to correct.

Not all consistency is good. The consistently evil man is not the better for his consistency.

Don't just tell me it's not play time. Stop playing games and then I'll know you think that. I'm not talking about whether you are right or I am right, I'm talking about that you routinely twist and misrepresent other people's words. I see that all the time in your posts, and it's dishonest. No, consistency is not always desireable.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And when I read the King James bible, I can usually tell what Greek words are hiding behind the English.

This is a primary reason I like the King James, they have a consistency (for the most part) in translating that I appreciate.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Not all consistency is good. The consistently evil man is not the better for his consistency.

You’re the one who is calling me evil. You’ll have to answer for it, but not to me.

Don't just tell me it's not play time. Stop playing games and then I'll know you think that. I'm not talking about whether you are right or I am right, I'm talking about that you routinely twist and misrepresent other people's words. I see that all the time in your posts, and it's dishonest. No, consistency is not always desireable.

Much love!

You continue to bear false witness against me.

 

[Matthias]

Yes

Have you picked up yet from what I’ve written that the answer from the perspective of Jewish monotheism is no?