BEFORE OR AFTER THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

[Doug]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Luke 12:32 KJV] 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The nations are in view in Matthew, but the believing remnant of Israel (the little flock) will enter into this kingdom; the Davidic kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God purposed to save the body of Christ by the gospel of Christ, from before the foundation of the world; to bless us in heavenly places, to be holy and blameless before him in love.

Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ. One is to have determined to save (by the gospel of the grace of God) the body of Christ before the foundation of the world to a position in heavenly places; the other is to save the remnant of Israel (by the gospel of the kingdom) to enter the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth, from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father loved Christ; and by his unmeasurable grace and kindness, we as being in Christ and members of his body, loved us before the foundation of the world.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

God purposed to save the believing remnant of Israel to enter the Davidic kingdom on earth from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God purposed to save the body of Christ by the gospel of Christ, from before the foundation of the world; to bless us in heavenly places, to be holy and blameless before him in love.

Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ. One is to have determined to save (by the gospel of the grace of God) the body of Christ before the foundation of the world to a position in heavenly places; the other is to save the remnant of Israel (by the gospel of the kingdom) to enter the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth, from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father loved Christ; and by his unmeasurable grace and kindness, we as being in Christ and members of his body, loved us before the foundation of the world.

It is both!

The kingdom was promised when the world was founded and the people were chosen before God created the world!

 

[Doug]

It is both!

The kingdom was promised when the world was founded and the people were chosen before God created the world!

I find no scripture that says the people were chosen before the foundation of the world to enter the kingdom on earth.,

 

[David Lamb]

I find no scripture that says the people were chosen before the foundation of the world to enter the kingdom on earth.,

Before I reply and make a fool of myself through misunderstanding, may I ask you to say what you meant by "chosen before the foundation of the world to enter the kingdom on earth."? The passage in question, addressed to Christians, doesn't mention a kingdom:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:3-5 NKJV)

 

[Doug]

Before I reply and make a fool of myself through misunderstanding, may I ask you to say what you meant by "chosen before the foundation of the world to enter the kingdom on earth."? The passage in question, addressed to Christians, doesn't mention a kingdom:

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,” (Eph 1:3-5 NKJV)

I would but I didnt say that Ronald Nolette said: it in post#3
I was only saying I dont know of scripture that says God chose those who would enter the kingdom on earth before the foundation of the world as he asserted
As the verse you cited says we the body of Christ were chosen..........this is not individual selection.....it God determining on what basis he would save the body of Christ
The body of Christ is not given the kingdom on earth but rather we are given the heavenly places

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I find no scripture that says the people were chosen before the foundation of the world to enter the kingdom on earth.,

Well I thought you were just talking about the kingdom in general, both heaven and earth.

The only verse I see that shows particular people were in mind is this:

Matthew 25:34

King James Version

​

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

He specifies the sheep in Matt. 25 which given gods omniscience presupposes He knew who He was preparing the millennial kingdom for.

 

[ScottA]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[Luke 12:32 KJV] 32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

The nations are in view in Matthew, but the believing remnant of Israel (the little flock) will enter into this kingdom; the Davidic kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God purposed to save the body of Christ by the gospel of Christ, from before the foundation of the world; to bless us in heavenly places, to be holy and blameless before him in love.

Therefore, seeing that there is a difference between before and from, we can determine that God has made a distinction between believing Israel and the church, the body of Christ. One is to have determined to save (by the gospel of the grace of God) the body of Christ before the foundation of the world to a position in heavenly places; the other is to save the remnant of Israel (by the gospel of the kingdom) to enter the prophetic Davidic kingdom on earth, from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

The Father loved Christ; and by his unmeasurable grace and kindness, we as being in Christ and members of his body, loved us before the foundation of the world.

There are two DIFFERENT contexts spoken of in the scriptures regarding "before" or "from the foundation of the world."

The one context is with consideration to the ways and terms of this world, and the other context is not of this world, but of God. In other words, there are different terms by which the descriptions of different passages, depending on whether it pertains to life in this world, or life with God. One is a context of "time", while the other is not, but is eternal.

As a result, the one context can confuse the other context. For this same reason, all scripture, must be "rightly divided."

In addition [however], whether "before" or "from" (the foundation of the world), each passage is applicable to both DIFFERENT contexts, as this worldly context is in fact an "image", or "parable", or revelation of what is ultimately true with God and eternity.

All of which should be understood as what is true with God, simply--only seemingly speaking of two different times, when actually they are not. It is just that the revelation of what is true with God only comes to us "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little." Meaning, there is no actual difference in what is true, except that each person only comes to the knowledge of it, "but each one in his own order." Which is to say ALL THINGS "were" "from" "before the foundation of the world."

 

[Lambano]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ... The nations are in view in Matthew, but the believing remnant of Israel (the little flock) will enter into this kingdom; the Davidic kingdom was prepared from the foundation of the world.

I see something different.

1. Those being judged here and who inherit the kingdom are explicitly Gentiles. The word used is "Ethne", which is the Greek word for "Gentiles" and should be translated so. Will non-believing Jews be treated as Gentiles in the Judgment? Jesus's parable of the Shrewd Manager in Luke 16:1-13 hints that it may be so.

2. The Son of Man gives them the Kingdom explicitly based on their works, and the works the Son of Man is looking for is how they treated those whom the King calls "these the least of my brothers and sisters". I have to conclude these are non-believing Gentiles (and non-believing Jews?) who treated Jesus's people and the poor and the outcasts and anyone else whom Jesus might identify as His brother or sister with compassion. This may not line up with Pauline "justification by faith alone" theology. Yet, Jesus is Lord (lest we forget), He is sovereign (anybody want to argue that?), and He can let into His Kingdom anybody He wants.

 

[Lambano]

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love...

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I observe here that in being "in Him"; in being part of Christ's body by faith; in being a part of the one whom God chose and loved "before the foundation of the world", we are also considered "God's chosen people". This is the Covenantal reading of these passages and stands in opposition to any Calvinist predestination schemes.

Likewise, I must object to the claim that our Jewish brothers and sisters who believe in Messiah Jesus are not also considered part of "the body of Christ". Do not amputate parts of the Body of Christ! Paul is quite clear on that!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. ... 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. (Romans 11:13, 14, 15-21)

As to who will reign with Messiah in the Resurrection Kingdom (if indeed this is the correct understanding of what is to come in the self-contradictory hot mess that is the world of eschatological schemes), Jesus's words to Peter apply to us also: "What is that to you? You, follow me!"

 

[David Lamb]

I would but I didnt say that Ronald Nolette said: it in post#3

That's strange - I have just looked again at Post 3, and its writer is you, Doug. Anyway, I apologise for the misunderstanding which somehow has crept in.

I was only saying I dont know of scripture that says God chose those who would enter the kingdom on earth before the foundation of the world as he asserted
As the verse you cited says we the body of Christ were chosen..........this is not individual selection.....it God determining on what basis he would save the body of Christ
The body of Christ is not given the kingdom on earth but rather we are given the heavenly places

Yes I agree that it is not an earthly kingdom.

 

[Behold]

It is both!

The kingdom was promised when the world was founded and the people were chosen before God created the world!

You misquoted the verse as all deceived Calvinist TULIPs will do, every time.

See, the chosen are chosen "in Christ" as that determines it......or not.

The Chosen "in Christ" are pre-determined, not to be chosen.. but to be "conformed into the image of Christ""".......AFTER they are born again, which places them "in Christ",.. and that is determined by THEM.. as they are the BELIEVER, according to their Free will, or NOT.

 

[Doug]

I see something different.

1. Those being judged here and who inherit the kingdom are explicitly Gentiles. The word used is "Ethne", which is the Greek word for "Gentiles" and should be translated so. Will non-believing Jews be treated as Gentiles in the Judgment? Jesus's parable of the Shrewd Manager in Luke 16:1-13 hints that it may be so.

2. The Son of Man gives them the Kingdom explicitly based on their works, and the works the Son of Man is looking for is how they treated those whom the King calls "these the least of my brothers and sisters". I have to conclude these are non-believing Gentiles (and non-believing Jews?) who treated Jesus's people and the poor and the outcasts and anyone else whom Jesus might identify as His brother or sister with compassion. This may not line up with Pauline "justification by faith alone" theology. Yet, Jesus is Lord (lest we forget), He is sovereign (anybody want to argue that?), and He can let into His Kingdom anybody He wants.

In the millennial kingdom on earth Jesus will govern the nations from Jerusalem..........these nations are the Gentile nations who enter the kingdom based on how they treated Israel.............Israel inherits the kingdom based on keeping the convent and rejecting the mark.........this is a physical salvation........old testament saints and those new testament saints in Christ will be resurrected into the kingdom
For eternal life they had to believe on the name of Jesus they had to believe he is Christ the Son of God

 

[Doug]

I observe here that in being "in Him"; in being part of Christ's body by faith; in being a part of the one whom God chose and loved "before the foundation of the world",

Right

 

[Doug]

we are also considered "God's chosen people". This is the Covenantal reading of these passages and stands in opposition to any Calvinist predestination schemes

I cant say we are a chosen people.....that Israel....but yes we are chosen because of the election of God who purposed that those in Crist will be justified unto eternal life.......its not an individual selection by God to who he saves or not

 

[Doug]

Likewise, I must object to the claim that our Jewish brothers and sisters who believe in Messiah Jesus are not also considered part of "the body of Christ". Do not amputate parts of the Body of Christ! Paul is quite clear on that!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. ... 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. (Romans 11:13, 14, 15-21)

The broken off branches are unbelieving Jews........those grafted in are believing Gentiles such as the Gentiles who believed Peter's preaching in Acts 10:45.......they arent in the body of Christ but the new testament church which believed only on his name

 

[Doug]

That's strange - I have just looked again at Post 3, and its writer is you, Doug. Anyway, I apologise for the misunderstanding which somehow has crept in.

whoops it was post #2..........no need to apologize

 

[Doug]

Yes I agree that it is not an earthly kingdom.

The new testament church, the believing remnant of Israel inherits the earthly Davidic kingdom.....the body of Christ the heavenly places

 

[Ronald Nolette]

There are two DIFFERENT contexts spoken of in the scriptures regarding "before" or "from the foundation of the world."

The one context is with consideration to the ways and terms of this world, and the other context is not of this world, but of God. In other words, there are different terms by which the descriptions of different passages, depending on whether it pertains to life in this world, or life with God. One is a context of "time", while the other is not, but is eternal.

As a result, the one context can confuse the other context. For this same reason, all scripture, must be "rightly divided."

In addition [however], whether "before" or "from" (the foundation of the world), each passage is applicable to both DIFFERENT contexts, as this worldly context is in fact an "image", or "parable", or revelation of what is ultimately true with God and eternity.

All of which should be understood as what is true with God, simply--only seemingly speaking of two different times, when actually they are not. It is just that the revelation of what is true with God only comes to us "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little." Meaning, there is no actual difference in what is true, except that each person only comes to the knowledge of it, "but each one in his own order." Which is to say ALL THINGS "were" "from" "before the foundation of the world."

now if you only could speak an English normal people speak, we may understand you better.

 

[ScottA]

now if you only could speak an English normal people speak, we may understand you better.

"Which is to say, ALL THINGS "were" "from" "before the foundation of the world."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"Which is to say, ALL THINGS "were" "from" "before the foundation of the world."

You have a terrible habit of speaking like some mystic guru. this is why in the past I have had to ask you to clarify or verify many of your statments. It almost seems like you wish to sound vague, mystic to avoid being pinned down on many of your statements.

BTW: You never answered yes or no in the past. Do you believe in transubstantiation? YES or NO.