Revelation 17, 12, 13 crowns/no crowns

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Douggg

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In Revelation 17, 12, 13, there are either crowns or no crowns on the heads and horns of the beast in each of those three chapters.

Revelation 17 - the status at the time of John first century. (heads, no crowns - horns, no crowns)
Revelation 12 - the status in the end times with 7 years left. (heads, crowns - horns, no crowns)
Revelation 13 - the status in the end times with 42 months left. (heads, no crowns - horns, crowns)

In the next three posts - I will provide a diagrams for each chapter.
 
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Davy

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In Revelation 17, 12, 13, there are either crowns or no crowns on the heads and horns of the beast in each of those three chapters.

Revelation 17 - the status at the time of John first century. (heads, no crowns - horns, no crowns)
Revelation 12 - the status in the end times with 7 years left. (heads, crowns - horns, no crowns)
Revelation 13 - the status in the end times with 42 months left. (heads, no crowns - horns, crowns)

In the next three posts - I will provide a diagrams for each chapter.

Not even close... to what those Revelation Scriptures point to.

The Revelation 12:3-4 beast structure of ten horns, seven heads, but ONLY seven crowns, is linked with the time when Lucifer drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth. Just when... was that? That happened when Lucifer first rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be GOD. And that was PRIOR to the time of Adam and Eve.

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but TEN crowns is not the same beast as that one in Revelation 12. The one of Revelation 13 is for the very 'end'... of this world, for the future time of "great tribulation", just prior to Lord Jesus' future return.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also about that beast of Revelation 13 that is for the END of this world. And both of those two Chapters cover the idea of a beast kingdom, and then a beast king. It will involve Satan's final attempt to setup a mimic of Christ's future literal Kingdom on earth.
 

Douggg

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Not even close... to what those Revelation Scriptures point to.

The Revelation 12:3-4 beast structure of ten horns, seven heads, but ONLY seven crowns, is linked with the time when Lucifer drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth. Just when... was that? That happened when Lucifer first rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be GOD. And that was PRIOR to the time of Adam and Eve.

The Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but TEN crowns is not the same beast as that one in Revelation 12. The one of Revelation 13 is for the very 'end'... of this world, for the future time of "great tribulation", just prior to Lord Jesus' future return.

The beast of Revelation 17 is also about that beast of Revelation 13 that is for the END of this world. And both of those two Chapters cover the idea of a beast kingdom, and then a beast king. It will involve Satan's final attempt to setup a mimic of Christ's future literal Kingdom on earth.
Davy, the crowns are on kings.

There are 7 heads representing 7 kings in the text.
in Revelation 17, no crowns
in Revelation 12, crowns
in Revelation 13, no crowns

There are 10 horns representing 10 kings in the text.

in Revelation 17, no crowns
in Revelation 12, no crowns
in Revelation 13, crowns
 

Davy

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Davy, the crowns are on kings.

No kidding! I just ain't smart enough to figure that out, me being from the South! Not!

The TEN HORNS also represent 10 KINGS (Daniel 7:24).

There are 7 heads representing 7 kings in the text.
in Revelation 17, no crowns
in Revelation 12, crowns
in Revelation 13, no crowns

There are 10 horns representing 10 kings in the text.
in Revelation 17, no crowns
in Revelation 12, no crowns
in Revelation 13, crowns

in Revelation 17, there are 10 KINGS ("ten horns"):
Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and
ten horns.
KJV

Rev 17:12
12 And
the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
KJV


In Revelation 12 there are "ten horns" representing ten kings:
Rev.12:3-4, but ONLY 7 "crowns". Got that figured out yet? No? Why are there TEN KINGS but ONLY SEVEN CROWNS there?


In Revelation 13, there are TEN CROWNS:
Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


You must have a different Bible than I do, or... you just are not following the Bible Scriptures as written, but are off on some false theory.
 

Douggg

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No kidding! I just ain't smart enough to figure that out, me being from the South! Not!

The TEN HORNS also represent 10 KINGS (Daniel 7:24).



in Revelation 17, there are 10 KINGS ("ten horns"):
Rev 17:3
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and
ten horns.
KJV

Rev 17:12
12 And
the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
KJV


In Revelation 12 there are "ten horns" representing ten kings:
Rev.12:3-4, but ONLY 7 "crowns". Got that figured out yet? No? Why are there TEN KINGS but ONLY SEVEN CROWNS there?


In Revelation 13, there are TEN CROWNS:
Rev 13:1
13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,
and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
KJV


You must have a different Bible than I do, or... you just are not following the Bible Scriptures as written, but are off on some false theory.
Davey, you seem to have forgotten in Revelation 17 there are also 7 sequential kings, i.e. king 1, then king 2, then king 3....... of which 5 had fallen at the time of John, one is ruling at John's time, and one king future.

Take a look at my post #2. In that post, I identify who those 7 sequential kings are.

-----------------------------------------------------

The ten kings, the ten horns, are ten end times kings - i.e. leaders of the EU. We are not able to identify who they are right now for certain. But it shouldn't be too long, before it is able to identify who they are. As well as, who the little horn person is.
 

Davy

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Davey, you seem to have forgotten in Revelation 17 there are also 7 sequential kings, i.e. king 1, then king 2, then king 3....... of which 5 had fallen at the time of John, one is ruling at John's time, and one king future.

Nah... I have not forgotten what is actually 'written' in the Revelation 17 chapter. Nothing wrong with my reading comprehension either. But some here don't have the help of The Holy Spirit to discern how it connects with other Bible Scripture.

So I'm going to spoil the Brethren in Christ that want... to know what Revelation 17 is actually teaching... line upon line....

Rev 17:1-7
17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of
the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

Those "many waters" represent the "sea" from which John saw the Revelation 13:1 beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns arise from. Later in this Rev.17 chapter John is shown those waters represent peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. That "great whore" is not manifest yet today. It is NOT the Catholic Church nor a pope, for that doctrine was of the old 16th century Reformers which thought their generation was the tribulation and thus expected Christ's 2nd coming. It did not happen. So for some reason, certain ones today in 'some' Churches carry on that old failed Reformer's doctrines against Rome and the pope.

(And my French ancestors fled 16th century France to the Americas, to escape Catholic persecution, because they were French Protestants, but I am not biased against the Roman Church, but nor do I partake of its doctrines.)

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw
a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

That symbolic "woman" is not Rome. Again, that belief is the old 16th century Reformer's doctrine that failed.

The final verse of this Rev.17 chapter reveals that symbolic "woman" to be a "great city", and the Revelation 11:8 verse reveals that "great city" as Jerusalem, where our Lord Jesus was crucified.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


One should immediately ask their self why BABYLON is used in this description of the symbolic woman. In Revelation 14:8, and Revelation 18:2, the phrase "Babylon is fallen, is fallen" from Isaiah 21:9 is repeated, word for word. The Isaiah 21 example was about the historical fall of the city of Babylon located in Iraq. Christ uses that idea here again for this symbolic "woman" for the end of this world during the future "great tribulation." It helps to understand some things about historical geographic ancient Babylon.

The area of Babylon, located in modern day Iraq today, was originally the ancient land of Sumer, a people who's first king was of Semitic origin (Sargon I). Sargon began the oldest known record of idol worship, and the Sumerians called Sargon the 'son of Bel', or 'son of the dragon'. That is where the Baal idol religion first started. Sargon was responsible for giving the ancient Sumerians knowledge of canal building and architecture, and sciences, from which the later Babylon empire sprang forth as one of the great wonders of the world. Sargon also built the first city in ancient Sumer. Sayce, a British Assyriologist, with his translation of some of the ancient Sumerian writings, originally go the date for Sargon showing up in Sumer at 3800 B.C. Some have linked Sargon, a Semite, appearing among the ancient Sumerians to have been Cain, which would make ancient Sumer the Biblical "land of Nod" where Cain took his wife from. That is where the most ancient cuneiform writings come from.

Some pastors believe Moses got the Genesis creation account from those ancient Babylonian cuneiform tablets simply because those stone tablets are older than the Pentateuch, and because those ancient Babylonian tablets infer... some of the events mentioned in Genesis 1. Instead I believe Cain probably was Sargon, and he brought a corrupted version of the Genesis 1 creation account to ancient Sumer. Sumer-Babylonia would later become the ancient Assyrian empire, and Babylon empire when Alexander the Great of Macedonia conquered it.

Ancient Babylon was the center and origin of the MYSTERY RELIGION, a system by its priests that controlled initiation into their occult 'mysteries'. That 'mystery school' tradition has continued today within many of the secret fraternities of initiation who claim a heritage from ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, and actually ancient Babylon. Baalism continued to those other countries, and even to pagan Rome and to most of Europe and Asia Minor when it was under paganism prior to The Gospel of Jesus Christ being preached to them.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


In Matthew 23:25-39, He pointed to the the families of the scribes and blind Pharisees that wanted Him killed so that, "... all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the righteous blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias...," would be upon them. In Luke 11:50, Jesus said "... the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" Jesus speaking about the scribes and Pharisees that wanted Him crucified. Jesus even called them "vipers" in Matthew 23.

Thus the above "woman" is pointing directly to Jerusalem in a state of false worship for the end of this world. With the above context of that word "generation", the idea of offspring is meant, not an era like the time of Christ's 1st coming. Jude 4 and other Scripture like it reveals a certain group of foreigners crept in among the children of Israel, and became those scribes and many of Israel's priests. (Ezra 2; 1 Chronicles 2:55)

7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee
the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns."
KJV


Now that kingdom beast of Revelation 13:1 is being tied with this symbolic "woman", and it is what carries her. That 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is about a system, or kingdom made up of all nations and peoples. And that symbolic "woman" represents a "great city", which is Jerusalem at the end of this world, which will be in a fallen worship state with the coming false-Messiah prophesied to come there at the end.

(Continued...)
 

Davy

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(Continued...)

Rev 17:8-18
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Revelation 9:11 reveals who that "beast" is that shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and eventually goes into perdition of the "lake of fire". It is Satan, the devil himself. Therefore, this Rev.17 chapter is covering subjects about both... beasts of Rev.13, the beast kingdom that comes up from the "sea", and the "another beast", a 2nd beast, that comes up from the "earth" (i.e., ascends out of the bottomless pit). It is important then to stay focused on which... beast is being spoken of here in Rev.17, because it can change back and forth between those two beasts.

The "beast" in the above 8th verse is the 2nd beast, the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 that comes up from the "earth". It is about the beast king. It is about that beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit, which is a direct reference to Satan.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Revelation 13:1 mentioned those "seven heads" as part of the kingdom beast that comes up out of the "sea". So now Rev.17 has switched to the subject of the kingdom beast idea. Those "seven heads" represent "seven mountains" on which the symbolic woman harlot sits upon, or actually over in power. They represent continents, basically the whole world, because the symbolic woman harlot will sit in power over all... nations and peoples. The symbolic "woman" represents a ruling city, the "great city", Jerusalem. That is where the coming false-Messiah is to reign from over all nations at the end of this world.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


Now the subject has changed to the idea of beast kings. For the end, the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11, the "another beast" is a certain person that will come and fool the whole world by the miracles he will do (see Rev.13:11 forward). That will be the coming false-Messiah/Antichrist to Jerusalem for the end (see Matthew 24:23-26 and 2 Thessalonians 2).

John says that 5 of those beast kings were already past history in his day, as they represent the kings of past pagan empires.

John then says the 6th beast king was in his day, around 96 A.D., which would have been Roman emperor Domitian, as per certain early Church fathers.

The 7th beast king, that "other is not yet come", is for the very end of this world, and is the "beast" described back at the 8th verse that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition, which is about Satan himself as this 7th beast king for the end of this present world.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


That phrase, "And the beast that was, and is not..." is a reference back to that above 8th verse of that one that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition. Again, that can only be about Satan himself, as he is the angel of the bottomless pit per Revelation 9:11.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


The "ten horns", mentioned back at Revelation 13:1 as part of the 1st beast, a beast kingdom, is about "ten kings". These ten kings have no power until they reign "one hour" with that beast king that ascends out of the bottomless pit. That "one hour" is a symbol for the future "great tribulation" time when the "dragon" of Rev.13:4-8 will have power to reign over all nations and peoples for 42 months.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


Those two above verses reveal those "ten kings" won't come to power until the very end of this world, for the tribulation. And they will be in power when Lord Jesus returns at His future 2nd coming. So those trying to preach these ten kings represent nations that exist right now, or of past history, and just throwing out false cannon fodder to get your money. They don't know what they are talking about, as they do not understand these Revelation Scriptures, so they just have to make up something else instead.

15 And he saith unto me, "The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."


Again, those "waters" the great whore woman harlot will sit upon for the end of this world represent those "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues," meaning the whole world. Since the symbolic "woman" is a "great city", it means it will rule... over the whole earth.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.


That symbolic "whore", the "woman" of this chapter, shows those ten kings will hate the "great city" (i.e., the "woman" harlot or "whore"). And they will make her desolate, meaning 'spiritually' desolate because of false IDOL worship of the "image of the beast" that will be setup there at that "great city". Lord Jesus warned us in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" IDOL in Jerusalem for the end of this world, and this is what that desolation is, a spiritual... desolation, not a desolation by literal destruction, but one caused by IDOL worship the beast will setup there in Jerusalem.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


Those ten kings will be deceived and fooled by Satan himself, "the beast" there, and give their kingdom to him at the end of this world. And our Heavenly God is going to allow this to happen. It is going to do a lot of pruning of the deceived who just give Him and His Son lip service, while also shaming the unbelievers.

18 And the
woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV


That verse is what, the 3rd time this Rev.17 chapter referred to the symbolic "woman" as that "great city" which will be the headquarters of the beast's future reign over all nations? Yes. And that will be the city of JERUSALEM.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt,
where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV
 

Douggg

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Davy, your last two posts appears to have been copied from some site.

You have drifted away from the topic of ...

Revelation 17, 12, 13 crowns/no crowns

Deal with the issue of the 7 kings and 10 kings, why they do or do not have crowns in each of those three chapters.
 
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