Was the Transfiguration a vision, or an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah?

[face2face]

@Johann I don't promote universalism!

 

[Johann]

@Johann I don't promote universalism!

My apologies then, but you and I don't see eye to eye.

J.

 

[face2face]

My apologies then, but you and I don't see eye to eye.

J.

Correct, because you do not understand the true nature of your Lord (in the flesh) as the Apostles taught, but you have turned to your deceived teachers who are blind and followed them.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

Three possible interpretations for Matthew 4

1. A fallen Angel
2. The High Priest (or representative)
3. Jesus' own mind

Points 2&3 have a lot more Scriptural support than point 1.

Only in your mind. One wonders how many others share your beliefs? Are you self taught?

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death. 2:16 For surely his concern is not for angels, but he is concerned for Abraham’s descendants. 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers and sisters in every respect, so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:14–17.

Read it Jane, study it and come to this fundamental truth!

OK....how about we get to the nitty gritty here and ask how the mechanics of redemption work and what redemption meant to Jews under Law....because if you don’t understand why a “sinless” Jesus had to come from God and outside of Adam’s DNA to redeem us, you have lost the plot.
Since death came as a result of sin, it required someone free from sin to remove sin and defeat death. It is Jesus Christ, the only sinless man ever born of woman who supplied the price that no one else could pay because every son of Adam was a born sinner.

Now tell me what “atonement” means.....”at-one-ment”.....one for one....and how Jesus’ sacrifice applied in that requirement....?

8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:3.

Where did God condemn sin Jane?

There are so many quotes your head would spin...

Only your head is spinning, not to mention the Scripture you quote.
“Where did God condemn sin”???? Are you serious?

Is there a big picture with you at all?
Why are we here....what was God’s purpose for our creation and how does Jesus sacrifice fit into that picture according to Isa 55:11?

Revelation 12 is symbolic - you don't understand the symbol of the adversary and false accuser being alluded to. Further more you don't want to know.

Or perhaps it’s you with your fingers in your ears?

Also, Rev 12 is not an origin story for your fallen angel Jane - its not speaking to your story of imitation in the Garden!

When will you show some honesty on this?

I suppose I will if you will....

Show me the Scripture Jane - is this an unreasonable request?

If such an important doctrine this is and you spruik it all over the forum surely you have something more to show as evidence?

The big picture F2F.....it’s all part of the big picture. It all fits perfectly, unlike your scenario, which appears to belong only to you. I cannot find anyone here who agrees with your interpretation of Scripture.

I believe you call upon the One True God however you don't have the complete story, or picture of truth. There are degrees of truth and I'm certain this will be revealed to all when he comes who is Truth.

Indeed and according to Jesus, it will come as quite a shock for some to realize that Jesus “NEVER” (as in NOT EVER) “KNEW” those who claimed to know him....(Matt 7:21-23) Which is why he said “few” are on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14) The majority are on on the wrong road.....but they all have one thing in common in their disagreements....they don’t believe the truth, but have their own.

Jesus will let us all know soon enough.....won’t it be interesting to find out who actually had their ears and hearts open.....and who had them closed......because they thought that they knew what others didn’t....?

 

[Jack]

Only in your mind. One wonders how many others share your beliefs? Are you self taught?

How ironic! Aunty is GB taught!

 

[face2face]

Only in your mind.

It's clear you have not tested your own beliefs otherwise these three interpratations would be known to you.

One wonders how many others share your beliefs? Are you self taught?

Many in the world understand the true nature of the temptations - I wouldn't want you to be ignorant of this mystery, that Christ was tempted (in the flesh) in all ways as you are and overcame each of them by the Power of his Fathers Word.

OK....how about we get to the nitty gritty here and ask how the mechanics of redemption work and what redemption meant to Jews under Law....because if you don’t understand why a “sinless” Jesus had to come from God and outside of Adam’s DNA to redeem us, you have lost the plot.

Someone forced the notion of this red text into your mind and sadly you took possession of it. I know and you know this red text cannot be supported with a single verse in the Bible - but I'm certain you will try.

Since death came as a result of sin, it required someone free from sin to remove sin and defeat death.

No, it required a person who was "born of a woman" in the sinful line of Adam for God to have victory over sins flesh. What you have Jane is a God with no victory!

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he (God) condemned sin in the flesh (of his son), Ro 8:3.

Can you answer this...How can God condemn sin in the nature of his son if its not present?

The question you need to ask yourself is how was it present?

It is Jesus Christ, the only sinless man ever born of woman who supplied the price that no one else could pay because every son of Adam was a born sinner.

Cheeky of you there Jane! Jesus was not born sinless! He did not have a "free life" as he was raised up to fully represent those he came to save.

How do we know this?

John 2:25 states, Jesus “knew what was in man.”

How did Jesus "know" what was in man?

I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress (agony) until it is accomplished! Luke 12:50

He had your nature
He was condemned to death in nature
Death had dominion over him all the days of his life
He suffered in the flesh and in temptation

The Apostles are super clear on this Jane - in fact, your view lacks the power of the Gospel as taught be the Apostle Paul

concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh Ro 1:3.

Why reference to the Flesh? Why was it essential Jesus be born into Sin's Flesh?

Well the answer depends on whether you know God or not - it depends on whether your God had a false victory or the real thing!

Now tell me what “atonement” means.....”at-one-ment”.....one for one....and how Jesus’ sacrifice applied in that requirement....?

At-one-ment as you rightly put it is the process by which God reconciles man (and women) back to Himself.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5:19).

What was God doing in His Son?

If you don't have the Word of Reconcilation then you would not know - its secrets are hidden from you Jane.

Only your head is spinning, not to mention the Scripture you quote.
“Where did God condemn sin”???? Are you serious?

This is the first wise question you have ever asked in all our discussions.

“Where did God condemn sin”????

Other than Romans 8:1-3 which is super clear He condemned sin in his Son through an obedient life.

If Adam received the condemnation of death...where and in whom did He remove it?

Heb. 13:20-- "The God of peace, who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, THROUGH THE BLOOD OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT"

Where you ask was sin condemned?

Let's see if you can connect the dots!

Is there a big picture with you at all?
Why are we here....what was God’s purpose for our creation and how does Jesus sacrifice fit into that picture according to Isa 55:11?

55:11 In the same way, the promise that I make does not return to me, having accomplished nothing. No, it is realized as I desire and is fulfilled as I intend. Is 55:11.

God choose to reveal His Will & Purpose in a Son and achieve the greatest victory ever known to Angel and Mankind.

READ THIS CAREFULLY JANE

15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 15:58 So then, dear brothers and sisters, be firm. Do not be moved! Always be outstanding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Co 15:54–58.

How did God's Promise remove the condemnation of Sin which leads to death from the earth AND in Whom?

Red text should help you!

Indeed and according to Jesus, it will come as quite a shock for some to realize that Jesus “NEVER” (as in NOT EVER) “KNEW” those who claimed to know him....(Matt 7:21-23) Which is why he said “few” are on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14) The majority are on on the wrong road.....but they all have one thing in common in their disagreements....they don’t believe the truth, but have their own.

Jesus will let us all know soon enough.....won’t it be interesting to find out who actually had their ears and hearts open.....and who had them closed......because they thought that they knew what others didn’t....?

I was hoping you would be able to show me your "Jesus had special DNA theology" but it didn't arrive.

If you are serious in learning about Christ, his true nature, and the Victory that God had in him, I'm always keen to discuss these secret things of the Lord.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Only in your mind.

In relation to Matthew 4... assuming we accept your belief that a creature (fallen angel) did all these things to Christ in his temptations....

Can you provide a record of this creature literally approaching the Lord later in His ministry?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane if you are not able to provide a record of this creature literally approaching the Lord later in his ministry would option 2&3 be more likely?

1. A fallen Angel
2. The High Priest (or representative)
3. Jesus' own mind

And would you be open to consider the evidence of options 2&3, as both have very strong support.

My personal belief is option 3, as the scene is set with his baptism, HS and being driven into the wilderness fasting for 40 days to be tempted in the sins flesh.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane

Rather than showing my bias to option 3, let's consider the possibility of it being a Jewish leader?

John: The Jewish crowd wanted to make him king (Jn. 6:15)

The wilderness temptations: Satan (adversary) offers him the kingship of the [Jewish?] world

John: The Jews ask for miraculous bread (Jn. 6:31)

The wilderness temptations: Satan (adversary) invites him to make miraculous bread

John: The [Jewish] disciples want Jesus to go to Jerusalem to show His power (Jn. 7:3)

The wilderness temptations: Satan (adversary) takes Jesus to Jerusalem and tempts Him to show His power.

Do you know I can prove from the text the Jewish authorities were looking for Jesus before, during and after his wilderness tempations.

If you read the text carefully its all there.

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

 

[Runningman]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

I think it's interesting that only Matthew recorded it as being a vision while the others recorded it as something they saw. I don't find any inconsistencies with what Matthew said because visions are seen. It's just that using the word vision is more specific and nuanced than seeing something that is real. Whatever happened, they all saw it together. They also all heard the words of God speaking from heaven. I am comfortable with it being a vision, but if it was more than a vision I am comfortable with that too.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think it's interesting that only Matthew recorded it as being a vision while the others recorded it as something they saw. I don't find any inconsistencies with what Matthew said because visions are seen. It's just that using the word vision is more specific and nuanced than seeing something that is real. Whatever happened, they all saw it together. They also all heard the words of God speaking from heaven. I am comfortable with it being a vision, but if it was more than a vision I am comfortable with that too.

The thing that convinced me that it wasn't a vision, was that Peter offered to build three shelters.
You don't offer to build shelters for members of a vision.

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I seem to stand alone in my position that it probably wasn't a vision.
Even though some of our Bible translations use the word in the passage.
The controversy seems to surround whether we can speak to the dead.
Most say, "No." therefore it had to be a vision.
Jesus was with the disciples for 40 days after his resurrection. Dead or alive? (or both) ???

But I see some evidence that indicates to me that it wasn't a vision.
- The immersive quality of the experience is more dreamlike than a vision.
- The text says that Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
- Peter offered to build three shelters.
- The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
- The disciples asked whether this was the appearance of Elijah that was prophesied.

Matthew 17:1-13

Mark 9:1-13

Luke 9:28-36

What are your thoughts?

[

My thoughts are, @St. SteVen, that I agree with you. It definitely was a real experience, to which Peter later testifies:

2Pe 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,”
2Pe 1:18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The thing that convinced me that it wasn't a vision, was that Peter offered to build three shelters.
You don't offer to build shelters for members of a vision.

According to the beliefs of both Moses and Elijah, (and taught by Jesus himself), where were the dead after they died? Jewish belief did not support the existence of immortal souls because the dead were not alive somewhere else (Eccl 9:5, 10).…the dead slept in “Sheol” (translated as “the grave” in the Jewish Tanakh). Jews believed in resurrection, which was a restoration of life rather than a continuation of it in some other realm.

The idea of immortal souls is pagan. There is no conscious life after death and the Jews were forbidden in God’s law to try to contact the spirit realm (Deut 18:9-12).…which is a place where spirits dwelt, but not the spirits of the dead. It was the abode of angels who dwelt in the presence of God. There are only two kinds of angels mentioned in the Bible….faithful ones and unfaithful ones who followed satan into rebellion…these became demons.
What was Satan’s first lie?…. “You surely will not die”…..and immortality of the soul merely perpetuated his lie and this idea permeates all false religion. It is the demons who impersonate the dead and mislead those who do not believe what the Bible says about death.….It is the opposite of life.

Jesus demonstrated what the resurrection was when his friend Lazarus died….he restored his life. (John 11:11-14) Jesus said he was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken” him.
But if Lazarus had gone to heaven to a better life, what was the point of bringing him back to the trials of this life, only to die again later? That makes no sense. Lazarus said nothing about where he had been, because he was “asleep” as Jesus said he was.

Moses and Elijah were still in their graves awaiting what they expected….a resurrection.

Not only that but in the transfiguration, Jesus was fulfilling a promise he made just days earlier….
Prior to ascending the mountain, Jesus had asked all of his disciples: “Who are men saying that I am?”…Peter replied: “You are the Christ.” At that Jesus told them that he would die and be resurrected, (Mark 8:27-31) though he also promised that some of his disciples would “not taste death at all” until they had first seen “the Son of man coming in his kingdom,” or “the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Matt 16:28; Mark 9:1) This promise was fulfilled “six days later” when Peter, James, and John accompanied Jesus into “a lofty mountain” where the transfiguration took place.

What did the transfiguration depict? It showed Jesus Christ transformed in his physical appearance to a glorious heavenly being whose radiance stunned the apostles. With Jesus were the two men who represented the very foundations of God’s Kingdom…..there before the apostles was the Kingdom of God…with its King (Messiah) Jesus Christ, Elijah representing the Prophets, and Moses representing the Law….all of which should have led natural Israel to accept Jesus as their King and Redeemer…..but they rejected him, losing their place in the Kingdom, and being replaced by another “Israel”…”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) made up of faithful Jews and gentile disciples of Jesus Christ.

The fact that it was a “vision”, is what Jesus called it….and that it was a vision beheld by all present, simply meant that they were all granted the same vision. It wasn’t a dream, but an experience. These privileged disciples had seen Christ in his kingdom glory, as he promised.

Why is there a need to complicate something that was representative?…..it was the demonstration of a promise….not something literal. Moses and Elijah were not resurrected before Jesus, because no one went to heaven before he did. (John 3:13)

 

[St. SteVen]

According to the beliefs of both Moses and Elijah, (and taught by Jesus himself), where were the dead after they died? Jewish belief did not support the existence of immortal souls because the dead were not alive somewhere else (Eccl 9:5, 10).…the dead slept in “Sheol” (translated as “the grave” in the Jewish Tanakh). Jews believed in resurrection, which was a restoration of life rather than a continuation of it in some other realm.

A search on the term "realm of the dead" in the NIV yields 29 references.
One is in Ecclesiastes, and two of them are in Acts chapter 2.

Unconscious nonexistence? Nope.

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

A search on the term "realm of the dead" in the NIV yields 29 references.

The NIV is not exactly the best translation to base anything on…..”Sheol” is “the realm of the dead”…the place where ALL dead people end up..…asleep….knowing nothing….unable to think or to engage in any activity.
In the grave, there is only silence. (Psalm 115:17)

In the Jewish Tanakh, Eccl 9:5, 10 says…
“5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . . .10 Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

With sin on board, we humans have no advantage over the animals who were never promised everlasting life…..
Eccl 3:19-20 Tanakh….”For there is a happening for the children of men, and there is a happening for the beasts-and they have one happening-like the death of this one is the death of that one, and all have one spirit, and the superiority of man over beast is nought, for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all came from the dust, and all return to the dust.”

Isn’t this what God told Adam? (Gen 3:19) Was he ever told about “heaven or hell”?

The dead are dead….the Bible does not say that the dead are alive until they are resurrected….
Immortality of the soul is not a Bible teaching, but is an accepted belief throughout all false religion. Guess who is the author of all of them? A liar!

Unconscious nonexistence? Nope.

Yep, sorry but you have no scriptural backup for an immortal soul as these two words do not exist side by side in a single passage of scripture…..it is read into scripture by those who want it to be true.

Isaiah 14:9 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir
to meet you at your coming;
it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—
all those who were leaders in the world;
it makes them rise from their thrones—
all those who were kings over the nations.

I’m glad you brought this up….because it is not a scripture supporting life after death…..the ancient Jews did not believe in immortal souls……if you read it in context you will see that it is figurative, almost comical….mocking.

This is about the demise of mighty Babylon…….So astonishing is her fall, that the grave itself reacts…..“Even Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in. At you it has awakened those impotent in death, all the goatlike leaders of the earth. It has made all the kings of the nations get up from their thrones. All of them speak up and say to you, ‘Have you yourself also been made weak like us? Is it to us that you have been made comparable? Down to Sheol your pride has been brought, the din of your stringed instruments. Beneath you, maggots are spread out as a couch; and worms are your covering.’” (Isaiah 14:9-11)

What a powerful image is created! It is as if the common grave of mankind were to wake up all those kings who preceded the Babylonian dynasty into death so that they can greet the newcomer. They mock the Babylonian ruling power, which is now helpless, lying on a bed of maggots instead of on a costly divan, covered with worms instead of expensive linens. Just desserts.

 

[soberxp]

Moses represented those who slept before the Resurrection and Elijah represented those who had not tasted death or slept in Grave.an actual appearance of Moses and Elijah.

But what I don't quite understand is whether John the Baptist is Elijah or whether John the Baptist represents a prophet like Elijah.

Was the Transfiguration of Jesus a vision?
It is between a vision and Real Realistic.
It's hard to explain this state.

 

[St. SteVen]

Was the Transfiguration of Jesus a vision?
It is between a vision and Real Realistic.
It's hard to explain this state.

The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
Sounds like they were there.

[

 

[soberxp]

The disciples fell on their faces in terror when they were surrounded by a cloud and heard God that Father speaking loudly.
Sounds like they were there.

[

vision:Visual Field
They do see and hear, but that doesn't mean everyone else sees and hears.
Of course, they were there.
For The disciples, God was there in their Visual Field.
For the others, God was not there in their Visual Field.
It's hard to describe in my poor English.

 

[soberxp]

Please share with us where Scripture tells us that Elijah didn’t die…..?

2 Kings 2: 1-8). Fire horse: Elijah was taken by fire horse and went up to heaven (2 Kings 2: 9-12).