Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
A Premill accusing an Amill of taking scripture too literally. There's a new one.
How does withholding rain correspond with Jesus breaking them with His rod of iron like a vase being shattered into pieces?
So pre mills actually think when they come down to this earth after a rapture, their stuff left behind will still be there?
- Thread starter Scott Downey
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How does withholding rain correspond with Jesus breaking them with His rod of iron like a vase being shattered into pieces?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
First of all, do you acknowledge that what I said is true, which is that parables are not to be taken literally the way you were doing? I assume that you do not think Matthew 25:1-13 is about ten literal virgins, for example?
I don't know. Scripture does not give us many details about what it will be like exactly in the NHNE. It says there will be no more death, crying pain or sorrow there and things like that, but does not really go into detail about what life will be like there. I could speculate, but I'm not one who likes to speculate about things. We'll see when it happens.
I agree parables are not to be taken literally but the fact that the faithful servants are given cities has to have a meaning. It appears you are admitting Amil doesn’t have an interpretation for that parable that would agree with any other scriptures.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I agree, but I don't really know what that meaning is exactly beyond showing that being faithful will result in being rewarded in some way and neither do you. I'm not sure if there's any scripture which tells us that in detail.
Why is that? Clearly, we will receive rewards when Jesus comes. That isn't in question. The parable confirms that. Why does Amil have to be able to specify what those rewards will be exactly, but no other view does? How does your view of the parable agree with other scriptures? Is the point of the parable to indicate what rewards we will get exactly? No, I don't believe so. No one knows for sure because it doesn't give us details about that.
You seem to have missed Scott's point regarding the parable. The parable indicates that at the time Jesus comes and gives out rewards to His people, He destroys and punishes His enemies. That contradicts the Premill understanding that He will reign over His enemies at that point.
Well, I’ll start with when the kingdom is given to Christ. In Daniel 7:13-14 the Son of man is given dominion, glory, and a kingdom. In Ephesians 1:20-21 when Christ was raised from the dead, He was set above all principalities, power, might, and dominion.
It seems pretty straightforward that Christ was given the kingdom just after the cross. In Matthew 28:18 Jesus said all power is given me in heaven and earth. This statement was made prior to His Acts 1:9 ascension. Therefore it follows that the Luke 19:11-27 parable is talking about Christ as the nobleman when He was raised from the dead, received the kingdom, and returned as seen in John 20. In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father, in John 20:27 Thomas can touch Jesus; so the ascension, acquiring of the kingdom, and the return had all happened in a short time period.
Luke 19:13And he called his ten servants,
John 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Obviously Judas was already dead and Mathias was not yet an apostle, making ten servants.
Luke 19:15 then he commanded these servants to be called unto him.
Matthew 28:7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Luke 19:17 have thou authority over ten cities.
John 20:21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
All the other details linking the 10 apostles/servants to the Luke 19:11-27 parable were not recorded.
John 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
John had seven cities which were the seven churches in Revelation.
Well some pre mills think there will be unsaved survivors at the return of Christ. The Minas parable tells us Christ when He returns, all those who rejected Him in their life as ruling over them are slain.
Being given cities simply refers to they will be given authority over other believers who were not worthy of ruling. And I do think in the New earth to come, there will be lots of people and people will be given things to do. Scripture mentions judging the nations, well the people are some from every tribe tongue nation that are saved. It will not be a fully egalitarian society. God is not a communist, God rewards some with greater rewards, some with fewer, and some are scarcely saved losing all rewards they might have gotten. Some will have great gains, some will suffer great loss at the judgment.
Some day we will find out who is rewarded with what.
1 Cor 3
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
And the loss is set for eternity.
Daniel 12
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting [a]contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 “But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”
Ok, so you see the vast majority of Christians not being faithful servants and only a very few faithful being given the authority over the unfaithful servants.
Do you have any verses that point to this vast difference taking place in NHNE? I can find many verses about there only being a remnant that is saved but here we’re talking about a remnant of a remnant that get the cities.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You are aware that Amills agree with this, aren't you?
Right. So far, your understanding of the parable matches the typical Amill understanding. Or, at least the non-partial preterist Amill understanding.
Once again you are taking the parable literally by thinking it's talking about ten literal servants and so on. I thought you said you understand that parables are not meant to be taken literally? Do you also take the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 to be talking about ten literal virgins?
The virgins weren’t literal virgins and the minas weren’t literal minas.
At least you agree on when Jesus received the kingdom. Do you agree that Jesus came back to earth after receiving the kingdom, prior to His Acts 1:9 ascension?
No one can know exactly how God determines it all, but here is another aspect regarding faithfulness, and it has to do with contentions over doctrine.
And we know Christians have lots of various bad behaviors, divisive factions in the churches, contentional doctrines, widely varying one from the other.
2 Cor 12
19 Again, [d]do you think that we excuse ourselves to you? We speak before God in Christ. But we do all things, beloved, for your edification. 20 For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; 21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.
1 Cor 11
17 Now in giving these instructions I do not praise you, since you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be [b]recognized among you. 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame [c]those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you.
Where will they get the approval? From the judgment of God.
What did Jesus say about our words?
Matthew 12:36
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
How many idle, useless, bad, doctrinal words did you speak over the time of your life?
Did you take the Lord's name in vain? As in not giving God the proper and reverent respect?
Look at the OC
Deuteronomy 28
58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses.
Matthew 12:36
But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
How many idle, useless, bad, doctrinal words did you speak over the time of your life?
Did you take the Lord's name in vain? As in not giving God the proper and reverent respect?
Look at the OC
Deuteronomy 28
58 “If you do not carefully observe all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, THE LORD YOUR GOD, 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses.
On judgment day, Christians can’t be judged on their sins because they have been forgiven. They are given reward for the amount of righteous effort they put forth but I don’t think those who committed the least amount of sins are given the greatest rewards.
You will not be judged for eternal life due to past sins. You will be judged for eternal rewards for sins and every single thing you did after you were saved. Prove me wrong.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, you should understand that the 10 servants in the Luke 19 parable do not represent only 10 literal servants in reality any more than the ten virgins represent only ten people in reality.
Of course I do. Did you somehow not know that is a typical Amill belief?
Wait, what? Daniel 7:13-14 and Ephesians 1:19-23 have him receiving the kingdom when He bodily ascended to the Father in heaven. I suppose you could say He received it after His resurrection, but what do you mean by Him coming back to earth? Are you referring to His soul and spirit coming back to His resurrected body after going to heaven?
Rev 22 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Works of the flesh included.
Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here we have Paul warning the church, and do not tell me some saved Christians never do a work of the flesh, and they better never practice them.
Works of the flesh included.
Galatians 5
Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here we have Paul warning the church, and do not tell me some saved Christians never do a work of the flesh, and they better never practice them.
Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
When are the sins remembered no more? If sins are stilled remembered then that offering for those sins still needs to be made.
In John 20:17 Jesus tells Mary not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father.
In John 20:27 Jesus tells Thomas to thrust his hand into His side.
Jesus had to have ascended to the Father and came back else Thomas wouldn’t have been allowed to touch Him.
The sin offering for sins had to do with DEATH.
Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.
Christ became sin for us and died the death we should have died because we sinned, so that we would become righteous, but that does not mean the sins you do after being saved have no effect at all in your relationship with God. That is really stupid.
Children... Calm down....
Let him who has ears to hear, and eyes to see....
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"
In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal
Time to to have your eyes opened... to see...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits at his (resurrection!), after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (When Christ returns) 24 then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete) when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the (His) God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His (Jesus') feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (GOD) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God (the God of Jesus) may be all in all.
You know... The God whom gave Jesus his revelations.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (His) God gave Him
How do you not know these things?
Let him who has ears to hear, and eyes to see....
"In the book of Revelation we do not have the final plan of God. Paul, in 1Co_15:22-28 takes us much further into the future than does the book of Revelation. To illustrate this more clearly, study the following: 1Co_15:22-28 as compared with the new heaven and new earth of Revelation 20-22:
In Revelation 20-22, we have:
Still rule (Rev_20:6; Rev_22:5)
Son still reigns (Rev_22:1-5; Rev_21:5)
Authority (Rev_21:24-25)
Power (Rev_21:24-25; Rev_22:2)
Kings (Rev_21:24-26)
Saints reign (Rev_22:5)
Second death still exists (Rev_21:8)
The nations still mortal (Rev_22:2)"
In 1Co_15:22-28, we have:
No more rule
No more authority
No more power
No more enemies
No more reigning
All subjected
No more death, death destroyed
All made alive, immortal
Time to to have your eyes opened... to see...
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits at his (resurrection!), after that those who are Christ's at His coming, (When Christ returns) 24 then comes the end, (After the 1000 years on earth is complete) when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the (His) God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He (Jesus) must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His (Jesus') feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE (Jesus) HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (GOD) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (GOD), then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God (the God of Jesus) may be all in all.
You know... The God whom gave Jesus his revelations.... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which (His) God gave Him
How do you not know these things?