Did Jesus inherit sinful flesh nature?

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus inherited the effects of Adam's sin, the lusts of the flesh and mortality.

Jesus came from outside of the human race because of the defect created by Adam’s sin.
He was like Adam was when he was first created…..sinless. It didn’t take away his free will but it allowed him to combat it more easily.
Adam was perfect when God created him, but he misused his free will, and threw all his children under the bus.

Adam was not created mortal, but received this because of his disobedience. So Jesus was not born the same as Adam before the fall.

Adam was always mortal because “the tree of life” was accessible to him, so as long as he continued to be obedient, he would continue to live. Once he transgressed God’s command, death was the sentence. Death could not occur any other way…..he was not told that his mortality would ultimately kill him….only sin would result in death.

“Mortal” doesn’t mean that we have to die…only that we can.
Continuing life was contingent on their obedience. There was no natural cause of death in Eden, because there were no immortal souls and death was the opposite of life, like it is for animals. Partaking of the tree of life would have meant living forever as Gen 3:22-24 clearly states. Once sin entered the picture, God denied access to the tree of life. Sinners would then die, within the “day” that God stated.
“….one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” ((2 Peter 3:7-8)
Not a single human has lived to 1000 years. Methuselah almost made it…at 969 years of age.

Adam and his wife were evicted from the garden and denied access to “the tree of life”….that is what brought about eventual death….humans lived very long lives prior to the flood….closer to perfection they lived for hundreds of years. But after the flood, human lifespan continued to decline until we now live on average to 70 or 80. Old age brings with it a multitude of health issues. None of that was meant to happen.

Everlasting life is not immortality. The important difference answers a lot of questions.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

He was like Adam was when he was first created…..sinless. It didn’t take away his free will but it allowed him to combat it more easily.

You are continuing to wrongly label the lusts of the flesh as sin. Jesus was a descendant of Adam through Mary and inherited the lusts of the flesh.

Adam was always mortal because “the tree of life” was accessible to him, so as long as he continued to be obedient, he would continue to live.

The tree of life did not maintain his existence while in the garden. Eating of the tree of life would be available once Adam had successfully completed his probation. Adam was sentenced to return to the dust after he had sinned.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

How can it be a battle if it is not a choice?

You are missing the point of what “sin” is exactly.
The word “sin” is an archery term that means to “miss the mark”….it means that humankind “miss the mark” of the perfection with which Adam was created. After sin entered the human race, all Adam’s offspring inherited his defect.

When sin entered the human genome, it became a defect in mankind. How did sin enter the human race? Through the actions of one man…(Rom 5:12) it is an inheritance, passed on genetically so that we cannot escape this genetic death sentence.

A deliberate choice was made by Adam to join his wife in disobedience….his choice to sin was made by himself…..but with his descendants, there was no choice. We were plunged into sin through no fault on our part, which is what Paul stated in Romans 7:14-25. The propensity to sin in inborn, but the choice to give in to it, is our own choice. There are two kinds of sin….the one that is inborn (which we cannot eliminate ourselves) and the actions we choose to take (which are entirely under our control) This is the reason why “self-control” is a fruit of God’s spirit. A powerful factor in combatting the sinful tendencies in us.

Because they all sinned. Not because Adam sinned. Adam was just the first (actually the second, but no matter) to sin. He introduced sin to the physical creation. As a result, he introduced spiritual death to the physical creation.

Think for a moment about what you just said…..all humans sinned because they wanted to? Why would God create all humans to sin? Why was there a death penalty for sinning if God was just going to sit back and watch his creation wither up in old age or sickness and die? That makes no sense. We are made in his image…and death was never supposed to be a part of that.

Adam was the first human to misuse his free will, baited by the devil, (who was the first rebel) by using his affection for his wife to encourage him to make a bad decision. Adam played right into that scheme, thereby making satan his god and ruler, severing their relationship with their Creator.

Jehovah allowed satan to have his “week” of glory, ruling over mankind and acting as their god. (Luke 4:5-7) This time period has allowed God to separate those who love him, in spite of what the devil has done, from those who love their disobedience.…(both in heaven and on earth).
The devil’s time is almost up…and he is not happy. He knows he is going down, but he will take as many as he can deceive, down with him. (Rev 12:7-12)

Physical death is an integral feature of this physical creation. The tree of life was placed in the garden to fend off that integral feature. Once ejected from the Garden, Adam and Eve no longer had access to that fruit and thus ended up eventually dying. But the spiritually died in the day the sinned.

Yes, the humans began to die from the day they ate of the fruit and rebelled against God’s Sovereignty.

Their mortality did not mean that they had to die….only that they could.
Not a lot is said about “the tree of life”….only that they were prevented from accessing it after they had sinned. Sin was the only stated cause of death in Eden….so access to the tree of life would have meant no death ever occurring, for any reason. That is “everlasting life”…not to be confused with “immortality”.

Where do you read any of that? No one is born with the inheritance of sin. Sin is not inherited. Sin is committed.

There are two kinds of sin…..the one in our DNA that gives us the propensity to make flawed decisions….and the one we choose to commit. We are judged on the latter, not the former. Which is why Christ’s sacrifice covers only the inherited sin….his blood does not cover the deliberate and willful disobedience seen in Adam…and all who display his attitude. God’s laws are not negotiable.

The physical death of Christ on the cross did not stop anyone from dying physically. It didn't even stop anyone from dying spiritually. The physical death of Christ on the cross was a sacrifice to God for the sins of the world. It was the means of redemption for all who would accept it. Those who accept it still die physically; however, they do not die the second death (Rev 20:14).

Those who have died have ‘paid sin’s wages’ and await a resurrection, either to life, or to a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) Christ’s blood reaches into the grave (Sheol, hades) to bring all the dead back to life. Some who have practiced vile things in the past due to ignorance, will be given another chance at life.

But the incorrigibly wicked will never live again, having gone to “Gehenna”…”the lake of fire” from which condition no one returns. It means the “second death”…..no resurrection is possible for those ones.
Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life.

What we are waiting for now, is the foretold “end“ of satan’s rule, and the abyssing of him and his hordes, so that God’s Kingdom can replace the disgustingly corrupt rulership of man that is now destroying the planet and making us all slaves to material things. (Daniel 2:44)

What does mankind have to look forward to? Projections are scary to say the least….but the Bible tells us what to expect, and how God will intervene to rescue his people and to end the wickedness forever.

Sin is not inherited. The natural tendency to sin is inherited. That natural tendency was built into the creation of the human being. Otherwise, there would be no need for any of God's law. The tendency to sin is not sin.

Why would God create man “in his image” and then make it a natural tendency in him to sin?….and then punish him for sinning?!
God’s creation was without defect…as he stated after the close of the sixth day….everything was “very good”….meaning that all that God had made met with his declaration of satisfaction. There was no tendency to sin in the human genome until sin was carried out as an abuse of free will. Use your logic. Sin did not exist until Adam disobeyed…..only then did it spread to “all men“.

If you go back to Genesis, you will see that God had only one law that carried a penalty. And it was there to basically test out free will. Because they transgressed that one law, humans, now bound to sin, had to have hundreds of laws to govern their behavior, if they wanted to please God. Having those laws, God’s people were completely different in their behavior to the nations around them who did not have God’s laws to govern them.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

You are continuing to wrongly label the lusts of the flesh as sin. Jesus was a descendant of Adam through Mary and inherited the lusts of the flesh.

You don’t seem to understand why Jesus had to come from outside the now defective human race…..
His life was sacrificed as the payment of a ransom. The price was set when the sin was committed.

Atonement meant that the life sacrificed had to be the equivalent of the life that was lost….one for one.

What Adam lost for his children, Christ came to pay….a ransom that only a sinless life could redeem.
If Jesus was related to Mary in any way, his DNA would still carry Adam’s defect. Jesus came through the woman but God implanted the embryo who became Jesus…..the child who grew in her womb. He was sinless from birth carrying no defect from Adam. It would have cancelled out the whole reason for his coming from heaven to be born as a human child. (John 8:23)

The tree of life did not maintain his existence while in the garden. Eating of the tree of life would be available once Adam had successfully completed his probation. Adam was sentenced to return to the dust after he had sinned.

The idea of probation is not without foundation. The garden was basically a “blueprint” of what the humans would do when they widened the boundaries of their paradise home until the whole world was like the garden of Eden. They were told to “fill the earth“ with their children and to “subdue” it, bringing the land outside, under their care and control. This was their purpose. To represent God ( made in his image) to take care of all that God created to live here.

But what do we really know about “the tree of life” in the garden? Not a lot is said except that we are told in Genesis 3:22-24…
”Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life.”

Rev 22:1-2….
“And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations.”

“Trees of life” are not mentioned again until the Revelation where there are more trees producing 12 crops of fruit that are for “the curing” or “healing of the nations”.

God made sure that these trees were not available to mankind until he was ready to reverse the awful situation created by the first rebels. The healing or curing of the nations is apparently their purpose….so whether the tree of life in Eden was a one off ‘dose’….or whether the tree was accessible on some sort of regular basis is not really stated, but the Revelation does seem to suggest that these trees have healing or life giving properties.

 

[Pierac]

Jesus took Adams human nature after the fall so He was born with all the damage done to mans nature during that time. But Jesus did not inherit sinful tendencies from Adam, that is, Jesus did not have a tendency to sin. Christ inherited our physical weaknesses, for example, Christ had to sleep when he got tired. He had to eat when he got hungry and drink when he got thirsty. He inherited our physical limitations but not our sinful inclinations.

Physically, Christ was like us, feeling pain, frail, weak, prone to get sick if we dont take care of our bodies, and under the consequences of aging. But morally, Christ could be tested by temptation as scripture shows us but did not have our ungodly desires or sinful inclinations. Jesus' mental human nature (tendency toward sin) was that of the unfallen Adam and his physical human nature (physical body) was that after the fall of Adam." and at the same time why it makes it hard to understand. What makes Jesus equal (having no advantage over other human beings), is that he had all the damage done by sin (Adam’s human nature after the fall), but he had what Peter calls 'the Mind of Christ' which was what Adam was given to begin with and Paul speaks of, that man can have and become dead to sin. Thus Christ has no advantage in overcoming sin as through the power of the Holy Spirit we also can have the 'Mind of Christ'.

Your a silly child boy .... Jesus is the second Adam yet both are born of flesh, and both are born from the spirit of God... and both have a God!

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Does Jesus have a God? What saith the scriptures....

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him

Mar 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

Joh 20:17 Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

(John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

And
AND, conj.

And is a conjunction, connective or conjoining word. It signifies that a word or part of a sentence is to be added to what precedes. Thus, give me an apple and an orange; that is, give me an apple, add or give in addition to that, an orange. John and Peter and James rode to New York, that is, John rode to New York; add or further, Peter rode to New York; add James rode to New York.

Pay attention boy.... Jesus was and still is a MAN!!!

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Paul wrote 1Ti 2:5 decades after Jesus' death and resurrection...

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now! review the definition of AND above... again!

Listen boy...

On the authority of Jesus himself we know that the categories of "flesh" and "spirit" are never to be confused or intermingled, though the course of God's Spirit can impact our world. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit" (John 3:6). And "God is Spirit." The doctrine of the incarnation confuses these categories. What God has separated man has joined together! One of the charges that the apostle Paul levels at simple man is that we have "exchange the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man" (Romans 1:23). Has it ever dawned on us as we sit in church listening to how the glorious Creator made Himself into a man that we could be guilty of this very same thing? The doctrine of the incarnation has reduced the incorruptible God to our own corruptible image. We are made in God's image, not the other way around. It would be more appropriate to put this contrast in starker terms. The defining characteristic of the Creator God is his absolute holiness. God is utterly different from and so utterly transcendent over His creation that any confusion is forbidden!

BOY... Whom do you worship?

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

How do you not know these things?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

There are two kinds of sin….the one that is inborn (which we cannot eliminate ourselves) and the actions we choose to take (which are entirely under our control)

No. There is only one kind of sin. The lusts of the flesh are not "sin". One of the most pivotal verses on this subject is the following:
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
What is interesting is that the word "sin" S#266 occurs three times as highlighted above and one of these is obscured by the translation "sinful flesh" which could be rendered "sin's flesh" or "flesh of sin". I have read many explanations of this verse, and many are tainted with the individual's theology. Also within my own fellowship there has been some difference of understanding on the various words and phrases, some very minor and some relatively important aspects.

If Jesus was related to Mary in any way, his DNA would still carry Adam’s defect. Jesus came through the woman but God implanted the embryo who became Jesus…..the child who grew in her womb. He was sinless from birth carrying no defect from Adam.

You continue on with the unique JW perspective on this subject and I consider that I have given an adequate answer on this. Jesus was the descendant of Adam and David through Mary.

“Trees of life” are not mentioned again until the Revelation where there are more trees producing 12 crops of fruit that are for “the curing” or “healing of the nations”.

The "Tree of Life" is also mentioned earlier in the Book of Revelation and is very relevant:
Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

No. There is only one kind of sin. The lusts of the flesh are not "sin". One of the most pivotal verses on this subject is the following:
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
What is interesting is that the word "sin" S#266 occurs three times as highlighted above and one of these is obscured by the translation "sinful flesh" which could be rendered "sin's flesh" or "flesh of sin". I have read many explanations of this verse, and many are tainted with the individual's theology. Also within my own fellowship there has been some difference of understanding on the various words and phrases, some very minor and some relatively important aspects.

Paul tells us that Jesus Christ, although partaking of blood and flesh, becoming “like his ‘brothers,’” was “guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners,” “tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.” (Heb 2:17; Heb 4:15; 7:26)

Jehovah proved that human flesh can be sinless. “God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh.” (Ro 8:3) It says ….“In the likeness of” not that Christ was sent “in sinful flesh”. Eventually, through the provision of Christ’s sacrifice, all who exercise faith will become perfect, and God’s righteous laws will then be kept perfectly by mankind. (Rev 21:2-4)

For Adam sin was a choice…but for his descendants it was not a choice at all…..all sinned and fell short.
Without Christ’s sacrifice, no human flesh would have any future…..all they could look forward to was a short trouble filled life and then death.

You continue on with the unique JW perspective on this subject and I consider that I have given an adequate answer on this. Jesus was the descendant of Adam and David through Mary.

Why is it a unique JW perspective? If you understand what redemption is, there is only one way to see it….Jesus had to be sinless….not just by choice, but by the fact that he came into the world unrelated to Adam’s DNA. Mary was as sinful as any other human and so her DNA was as flawed as anyone else’s.

Jesus could not pay for what Adam lost unless he was sinless….not tainted with the stain of sin in his flesh.
Do I understand that you retain the Universalist view that Jesus was just a man.…potentially as sinful as any other? He just chose not to be? If that was the case, why did God need to produce him by a miracle? Why couldn’t he just be the son of Mary and Joseph?

The "Tree of Life" is also mentioned earlier in the Book of Revelation and is very relevant:
Revelation 2:7 (KJV): He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

So what is the tree of life to you Trevor? Where is the paradise of God?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Jesus had to be sinless….not just by choice, but by the fact that he came into the world unrelated to Adam’s DNA. Mary was as sinful as any other human and so her DNA was as flawed as anyone else’s.

Yes, you continue to repeat the strange JW view of the Atonerment.

So what is the tree of life to you Trevor? Where is the paradise of God?

This has developed into figurative language.Jesus will grant immortality to the faithful when he returns to set up the Kingdom of God upon the earth 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The lusts of the flesh are not "sin".

Hilarious!

Those claiming this don't know the Lord or His Word very well at all.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Don Clarkson,

The lusts of the flesh are not "sin".

Those claiming this don't know the Lord or His Word very well at all.

James 1:13–16 (KJV): 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 John 3:4 (KJV): Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JBO]

You are missing the point of what “sin” is exactly.

Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Or as the KJV says, sin is transgression of the law. It is something that one does.

Since sin is by definition lawlessness, there can be no such thing as sin without a valid body of law. Paul says the law gives us our knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20). He says, “I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, ‘You shall not covet’” (Rom 7:7).

Scripture gives abundant attestation to the existence of law, using many terms to describe it. Eight of these appear in Ps 119 alone: “law,” “commandments,” “statutes,” “testimonies,” “word,” “judgments,” “precepts,” and “ordinances.”

The two most general kinds of law have been called moral laws and positive laws. The former are commandments that generally reflect the holy nature of God and thus are absolute and unchanging. They are meant to apply equally to all people in all times and places. Examples are the commandments that forbid murder, adultery, stealing, lying, and coveting (Exod 20:13-17). Positive laws are commandments that express God’s will for specific persons or peoples in specific times and places. Examples are the requirement of circumcision for the OT people of God, and the requirement of the Lord’s Supper for his NT people. Disobedience to either kind of law constitutes sin.

While the moral law applies universally, the existence of positive laws designed for limited application means that more than one law code may be identified. A law code is the totality of the body of commandments that apply to an individual and for which that individual is responsible.

We may distinguish at least three such codes. One consists of the moral law only. This applies to those who have access to this law only as known in their hearts (Rom 2:15) and in the creation (Rom 1:18-21), and who have no access to any form of special revelation of positive laws. Thus even pagans with no knowledge of the Bible have a law code and commit sin when they disobey it (Rom 1:18-32).

The second main law code is the Law of Moses, including Israel’s Old Covenant responsibilities. This code included both the moral law and many positive laws (e.g., circumcision, the Sabbath, animal sacrifices). In its Mosaic form it was intended only for the Jews and for OT times only; disobedience thereto is what constituted sin for OT Israel.

The third law code is the totality of NT commandments as they apply in the New Covenant age. These include the moral law as well as various New Covenant ordinances, all of which are intended to apply to everyone living in this New Covenant age. Today all those who have access to the NT yet disobey its commandments are guilty of sin.

A presupposition of sin in the life of the individual is the knowledge of God’s law, or at least the possibility of knowing his law. Knowledge of sin comes through knowledge of law (Rom 3:20; 7:7). The first three chapters of Romans make it clear that because of general revelation, in one form or another law is in fact everywhere (Rom 1:18-21,32; 2:14-15). This means that the knowledge of law is available to everyone. But in Rom 4:15 Paul notes that “where there is no law, there also is no violation.” In view of Rom 1–3 (especially 2:15), how can there be any situation “where there is no law”? In the final analysis this must refer to an individual’s unavoidable ignorance of the law, as in the case of children who have not reached the age of accountability and in the case of the mentally handicapped, i.e., anyone who is unable to understand the origin and nature of law as commandments of God bearing the penalty of eternal wrath (Rom 7:9). Willful ignorance of the law, however, is no excuse (Rom 1:18; Eph 4:18).

There is much more that can be said about the nature of sin, but that should suffice to show you that I am not missing the point of what sin is exactly.

The word “sin” is an archery term that means to “miss the mark”….it means that humankind “miss the mark” of the perfection with which Adam was created. After sin entered the human race, all Adam’s offspring inherited his defect.

When sin entered the human genome, it became a defect in mankind. How did sin enter the human race? Through the actions of one man…(Rom 5:12) it is an inheritance, passed on genetically so that we cannot escape this genetic death sentence.

Sin did not enter the human genome. There is no "sin gene". And any category of thoughts that you have that derive from such an idea will invariably be wrong. So much of what followed falls within that category.

Think for a moment about what you just said…..all humans sinned because they wanted to? Why would God create all humans to sin?

God did not create all humans to sin. God created all humans with the ability to obey or not as they wished. Along with that God set down certain commandments that He wanted to be obeyed.

Why was there a death penalty for sinning if God was just going to sit back and watch his creation wither up in old age or sickness and die? That makes no sense. We are made in his image…and death was never supposed to be a part of that.

Physical death is an integral part of creation. There is no such thing as inherent physical immortality in the whole of the physical universe. There are occasions where sin does result in physical damage or even death of either the sinner or an innocent bystander. But that is not what Paul in Roman 6:23 is talking about. When Paul says there that the wages of sin is death, the death that he is talking about is spiritual death, the death that he later says in Ephesians 2:1 that we were once death in trespasses and sins. Sin results in a damage to the spirit of man, not the body of man. It is the spirit that needs to be reborn, not the flesh (John 3:1-16).

Adam was the first human to misuse his free will, baited by the devil, (who was the first rebel) by using his affection for his wife to encourage him to make a bad decision. Adam played right into that scheme, thereby making satan his god and ruler, severing their relationship with their Creator.

No it didn't sever their relationship with their Creator. It certainly damaged that relationship, by it was not destroyed. Such thinking is the single biggest fallacy of the Calvinist/Reformed Theology, i.e., Total Depravity. It was not Adam's sin that caused the death of your spirit; it was your sin that caused you to be dead in trespasses and sins. It was because of your sin that you needed to be reborn; it was your spirit that needed to be reborn.

Nearly all of what followed is simply wrong because it is based upon your false belief that physical death is the wages paid for sin.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings JBO,

Physical death is an integral part of creation.

I enjoyed your thorough exposition. I am not sure of what you are actually saying here as to the status of man, and what happened to Adam as a result of his transgression.

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This physical death was a direct result of Adam's transgression, not an integral part of his creation.

what Paul in Roman 6:23 is talking about. When Paul says there that the wages of sin is death, the death that he is talking about is spiritual death

I disagree. I consider that this is alluding to Genesis 3:19 and the initial and final outcome is based upon God's judgement initiated in Eden. Yes, we inherit mortality from Adam whether we be sinners or not, but we only escape this end result by our belief of the Gospel and our identification with Christ in his death and resurrection by water baptism Acts 8:5-6,12 and then living the crucified life Galatians 2:20.

Romans 6:20-23 (KJV): 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Every time we lay an adult in the grave, we could say, "the wages of sin is death". This may not be the end of the story, as some of these will be raised from the dead and given eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JBO]

Greetings JBO,

I enjoyed your thorough exposition. I am not sure of what you are actually saying here as to the status of man, and what happened to Adam as a result of his transgression.

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV): 17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Well yes he did return to dust. but that was in complete harmony with how he was created. We know that because the tree of life was placed in the Garden to fend off the natural action of physically dying: Gen 3:22-23 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

It was only in the Garden that they would not die.

This physical death was a direct result of Adam's transgression, not an integral part of his creation.

The physical death was an integral part of his creation. As a result of Adam's transgression, he was ejected from the Garden and no longer had access to the tree of life which would have prevented his physically dying.

Every time we lay an adult in the grave, we could say, "the wages of sin is death". This may not be the end of the story, as some of these will be raised from the dead and given eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Trevor, if the wages of sin is physical death and you being one whose sins are forgiven by God and one whose sins God will not hold against you, then why will you die?

 

[Dan Clarkston]

1 John 3:4 (KJV): Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law

But... not the law of moses.

Did you not understand that under the New Covenant we are under the Law of Christ?

Ask yourself... WHO is greater? Jesus Christ, or Moses???


Law of Christ
The phrase "the law of Christ" appears only in Galatians 6:2, although it is implied by the wording of 1 Corinthians 9:21 as well. In both places, its precise meaning is difficult to fix. In Galatians, Paul argues vigorously that the law given at Sinai makes no claim on those who believe in Christ, whether Gentile or Jew ( 2:15-21 ; Galatians 3:10-14 Galatians 3:23-26 ; 4:4-5 ; 4:21-5:6).

He then appeals to the Galatians to engage in ethical behavior by walking in the Spirit ( 5:16 Galatians 16 ), being lead by the Spirit ( 5:18 ), and fulfilling "the law of Christ" (ho nomos tou Christou) through bearing one another's burdens ( 6:2 ). In 1 Corinthians 9 Paul demonstrates how Christians should, out of love for the weaker brother or sister, refrain from demanding their rights.

By way of illustration Paul says in verses 19-23 that he adopts certain Jewish customs when among Jews, although he is not under the Jewish law, and that he adopts some Gentile customs when among Gentiles, although he is not without the law of God but rather "in the law of Christ" (ennomos Christou).

It seems fairly clear from these two texts that Paul uses the phrase to mean something other than the law given to Israel at Sinai and considered by most Jews to be their special possession.

Help is found in the prophets. In Isaiah 42:1-4 we read that God's chosen servant will one day establish justice throughout the earth and that "the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law" (NASB). If we take this passage to refer to the Messiah, then we could paraphrase it by saying that the Christ, when he comes, will teach God's law to the Gentiles ("the coastlands"). Jeremiah 31:31-34 similarly predicts the coming of a time in which disobedient Israel will receive a new covenant, consisting of a law written on the heart and therefore obeyed (cf. Ezek 36:26-27 ).

Jesus' teaching, although standing in continuity with the law given at Sinai, nevertheless sovereignly fashions a new law. In some instances Jesus sharpens commandments ( Matt 5:17-48 ) and in others considers them obsolete ( Mark 7:17-19 ). On one occasion, having been asked to identify the greatest commandment, Jesus concurs with the Jewish wisdom of his time ( Mark 12:32-33 ) that the greatest commandments are to love God supremely and to love one's neighbor as oneself ( Mark 12:28-31 ). He breaks with tradition, however, by defining the term "neighbor" to mean even the despised Samaritan ( Luke 10:29-37 ).

Paul believed that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ marked the beginning point of God's new covenant ( 2 Cor 3:1-18 ; Gal 4:21-31 ; cf. Rom 8:2 ). Like Isaiah, he believed that this covenant included the Gentiles ( Gal 3:7-20 ), and like Jeremiah he believed that it offered Israel a remedy for the curse that the old Sinaitic covenant pronounced on Israel's disobedience ( Gal 3:10-13 ).

In light of this, Paul understood the teaching of Christ as a new law. If so, then the correspondence between the ethical teaching of Jesus and Paul on many points (e.g., 1 Cor 7:10-11 / Mark 10:2-9 ; 1 Cor 9:14 / Luke 10:7 ; Rom 14:1-23 / Mark 7:18-19 ) is a matter of Paul's intention rather than happy accident. Paul's own admonition to fulfill the law of Christ by bearing one another's burdens provides both a pithy restatement of Jesus' summary of the law and an indication that Jesus' teaching fulfills prophetic expectations.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you
are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again JBO,

Well yes he did return to dust. but that was in complete harmony with how he was created.

I consider that "unto dust shalt thou return" was the sentence of death because of Adam's sin.

take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
It was only in the Garden that they would not die.

I consider that only one eating would have granted everlasting life. I consider that "eat and live forever" is not saying if they continue to eat they will continue to live.

Trevor, if the wages of sin is physical death and you being one whose sins are forgiven by God and one whose sins God will not hold against you, then why will you die?

Because in the wisdom of God disease and death, the major effects of Adam's transgression upon us are not removed immediately. Christ the first fruits, after they that are his at his coming. The crown of life will be granted to those that love his appearing.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Don Clarkston,

In light of this, Paul understood the teaching of Christ as a new law.

I appreciate your exposition. I do not see how this is relevant to whether or not Jesus had the lusts of the flesh.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I appreciate your exposition. I do not see how this is relevant to whether or not Jesus had the lusts of the flesh.

Jesus said if one lusts after a woman in his heart... he has already committed adultery.

That's the standard Jesus brings to the New Covenant... if one desires that which is evil, that is sinful behavior.

So those claiming Jesus had evil desires are accusing the Lord of being a sinner engaging in sinful behavior.

And that is one way someone can generate strife between themselves and the Lord as it's never good to agree with satan in claiming the Lord has or is involved in sinful behavior.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Don Clarkston,

Jesus said if one lusts after a woman in his heart... he has already committed adultery.

But such a lust is one additional step towards transgression. Having the lusts of the flesh is not sin, it is only sin when these lusts conceive James 1:13-16. In beholding a woman it is possible to "not err". Jesus did not err. Our past habits of thought must be overcome, replaced, sublimated.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Having the lusts of the flesh is not sin

That's just what you think... if one does not cast down thoughts, imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God (2 Corinthians 10:5), then they are entertaining evil thoughts which is sunful.

It's not a sin for the thought to come as we all have been tempted by the devil as was Jesus... but Jesus did what 2 Corinthians 10:5 says and the devil had NOTHING in Him (John 14:30)

It's amazing to hear those who "claim" the be Christians say Jesus walked in the lusts of the flesh desiring to do things that were sinful.

Galatians 5:16
Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

There was never once a time when Jesus was not doing what He saw the Father do

John 5:19
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Those that don't know the Lord who are ignorant of the whole counsel of God have listened to demons who tell them Jesus desired to do evil and it's OK for us to desire to do evil.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Jesus NEVER allowed anything to come in to Him that would choke God's Word causing Him to not bear fruit...

Mark 4:13-20
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? The sower soweth the word. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Here we see Jesus telling us the 5 things the devil uses to choke the Word and cause it to be unfruitful... IF these things are allowed to ENTER IN which we have the responsibility to not allow... see John 14:23 where Jesus says "If a man love me, he will keep my words" as in NOT allow it to be choked out of us.

The 5 things are... affliction, persecution, cares of this world, deceitfulness of riches, and lusts of other things