Don’t Be Fooled by the Glow: When Darkness Pretends to Be Light

[bdavidc]

Well said, but do you understand that only a converted believer has the ability to understand God's Word? An unconverted "babe" has no such ability.

Oh, I understand—it's just that I hold firmly to Scripture alone as the final authority. When ideas go beyond or add to what the Bible clearly teaches, they can lead us off course. For those who genuinely follow Christ, His Word must remain the foundation for truth and discernment.

There’s definitely truth in recognizing that we need the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God. Scripture teaches that spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14), and apart from the Spirit's work, no one can fully grasp the things of God. However, I want to gently clarify that Scripture doesn't support the idea of "unconverted believers." According to the New Testament, all true believers in Christ are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and have been converted (John 3:3, Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17). While believers may be at different stages of maturity—some still needing milk and others ready for solid food (Hebrews 5:12–14)—they are all part of God's family through faith in Jesus.

When Paul calls believers "saints" or says they are "called to be saints," he is not referring to unconverted people. Rather, he is addressing those who have already responded to the call of God by faith. The calling Paul speaks of is effectual—it results in salvation (Romans 8:30). Spiritual growth is a process, and we all begin as spiritual infants, but we are still counted as saved and secure in Christ from the moment we believe.

The idea that believers must receive two separate "rains" or stages of the Spirit to be truly converted doesn’t align with Scripture. When someone believes the gospel, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). There's no biblical distinction between an “Early Rain” that doesn’t convert and a “Latter Rain” that does. Growth in understanding comes over time through the Spirit’s work in sanctifying us, not through two separate experiences of conversion.

It’s true that the church is not perfect—there are false teachers and people who profess faith but don’t truly possess it (Matthew 7:21–23). But we also see throughout Scripture that Christ is building His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). We should be careful not to assume that most believers are blind or deceived just because we see differences or immaturity. God is faithful to complete the good work He begins in His people (Philippians 1:6).

Ultimately, yes, we all need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, and it’s only by His grace that we understand the deeper truths of God’s Word. But the moment a person trusts in Christ, they are fully justified and brought into the light, even if they are still learning to walk in it more clearly. Let’s encourage one another to grow in grace and knowledge—not by dividing believers into categories, but by pointing each other back to Christ and His Word.

 

[bdavidc]

The first type of believer is a person who has been called to be a saint (a babe). They are "many" in number and they are unconverted.

This is a false dichotomy. The Bible does not support the idea that there are "unconverted believers."

• A person who believes in Christ is regenerated, or born again (John 3:3, 2 Cor 5:17).
• If someone is not converted, they are not a believer in the biblical sense.
  

Calling unconverted people "believers" is theologically inconsistent with Scripture. All believers are converted, though they may be immature or still growing (1 Cor 3:1–2).

 

[bdavidc]

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints (unconverted babes): Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, (unconverted babes), with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints (converted Elect) which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful (unconverted babes) in Christ Jesus:

First of all the bible does not have the term (unconverted babes) in it.

The phrase “called to be saints” in the New Testament never means “unconverted”. Paul uses it to describe people who have already been justified and sanctified (Rom 1:7, 1 Cor 1:2).

• In biblical Greek, “called” (Greek: kletos) refers to the effectual call of God that brings a person to salvation.
• The idea that these people are unconverted is completely foreign to Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

This is very true but it does take both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit for a person to be able to receive "the profound truths and nourishing wisdom hidden within God’s Word".

I had been in the church for most of my life and thought that I had a correct understanding of Christ's New Covenant teachings - but after Christ gave me the Latter Rain of the Spirit, I realized I knew almost nothing. My conversion testimony is on my website (shown under my member name) if you care to read it.

The idea of needing both the “Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit” as some kind of two-stage spiritual awakening or requirement for understanding God’s Word is completely unfounded in Scripture. This interpretation is not only unbiblical—it’s dangerously misleading.

The concept of the "Early and Latter Rain" in the Bible, particularly in Deuteronomy 11:14 and Joel 2:23, is agricultural language used metaphorically to describe God’s provision and blessing, especially in the context of Israel’s land and harvest seasons. While Joel’s prophecy is echoed in Acts 2 during Pentecost as the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, the text never implies that there is a second, deeper “Latter Rain” required for someone to truly understand God's Word or enter into salvation. That is adding to the gospel, which Scripture strongly warns against (Galatians 1:6–9, Revelation 22:18–19).

The truth is, once someone is born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit fully—not in parts, not in stages (Ephesians 1:13–14, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 12:13). God’s Word becomes clear as the Spirit illuminates it for the believer, but that doesn’t require some mysterious or extra outpouring called the “Latter Rain.” That notion is based more on subjective experiences and spiritualized language than on the actual teaching of the Bible.

It’s important to test all things against Scripture and not let personal experiences override God’s revealed truth. Feelings and encounters can be deceptive, but God’s Word stands firm. Let’s be cautious not to dress mystical ideas in biblical language—it only leads people into confusion, not truth.

While personal transformation testimonies are valuable, implying that most other Christians are deceived and only a select few (like you) have been truly enlightened suggests a form of Gnosticism—the belief that salvation or true understanding comes through special hidden knowledge. This directly conflicts with: Jude 1:3 – the faith has been “once for all delivered to the saints.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17 – Scripture is sufficient for all believers, not just the “converted elect” with a second blessing.

 

[bdavidc]

Until Christ gives a person the Spirit of Truth, it is not possible for a person to know the truth. Everyone in this world is dependent upon Christ to heal their spiritual blindness. If He chooses not to heal their blindness, they will not be saved before they die.

Christ is the Savior and He alone does the work of mankind's salvation. To believe otherwise comes from the deceptions of the spirit of anti-Christ.

After reading your post, Joe, it comes across as though you believe you're the only one who truly knows God's truth. But when Scripture is twisted in a way that elevates oneself—even to the point of acting as though you can add to or redefine it—it reflects the very pride that led to Satan’s fall. That kind of attitude isn't from God; it puts self above His Word, and that's a dangerous path that opposes the spirit of Christ.

When the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the Bible to someone, He does so with clarity, humility, and consistency with the full counsel of God’s Word. He does not twist Scripture to elevate individuals or promote pride, for such distortion is not from God. Twisting Scripture to serve one’s own agenda, to appear spiritually superior, or to justify personal desires is a form of idolatry—it places self, status, or opinion above the authority of God. This is not merely a misinterpretation; it is a heart posture that rejects the Lordship of Christ and replaces it with human pride. Scripture warns that people can distort the Word to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16), showing that such misuse is spiritually dangerous. When someone manipulates God’s Word for self-glory, it is not the Holy Spirit leading them, but their own flesh or even deception. True revelation from God always produces fruit in keeping with the Spirit—humility, love, obedience, and reverence for God—not arrogance or control. The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, not man, and He never contradicts the character or truth of God revealed in Scripture.

So what has been state in many posts is for everyone who wants to know the truth, read and study the bible for yourselves so you are not fool by those that add strange teaching to it. You know kind of like the “anti-Christ” you mentioned would.

 

[bdavidc]

Dear amigo de christo,
If it is that simple, why are there around 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world - all who belief and teach their own version of the truth?
Joe

Because Satan is hard at work twisting the scripture and making it hard for true believers to find a real place of worship that actually teaches the truths from the bible. Sola Scriptura

 

[FaithWillDo]

Oh, I understand—it's just that I hold firmly to Scripture alone as the final authority. When ideas go beyond or add to what the Bible clearly teaches, they can lead us off course. For those who genuinely follow Christ, His Word must remain the foundation for truth and discernment.

There’s definitely truth in recognizing that we need the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God. Scripture teaches that spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14), and apart from the Spirit's work, no one can fully grasp the things of God. However, I want to gently clarify that Scripture doesn't support the idea of "unconverted believers." According to the New Testament, all true believers in Christ are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and have been converted (John 3:3, Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17). While believers may be at different stages of maturity—some still needing milk and others ready for solid food (Hebrews 5:12–14)—they are all part of God's family through faith in Jesus.

When Paul calls believers "saints" or says they are "called to be saints," he is not referring to unconverted people. Rather, he is addressing those who have already responded to the call of God by faith. The calling Paul speaks of is effectual—it results in salvation (Romans 8:30). Spiritual growth is a process, and we all begin as spiritual infants, but we are still counted as saved and secure in Christ from the moment we believe.

The idea that believers must receive two separate "rains" or stages of the Spirit to be truly converted doesn’t align with Scripture. When someone believes the gospel, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). There's no biblical distinction between an “Early Rain” that doesn’t convert and a “Latter Rain” that does. Growth in understanding comes over time through the Spirit’s work in sanctifying us, not through two separate experiences of conversion.

It’s true that the church is not perfect—there are false teachers and people who profess faith but don’t truly possess it (Matthew 7:21–23). But we also see throughout Scripture that Christ is building His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). We should be careful not to assume that most believers are blind or deceived just because we see differences or immaturity. God is faithful to complete the good work He begins in His people (Philippians 1:6).

Ultimately, yes, we all need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, and it’s only by His grace that we understand the deeper truths of God’s Word. But the moment a person trusts in Christ, they are fully justified and brought into the light, even if they are still learning to walk in it more clearly. Let’s encourage one another to grow in grace and knowledge—not by dividing believers into categories, but by pointing each other back to Christ and His Word.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Oh, I understand—it's just that I hold firmly to Scripture alone as the final authority. When ideas go beyond or add to what the Bible clearly teaches, they can lead us off course. For those who genuinely follow Christ, His Word must remain the foundation for truth and discernment.

There’s definitely truth in recognizing that we need the Holy Spirit to understand the Word of God. Scripture teaches that spiritual things are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14), and apart from the Spirit's work, no one can fully grasp the things of God. However, I want to gently clarify that Scripture doesn't support the idea of "unconverted believers." According to the New Testament, all true believers in Christ are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and have been converted (John 3:3, Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17). While believers may be at different stages of maturity—some still needing milk and others ready for solid food (Hebrews 5:12–14)—they are all part of God's family through faith in Jesus.

When Paul calls believers "saints" or says they are "called to be saints," he is not referring to unconverted people. Rather, he is addressing those who have already responded to the call of God by faith. The calling Paul speaks of is effectual—it results in salvation (Romans 8:30). Spiritual growth is a process, and we all begin as spiritual infants, but we are still counted as saved and secure in Christ from the moment we believe.

The idea that believers must receive two separate "rains" or stages of the Spirit to be truly converted doesn’t align with Scripture. When someone believes the gospel, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). There's no biblical distinction between an “Early Rain” that doesn’t convert and a “Latter Rain” that does. Growth in understanding comes over time through the Spirit’s work in sanctifying us, not through two separate experiences of conversion.

It’s true that the church is not perfect—there are false teachers and people who profess faith but don’t truly possess it (Matthew 7:21–23). But we also see throughout Scripture that Christ is building His church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). We should be careful not to assume that most believers are blind or deceived just because we see differences or immaturity. God is faithful to complete the good work He begins in His people (Philippians 1:6).

Ultimately, yes, we all need the Holy Spirit to open our eyes, and it’s only by His grace that we understand the deeper truths of God’s Word. But the moment a person trusts in Christ, they are fully justified and brought into the light, even if they are still learning to walk in it more clearly. Let’s encourage one another to grow in grace and knowledge—not by dividing believers into categories, but by pointing each other back to Christ and His Word.

Dear bdavidc,
You said:
I want to gently clarify that Scripture doesn't support the idea of "unconverted believers." According to the New Testament, all true believers in Christ are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and have been converted (John 3:3, Romans 8:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17). While believers may be at different stages of maturity—some still needing milk and others ready for solid food (Hebrews 5:12–14)—they are all part of God's family through faith in Jesus.

Do you believe that the Apostles were converted when they made their confession of faith when they walked with Christ or when they received the Latter Rain of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost?

The Apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit (this is not the baptism) when they walked with Christ. Because they did, they made a confession of faith and called Jesus "Lord".

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 nd Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (blessed because he was given the Early Rain).

If Peter and the others had not been given the Early Rain, they could not have recognized who Jesus was, nor could they have called Him "Lord". At that point, they were "babes" and could not understand the spiritual teachings of Christ. They needed to Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) to come so that their spiritual blindness would be healed.

The churches of the world are full of believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain gave them a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts but they remained spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. Because their house remains empty of the truth of Christ, Satan will come to them and deceive them via the spirit of anti-Christ. Since the death of Paul, no "babe" has avoided becoming apostate. It is a step along the pathway that Christ causes His Elect to follow.

Consider these scriptures:

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he (Christ) shall come unto us as the Rain, as the Latter and Early Rain unto the earth.

After a person is called to be a saint, Satan will cause them to fall away because his deceptions which will cause the person to mix their own works with faith. This is the sin that leads to death. All babes since the end of the 1st century have or will commit this sin. Because the Elect babes are no exception, they will also become apostate.

Here are a few supporting verses:

Psa 72:6 He shall come down like RAIN (Latter Rain) upon the mown grass (represents a fallen away believer): as showers (Latter Rain) that water the earth.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withheld, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of salvation/conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate/man of sin), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary. (in an apostate condition)

You said:
But the moment a person trusts in Christ, they are fully justified and brought into the light, even if they are still learning to walk in it more clearly.

The moment a person trusts in Christ is the result of Christ preparing their heart with the Early Rain.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Without the small measure of the Spirit, no person can have any faith in Christ or call Him "Lord". When Christ gives a person the small measure of the Spirit, they will be "called to be a saint" and will be justified as long as they remain faithful. But due to Satan's deceptions via the spirit of anti-Christ, no babe will remain faithful while they wait on the Lord to return.

For believers who have been called but not chosen to become a saint (they are "many"), they will die in their sins because Christ did not return to them with the Latter Rain. Only the "few" who are chosen from the foundation of the world does Christ return to before they die. When He comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain and restore them (make them faithful). Since their spiritual blindness is healed at that time, they will then "see" the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (God's temple).

Mat 24:15 When (not if) ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

There is much more that I could present but that enough for one post.

Joe

 

[bdavidc]

There is much more that I could present but that enough for one post.

Your teaching contains several serious doctrinal errors when examined in light of Scripture. While it uses biblical language and verses, the underlying message departs from sound biblical truth on key points related to salvation, the work of the Holy Spirit, and assurance.

The most concerning false teaching you have here is the claim that believers who have trusted in Christ, received the Spirit, and been justified can still be unconverted, spiritually blind, and ultimately apostate unless they later receive a second, separate outpouring of the “Latter Rain.” Scripture teaches the opposite. According to the New Testament, the moment a person genuinely believes in Christ, they are born again, justified, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3–8; Romans 5:1; Ephesians 1:13–14). There is no biblical basis for dividing the work of the Spirit into "Early Rain" and "Latter Rain" in a way that makes initial salvation incomplete or insufficient. Romans 8:9 clearly states that “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him,” implying that every true believer has the Spirit from the moment of conversion.

Additionally, the assertion that “no babe” in Christ since the first century has avoided apostasy is entirely contrary to Scripture. It denies the preserving grace of God and contradicts passages like Philippians 1:6, which says, “He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ,” and Jude 24, which affirms that God is able “to keep you from stumbling.” While spiritual growth is necessary, and believers are called to persevere, true believers are not abandoned to inevitable apostasy. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice... I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27–28).

The teaching also distorts Matthew 24:15 by applying it inwardly to an individual’s spiritual condition, rather than interpreting it as Jesus intended—in its eschatological and prophetic context. The same misuse happens with other verses, like those from Hosea and Psalms, where poetic or prophetic imagery is lifted out of context to build a framework not supported by the New Testament gospel.

In short, this teaching undermines the sufficiency of Christ’s finished work and the completeness of the new birth. It shifts the foundation of salvation away from faith in Christ alone and introduces a hidden “second blessing” necessary for final conversion, which is not taught anywhere in Scripture. This is a false teaching and should be rejected in light of the clear gospel presented throughout the New Testament.

Don’t bother trying to sell me this false teaching. I can read the Bible for myself, and what you’re pushing isn’t in it. It’s false teaching, plain and simple. Stop posting this nonsense on my thread.

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is a false dichotomy. The Bible does not support the idea that there are "unconverted believers."

• A person who believes in Christ is regenerated, or born again (John 3:3, 2 Cor 5:17).
• If someone is not converted, they are not a believer in the biblical sense.

Calling unconverted people "believers" is theologically inconsistent with Scripture. All believers are converted, though they may be immature or still growing (1 Cor 3:1–2).

Dear bdavidc,
A person becomes a babe in Christ when they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit but it does not convert them.

Peter was a believer and was justified by his faith when he walked with Christ but he was not converted until the Day of Pentecost:

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Conversion requires the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by the Day of the Lord (judgment). Judgment is necessary for conversion because it destroys the child of the Devil within the person.

When a person receives the Early Rain, they are not judged at that time. As a result, a spiritual war will develop within themselves. Satan will then come to the babe and indwell them with the spirit of anti-Christ. After this happens, the child of God is spiritually slain in Old Jerusalem/Great Harlot. As a result, the believer will become "worse than the first"; a man of sin. The churches of the world are full of this type of believer.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

First of all the bible does not have the term (unconverted babes) in it.

The phrase “called to be saints” in the New Testament never means “unconverted”. Paul uses it to describe people who have already been justified and sanctified (Rom 1:7, 1 Cor 1:2).

• In biblical Greek, “called” (Greek: kletos) refers to the effectual call of God that brings a person to salvation.
• The idea that these people are unconverted is completely foreign to Scripture.

Dear bdavidc,
Yes, the faith of babes will justify and sanctified them but they are not converted. If they were converted, they would never be deceived by Satan and fall from grace.

After a believer is converted, their salvation is secure.

Joe

 

[bdavidc]

Dear bdavidc,
A person become a babe in Christ when they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit but it does not convert them.

Peter was a believer and was justified by his faith when he walked with Christ but he was not converted until the Day of Pentecost:

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Conversion requires the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit, followed by the Day of the Lord (judgment). Judgment is necessary for conversion because it destroys the child of the Devil within the person.

When a person receives the Early Rain, they are not judged at that time. As a result, a spiritual war will develop within themselves. Satan will then come to the babe and indwell them with the spirit of anti-Christ. After this happens, the child of God is spiritually slain in Old Jerusalem/Great Harlot. As a result, the believer will become "worse than the first"; a man of sin. The churches of the world are full of this type of believer.

Joe

Dear bdavidc,
Yes, the faith of babes will justify and sanctified them but they are not converted. If they were, converted, they would never be deceived by Satan and fall from grace.

After a believer is converted, their salvation is secure.

Joe

Stop with your false doctrine and attempts to deceive people. If you keep posting on my thread, you’ll continue to be exposed as the false teacher you are. You’re proof that my point is true—false teachers are everywhere. Everyone, study your Bibles so smooth-talking deceivers like this one don’t fool you.

 

[bdavidc]

Dear bdavidc,

Stop with your false doctrine and attempts to deceive people. If you keep posting on my thread, you’ll continue to be exposed as the false teacher you are. You’re proof that my point is true—false teachers are everywhere. Everyone, study your Bibles so smooth-talking deceivers like this one don’t fool you.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The idea of needing both the “Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit” as some kind of two-stage spiritual awakening or requirement for understanding God’s Word is completely unfounded in Scripture. This interpretation is not only unbiblical—it’s dangerously misleading.

The concept of the "Early and Latter Rain" in the Bible, particularly in Deuteronomy 11:14 and Joel 2:23, is agricultural language used metaphorically to describe God’s provision and blessing, especially in the context of Israel’s land and harvest seasons. While Joel’s prophecy is echoed in Acts 2 during Pentecost as the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, the text never implies that there is a second, deeper “Latter Rain” required for someone to truly understand God's Word or enter into salvation. That is adding to the gospel, which Scripture strongly warns against (Galatians 1:6–9, Revelation 22:18–19).

The truth is, once someone is born again through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ, they receive the Holy Spirit fully—not in parts, not in stages (Ephesians 1:13–14, Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 12:13). God’s Word becomes clear as the Spirit illuminates it for the believer, but that doesn’t require some mysterious or extra outpouring called the “Latter Rain.” That notion is based more on subjective experiences and spiritualized language than on the actual teaching of the Bible.

It’s important to test all things against Scripture and not let personal experiences override God’s revealed truth. Feelings and encounters can be deceptive, but God’s Word stands firm. Let’s be cautious not to dress mystical ideas in biblical language—it only leads people into confusion, not truth.

While personal transformation testimonies are valuable, implying that most other Christians are deceived and only a select few (like you) have been truly enlightened suggests a form of Gnosticism—the belief that salvation or true understanding comes through special hidden knowledge. This directly conflicts with: Jude 1:3 – the faith has been “once for all delivered to the saints.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17 – Scripture is sufficient for all believers, not just the “converted elect” with a second blessing.

Dear bdavidc,
You said:
The idea of needing both the “Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit” as some kind of two-stage spiritual awakening or requirement for understanding God’s Word is completely unfounded in Scripture. This interpretation is not only unbiblical—it’s dangerously misleading.

The concept of the Early and Latter Rains is a part of the great mystery of Christ. It is concealed from apostate believers.

Consider what James said:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

In this analogy, Christ is the farmer. The Precious Fruit of the earth is the wheat which represents the Elect. The farmer has “long patience” for the harvest because all new believers (babes) will become apostate shortly after they are given the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (worsened carnal mind of an apostate believer), thou refused to be ashamed.

The time period in between an Elect person receiving the Early and Latter Rains is what requires Christ to have “long patience” for the harvest to arrive. It is the same time period of waiting that Paul mentions in the verse below - however, in this verse, it is referred to as the “longsuffering” of Christ:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause, I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern (type) to them (the Elect) which should hereafter believe on him to life during the ages.

Elijah’s 3 ½ years of drought is also a “type” which represents the time an Elect person spends in between receiving the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit.

James mentions Elijah’s 3 ½ years of drought a few verses later in chapter 5:

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months. 18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave Rain (the Latter Rain), and the earth produced its fruit (Wheat/the converted Elect).

In the marriage analogy used to teach the pathway to salvation, when a unbeliever is given the Early Rain, they become a chaste virgin and are engaged to Christ. Christ then leaves with the promise to return to collect his virgin later. Just before Christ returns, the Elect are given the Latter Rain which will make them faithful again. This is symbolized by the extra flask of oil the Wise Virgins carry in the Parable of the Ten Virgins. When Christ appears, He finds them acceptable (faithful) and the marriage takes place. It is at this time a believer is born again. Judgment will follow the marriage supper where Christ feeds His bride bread and New Wine. After the supper, judgment begins. This judgment is shown in Rev 19-11-21. After this judgment is complete, the believer is converted. This entire process of conversion is called the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5). It is a spiritual resurrection and not the bodily resurrection that will come later.

Also, look at the story of the woman taken in adultery. The woman represent an Elect person. When Christ writes in the earth the first time, it represents Him giving the woman the Early Rain (writing His law in her heart). After He does, the Pharisees (who represent the law) still accuse the woman. Christ then writes in the earth a second time (Latter Rain). After He does, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The law can no longer accuse the woman. Salvation requires both the Early and Latter Rain.

Finally, it is God's Word which says that all new believers (babes) will become apostate after they have been called to be a saint. It is a step along the pathway to salvation. Since Christ directs a person's steps, they have no free will ability to deviate from the pathway.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, it is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

After reading your post, Joe, it comes across as though you believe you're the only one who truly knows God's truth. But when Scripture is twisted in a way that elevates oneself—even to the point of acting as though you can add to or redefine it—it reflects the very pride that led to Satan’s fall. That kind of attitude isn't from God; it puts self above His Word, and that's a dangerous path that opposes the spirit of Christ.

When the Holy Spirit reveals the truth of the Bible to someone, He does so with clarity, humility, and consistency with the full counsel of God’s Word. He does not twist Scripture to elevate individuals or promote pride, for such distortion is not from God. Twisting Scripture to serve one’s own agenda, to appear spiritually superior, or to justify personal desires is a form of idolatry—it places self, status, or opinion above the authority of God. This is not merely a misinterpretation; it is a heart posture that rejects the Lordship of Christ and replaces it with human pride. Scripture warns that people can distort the Word to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:16), showing that such misuse is spiritually dangerous. When someone manipulates God’s Word for self-glory, it is not the Holy Spirit leading them, but their own flesh or even deception. True revelation from God always produces fruit in keeping with the Spirit—humility, love, obedience, and reverence for God—not arrogance or control. The Holy Spirit glorifies Christ, not man, and He never contradicts the character or truth of God revealed in Scripture.

So what has been state in many posts is for everyone who wants to know the truth, read and study the bible for yourselves so you are not fool by those that add strange teaching to it. You know kind of like the “anti-Christ” you mentioned would.

Dear bdavidc,
You said:
After reading your post, Joe, it comes across as though you believe you're the only one who truly knows God's truth.

No, I know others online who have been converted and believe as I do - however, you will not find any of them in the churches of this world.

Like me, after a person is converted, they will no longer fellowship with darkness.

While a person is deceived, they cannot know it. That is the nature of deception. A person can only know that they have been deceived after Christ opens their eyes with the Latter Rain. You are underestimating the power of Satan's deceptions.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Because Satan is hard at work twisting the scripture and making it hard for true believers to find a real place of worship that actually teaches the truths from the bible. Sola Scriptura

Dear bdavidc,
Carnal mankind cannot understand and receive the truth of Christ. The Early Rain of the Spirit will give a person a measure of faith, but it will not heal their spiritual blindness or destroy their carnal mind. Because of this, a babe will prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

When a babe returns to consuming the Old Wine (Old Covenant which is based on the works of man and not Christ), it will bite them like a serpent and cause them to fall from grace.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

Satan's "another gospel" mixes the Old Wine of man's works with the New Wine of Christ's works. After a babe has accepted Satan's false gospel, they have committed the one and only sin that leads to death. Why? Because they have spiritually fornicated with Satan (following Satan's ways instead of the ways of Christ) and have become unfaithful.

Joe

 

[bdavidc]

Dear bdavidc,
You said:
After reading your post, Joe, it comes across as though you believe you're the only one who truly knows God's truth.

No, I know others online who have been converted and believe as I do - however, you will not find any of them in the churches of this world.

Like me, after a person is converted, they will no longer fellowship with darkness.

While a person is deceived, they cannot know it. That is the nature of deception. A person can only know that they have been deceived after Christ opens their eyes with the Latter Rain. You are underestimating the power of Satan's deceptions.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Joe

Some people may believe your false teachings, but that doesn’t make them true. The only truth is found in the Bible. I trust that if God wants people to know the truth, He will lead them to His true Word—not to you.

Once again, stop spreading your false doctrine and trying to deceive people. If you keep posting on my thread, you’ll continue to be exposed for the false teacher you are. You’re living proof of what I’ve been saying—false teachers are everywhere.

To everyone reading this: study your Bibles so that smooth-talking deceivers like this one don’t mislead you.

 

[Ritajanice]

. The only truth is found in the Bible

The truth was delivered to my heart/ spirit....when it became Born Of The Spirit.....no Bible in sight.

Yes...as we can see...quite a few believe very differently to you or I...

Personally I don’t think he should be shoving down your throat what he believes...God wouldn’t do that...I’ve got him on ignore ....as I haven’t a clue what this early rain or latter rain means....I just know by Gods Living testimony, that my spirit is Born Again....which came by supernatural divine heart revelation...Spirit gives birth to spirit.

 

[bdavidc]

Dear bdavidc,
Carnal mankind cannot understand and receive the truth of Christ. The Early Rain of the Spirit will give a person a measure of faith, but it will not heal their spiritual blindness or destroy their carnal mind. Because of this, a babe will prefer the Old Wine over the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

When a babe returns to consuming the Old Wine (Old Covenant which is based on the works of man and not Christ), it will bite them like a serpent and cause them to fall from grace.

Prov 23:26 My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways. 27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increases the transgressors among men. 29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red (Old Wine), when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moves itself (man’s works) aright. 32 At the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder.

Satan's "another gospel" mixes the Old Wine of man's works with the New Wine of Christ's works. After a babe has accepted Satan's false gospel, they have committed the one and only sin that leads to death. Why? Because they have spiritually fornicated with Satan (following Satan's ways instead of the ways of Christ) and have become unfaithful.

Joe

Your interpretation of the "early rain of the Spirit" and the use of wine symbolism is deeply flawed and not grounded in sound biblical teaching. Twisting Scripture to support a false narrative is exactly what the Bible warns us about, and it won’t work on someone who knows the Word of God. The Holy Spirit, including the early rain, is not given in partial truth or half-measures—it is the power of God unto salvation, guiding believers into all truth (John 16:13). Nowhere in Scripture does it say that the “early rain” gives faith but leaves a person spiritually blind or carnal. That’s your interpretation—not the Bible’s teaching.

You’ve taken Luke 5:39 completely out of context. Jesus is explaining how people often resist the newness of the gospel, preferring tradition or the old system—but He’s not calling the Old Covenant a serpent or saying it leads to spiritual death. In fact, the Old Covenant was God's covenant with Israel, pointing forward to Christ (Galatians 3:24). It was never man’s works that saved anyone, not even under the Old Covenant. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, even in the Old Testament (see Romans 4 regarding Abraham’s faith).

Proverbs 23 is a warning about literal drunkenness and the seduction of sin—not a prophetic allegory about mixing covenants or "spiritual fornication with Satan." You're reading something into the text that simply isn't there. This kind of allegorizing without proper context or biblical backing is how false doctrines are born.

As for your claim that someone who accepts a “mixed gospel” has committed the "one and only sin that leads to death"—that is a serious error. The unpardonable sin, according to Jesus in Mark 3:29, is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, not doctrinal confusion or being misled. Be very careful with accusations that have no scriptural foundation.

The Bible is clear: we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by mixing anything—not works, not law, not mysticism. But we also do not invent meanings for symbols in Scripture that aren't clearly explained by the Word itself. If your teaching cannot stand under the light of Scripture rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15), then it should be rejected. I stand on the truth of the Bible—not man’s twisted interpretations.

Once again, stop spreading your false doctrine and trying to deceive people. If you keep posting on my thread, you’ll continue to be exposed for the false teacher you are. You’re living proof of what I’ve been saying—false teachers are everywhere.

 

[Ritajanice]

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◄ Romans 8 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Walking by the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.