Did Jesus inherit sinful flesh nature?

[Hobie]

Greetings again Don Clarkston,

I reject your assessment. We can have the lusts and not sin if the lust does not conceive in our heart James 1:13-15.

I am one of the two librarians for our meeting, but have a much larger personal library, both print and electronic. I enjoy the many and varied expositions and reference books, all contributing to a better understanding of the Truth of God's Word. I used to enjoy going to second hand book sales and bookshops. My Dad was a Salesman Distributor for Collins books. He specialised in School libraries. Do you have many reference books? or do you rely upon the Holy Spirit within?

I consider that Jesus was speaking about the Holy Spirit gifts that the Apostles were soon to receive and this included prophecy. I consider that these gifts are not possessed by believers today.

Kind regards
Trevor

Oh no my brother, I have to stop you right there. We can have temptation and as long as we resist, then there is no sin. But lusts, read what Christ said:

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And we see what else Gods Word has on this..

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[JBO]

There doesn’t have to be a “sin gene.”
But that doesn’t negate Paul’s statement at Romans 5:12 …
“That is why, through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.”

Which agrees with 1 Corinthians 15:22….
“For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”

Take care, my cousin.

Why do so many fail to understand that Romans 5:12 says that the reason death spread to all men is because they all sinned? The only thing attributed to Adam is that he was the first; it was through him that sinned entered the world. It does not say that sinned spread to all men because Adam sinned.

You have tried to somehow tie together Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. . Clearly 1 Corinthians is talking about physical death and the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns; Romans 5:12 is talking about dying spiritually, not physically. Physical death is a natural part of the creation. We know that because even though one who has been forgiven of all sin, and made alive (spiritually) dies physically. Therefore, even though one is in Christ and has received eternal life, one dies physically.

 

[JBO]

I never said Jesus gave in to the lusts of the flesh... I'm saying Jesus never accept the lusts of the flesh meaning he never had them in the first place.

If that were actually true, are you saying that Satan didn't know that? Was he really that stupid? I don't think so. We all are able to choose not to sin and most do that most of the time. It is just that no one except Jesus has ever done that perfectly. Lusts of the flesh is inherent in the flesh. It is integral to being human.

 

[Hobie]

If that were actually true, are you saying that Satan didn't know that? Was he really that stupid? I don't think so. We all are able to choose not to sin and most do that most of the time. It is just that no one except Jesus has ever done that perfectly. Lusts of the flesh is inherent in the flesh. It is integral to being human.

If that was so, then Christ would have been 'lustful', and that certainly wasn't the case..

 

[JBO]

If that was so, then Christ would have been 'lustful', and that certainly wasn't the case..

So then, you do think that Satan was ignorant of the very thing that you think you know. Interesting.

Another question. How you could be tempted in something that you have absolutely no interest?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Why do so many fail to understand that Romans 5:12 says that the reason death spread to all men is because they all sinned? The only thing attributed to Adam is that he was the first; it was through him that sinned entered the world. It does not say that sinned spread to all men because Adam sinned.

1 Cor 15:20-22…
”But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (ESV)

Was death ever mentioned to Adam except as a punishment for disobedience?
Without sin, there was no death…..Christ came to sacrifice his life for the one Adam lost for all of us.

From your perspective, the “ransom” or the “redemption price” paid by Christ’s death, makes no sense.
This scripture does not say that the death is spiritual…it is physical, like Christ’s….if Adam had never disobeyed, then access to “the tree of life“ would never have been denied to him and his offspring….it would have meant everlasting life right here on earth, where God put us in the first place.

Evicting the first humans from their garden paradise to the cursed ground outside, would mean that physical death was inevitable because there was now a separation of the humans from their Creator. Not only that but sin and evil were now in the human psyche, which means that if the humans did not know sin and evil, then they could never commit it.

Isn’t that what God intended when he made man without a knowledge of good and evil? Humans were to depend on God to determine what was good and what was bad. So what Adam stole from the human race was the very thing that God had wanted to keep to himself.…and as we have seen, with the depth of evil in the world….it was for a very good reason. So many humans do not know the difference.

Romans 5:12 is talking about dying spiritually, not physically. Physical death is a natural part of the creation. We know that because even though one who has been forgiven of all sin, and made alive (spiritually) dies physically. Therefore, even though one is in Christ and has received eternal life, one dies physically.

Physical death was never a natural part of creation……who told you that? Find one statement from God where he told Adam that would die, other than eating the fruit that God claimed as his own property.

Death can occur both spiritually and physically, but in the garden, spiritual death came as a result of Adam’s actions, his choice to disobey, even though he knew the penalty….physical death followed because access to the only thing that would maintain mortal life on earth indefinitely, was denied…..for the rest of human history, until the sacrifice that Jesus made for us is applied at his return.

Only with the institution of his Kingdom, ruling over redeemed mankind will God’s first purpose for the human race be reinstated….and everlasting life on earth be restored. The detour we had to take was a learning curve for all of God’s free willed children.…because the first rebel was not human.

We all are able to choose not to sin and most do that most of the time. It is just that no one except Jesus has ever done that perfectly. Lusts of the flesh is inherent in the flesh. It is integral to being human.

The Bible disagrees with you…we all sin because of the inborn tendency to make bad decisions, often dictated by our fallen flesh….the one Paul described in Rom 7:18-23.

But 1 John 5:18 makes a distinction…..
”We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.“ (ESV)

What is this really telling us? Those who come to Christ desire to repent of past mistakes and accept a new way of life which requires a new way of thinking. All actions are preceded by thoughts….so a determination is made not to “keep sinning” but to ask for God’s help through Jesus Christ, to keep us FROM sinning as best we can in our imperfect flesh. Help is a prayer away.

How you could be tempted in something that you have absolutely no interest?

Exactly….without the desire, there is no temptation…like trying to tempt a child with broccoli instead of candy.
What did the devil tempt Jesus with….? Self interest….the very opposite of what Jesus taught…to put love of God and neighbor before your own self interest.
So much “giving” in the world is fake….done only to make oneself look good….or out of a sense of duty, not love.

 

[TheHC]

Why do so many fail to understand that Romans 5:12 says that the reason death spread to all men is because they all sinned? The only thing attributed to Adam is that he was the first; it was through him that sinned entered the world. It does not say that sinned spread to all men because Adam sinned.

You have tried to somehow tie together Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. . Clearly 1 Corinthians is talking about physical death and the resurrection at the end of the age when Christ returns; Romans 5:12 is talking about dying spiritually, not physically. Physical death is a natural part of the creation. We know that because even though one who has been forgiven of all sin, and made alive (spiritually) dies physically. Therefore, even though one is in Christ and has received eternal life, one dies physically.

Well then, I guess you really miss the import - the value - of what these verses explain to us, my cousin.

Since Genesis 3:20 tells us Eve became “the mother of everyone living”, that means by necessity Adam became the father of the human race.

He “passed on” his imperfection That’s why at Romans 5:12, Paul specifically added “οὕτως” (houtōs)
Adverb
Strong's 3779: Thus, so, in this manner. Or (referring to what precedes or follows).

As the NLT puts it….
“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

“Spread” is actually a term used in the population genetics & biohealth fields.

Adam was a “son of God” (Luke 3:38) As such, his quality of life far exceeded that of any of the animals. It started out that way….

Through Jesus, God has put in place the means through which all of mankind can be redeemed.
Which includes restoring everlasting life to obedient / humble mankind. -Romans 6:23

 

[JBO]

1 Cor 15:20-22…
”But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.” (ESV)

Was death ever mentioned to Adam except as a punishment for disobedience?
Without sin, there was no death…..Christ came to sacrifice his life for the one Adam lost for all of us.

The death that came from Adam's disobedience was his own spiritual death. His physical death came from being ejected from the garden and no longer having access to the fruit of the tree of life.

From your perspective, the “ransom” or the “redemption price” paid by Christ’s death, makes no sense.
This scripture does not say that the death is spiritual…it is physical, like Christ’s….if Adam had never disobeyed, then access to “the tree of life“ would never have been denied to him and his offspring….it would have meant everlasting life right here on earth, where God put us in the first place.

Everlasting life is not immortality. The fruit of the tree of life provided the preventative to physical death. If physical death was not an integral part of creation, there would have been no reason for the tree of life.

Evicting the first humans from their garden paradise to the cursed ground outside, would mean that physical death was inevitable because there was now a separation of the humans from their Creator. Not only that but sin and evil were now in the human psyche, which means that if the humans did not know sin and evil, then they could never commit it.

Evicting the first humans from their garden paradise to the cursed ground outside, would mean that physical death was inevitable because they no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life. If sin and evil were not in Adam's psyche then he wouldn't have disobeyed to begin with. If sin and evil in the human psyche was not intrinsic in the creation of Adam and Eve, then why did they disobey?

Isn’t that what God intended when he made man without a knowledge of good and evil?

Are you suggesting that they didn't know that disobeying God was wrong? I think that the knowing of good and evil is a more complicated feature than simply knowing right from wrong. If knowing good and evil is "like one of us", that is like God, then how is that a bad thing?

Humans were to depend on God to determine what was good and what was bad.

That hasn't changed. God is still the only determining factor for what is good and what is bad.

So what Adam stole from the human race was the very thing that God had wanted to keep to himself.…and as we have seen, with the depth of evil in the world….it was for a very good reason. So many humans do not know the difference.

Adam and Eve obviously knew that they should obey God. God didn't keep that from them. A lot of humans do not have access to the detail of God's law, but they all know something about good and evil, what is right and what is wrong. All humans have a "law" that they live by. Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

Physical death was never a natural part of creation……who told you that?

Of course, physical death was a natural part of creation; if it wasn't, there would have been no reason for the tree of life in the Garden to begin with.

Death can occur both spiritually and physically, but in the garden, spiritual death came as a result of Adam’s actions, his choice to disobey, even though he knew the penalty….physical death followed because access to the only thing that would maintain mortal life on earth indefinitely, was denied…..for the rest of human history, until the sacrifice that Jesus made for us is applied at his return.

First you argue that there was no such thing as physical death originally, then you argue that the thing that would maintain mortal indefinitely was denied. So which is it. And the sacrifice that Jesus made for us has not prevented physical death for anyone. Everyone dies.

Only with the institution of his Kingdom, ruling over redeemed mankind will God’s first purpose for the human race be reinstated….and everlasting life on earth be restored. The detour we had to take was a learning curve for all of God’s free willed children.…because the first rebel was not human.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the hereafter except to note that in 1 Corinthians 15:44, Paul tells us that the resurrection body will not be a physical body; rather, it will be a spiritual body.

The Bible disagrees with you…we all sin because of the inborn tendency to make bad decisions, often dictated by our fallen flesh….the one Paul described in Rom 7:18-23.

Yes, but that inborn tendency was in fact part and parcel to the creation. Adam obviously made a bad decision. He was created with that capability. Nothing Adam did made any difference in God's creation.

But 1 John 5:18 makes a distinction…..
”We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.“ (ESV)

What is this really telling us? Those who come to Christ desire to repent of past mistakes and accept a new way of life which requires a new way of thinking. All actions are preceded by thoughts….so a determination is made not to “keep sinning” but to ask for God’s help through Jesus Christ, to keep us FROM sinning as best we can in our imperfect flesh. Help is a prayer away.

I am not sure what that has to do with whether or not the inborn tendency to sin was inherent in the creation.

 

[JBO]

Well then, I guess you really miss the import - the value - of what these verses explain to us, my cousin.

Since Genesis 3:20 tells us Eve became “the mother of everyone living”, that means by necessity Adam became the father of the human race.

He “passed on” his imperfection That’s why at Romans 5:12, Paul specifically added “οὕτως” (houtōs)
Adverb
Strong's 3779: Thus, so, in this manner. Or (referring to what precedes or follows).

As the NLT puts it….
“When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.”

“Spread” is actually a term used in the population genetics & biohealth fields.

Adam was a “son of God” (Luke 3:38) As such, his quality of life far exceeded that of any of the animals. It started out that way….

Through Jesus, God has put in place the means through which all of mankind can be redeemed.
Which includes restoring everlasting life to obedient / humble mankind. -Romans 6:23

Paul tells us specifically why death spread to everyone. It was "because everyone sinned". Adam was just the first. You didn't die spiritually because Adam sinned; you died spiritually because you sinned. It was you @TheHC, not Adam, who caused you to die spiritually. You were dead in your trespasses and sins, not Adam's. And In Christ you were forgiven of your trespasses and sins, not Adam's.

 

[JBO]

If that was so, then Christ would have been 'lustful', and that certainly wasn't the case..

Then what was the temptation? If there is no desire, then there can be no temptation.

 

[Hobie]

So the question that presents itself, is why do Christians continue in sin...

 

[JBO]

So the question that presents itself, is why do Christians continue in sin...

Precisely for the same reason that Adam and Eve sinned!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

]James 1:13-15 (KJV): 13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16Do not err, my beloved brethren.

This is speaking of what Jesus said in Mark 4:13-20.... lust is conceived when it ENTERS IN which is the point in which the desire to do evil becomes sinful behavior for that person because they have accepted the desires to do evil.

Those that reject the moving of the Holy Spirit obviously wouldn't understand

Not in the sense that you seem to be claiming.

Cessationists reject the moving of the Holy Spirit in modern times
because this is what their personal demon has led them to believe

In other words, you obvious did not understand what I had said in my post and only focused on the two-letter acronym "bs" for your rebuttal and so you confirmed what I had posted with your own form of "BS.".

Still got that un-godly potty mouth workin I see....

Being obedient to God is meaningless unless the desire to do otherwise is very real.

Jesus never once... allowed any desire to do evil ENTER IN to His mind... not once.

Some claim Jesus was desiring to do evil... which is an evil claim to make about Jesus and is one that come from doctrines of devils.

Sometimes you gotta call bullshit what it is.

Those who speak like this are of the devil.... the Holy Spirit never leads people to speak like this.

Satan didn't know that? Was he really that stupid? I don't think so.

satan's wisdom has been corrupted... he believes his own lies and thinks he can still win against the Lord in the end.

What's comical (in a sad way) is some folks thinking satan is smart compared to the Lord

God set a trap for the devil and tricked him in to taking Jesus to the Cross. see 1 Corinthians 2:8-10

If that was so, then Christ would have been 'lustful', and that certainly wasn't the case..

It's sad that some think Jesus was a sinner... really sad.

Then what was the temptation? If there is no desire, then there can be no temptation.

The temptation was the devil presenting opportunity for Jesus to sin... and since Jesus had no desire to disobey the Father, He got a good laugh each time the devil came to try and get Jesus to sin.

Mature believers should also be getting a good laugh every time the devil tries to get them to sin too!
Ha ha! Old devil think I'm falling for that... that''s hilarious!

 

[Lambano]

Those who speak like this are of the devil.... the Holy Spirit never leads people to speak like this.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. - Philippians 3:8

As many Biblical scholars have noted, the Greek word σκύβαλον (skubalon) Paul uses here could very accurately be translated into the harsher English word I used. The only difference is that one is arbitrarily considered socially acceptable and the other is arbitrarily considered socially unacceptable.

 

[mailmandan]

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. - Philippians 3:8

As many Biblical scholars have noted, the Greek word σκύβαλον (skubalon) Paul uses here could very accurately be translated into the harsher English word I used. The only difference is that one is arbitrarily considered socially acceptable and the other is arbitrarily considered socially unacceptable.

Yes, multiple translations do say dung, which primarily refers to animal or human excrement used metaphorically to convey the idea of worthlessness. So, saying BS (cow dung) is not exactly inaccurate. Don't mind Dan Clarkston. Everyone is of the devil to him.

 

[JBO]

Cessationists reject the moving of the Holy Spirit in modern times

That is not true. The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is not the empowering Holy Spirit to work signs, wonders and miracles; rather it is the indwelling Holy Spirit, the helper and comforter promised to all who have been saved.

satan's wisdom has been corrupted... he believes his own lies and thinks he can still win against the Lord in the end.

If he believes it, then it may be wrong, but it is not a lie. And I doubt that he is so stupid to think that he can win against God. He is only trying to seduce as many as he can to thwart their acceptance of God as their savior.

It's sad that some think Jesus was a sinner... really sad.

I don't know anyone that thinks that.

The temptation was the devil presenting opportunity for Jesus to sin... and since Jesus had no desire to disobey the Father, He got a good laugh each time the devil came to try and get Jesus to sin.

I don't think Jesus thought it was funny. The scriptures make no such claim.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ. - Philippians 3:8

Dung is not a cuss world... it's like saying poo

You are using foul language and since God's Word says out of the abundance of one's hear the mouth speaks... now we know what you are full of!

Go ahead and use that cuss word you used earlier in front of some man's small children and see what happens... you know it's demonic to speak this way

Maybe someday you'll get the Spirit of God on the inside and become one of His lead by the Spirit and be delivered from filthy language and a filthy heart.

That is not true. The gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) is not the empowering Holy Spirit to work signs, wonders and miracles; rather it is the indwelling Holy Spirit, the helper and comforter promised to all who have been saved.

It doesn't mean that for you obviously . . . according to your faith it's done unto you so it's no wonder you have no power to do nuthin. Here's what Jesus said about it:

Acts 1:8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

I don't know anyone that thinks that.

There are some here claiming Jesus desired to do evil... if He did, then that is sinful behavior according to Jesus' own teachings.

I don't think Jesus thought it was funny. The scriptures make no such claim.

Why wouldn't he?

Jesus was steadfast in His commitment to please the Father and satan thought he was going to con Jesus in to doing sin like he conned Adam in to doing sin.... that's hilarious cause the devil didn't know Who he was dealing with!

Psalm 37:13
the Lord laughs at the wicked, for he sees that his day is coming

Psalm 2:4
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.