Looking realistically at ourselves.

[GodsGrace]

Paul condoning old fashioned culture (men is boss) to avoid division in church. It was pretty chaotic in the Corinth church.

I had stated that culture has a part in hermeneutics...as indeed it does.

 

[GodsGrace]

Paul said women can't speak in church. The question is whether or not we are required to obey Paul.

We have one boss - Jesus.

What did Jesus say about women speaking in church?

 

[Bob Estey]

Paul condoning old fashioned culture (men is boss) to avoid division in church. It was pretty chaotic in the Corinth church.

So when Paul said women can't speak in a church, he really didn't mean it? Can we say that about the rest of the Bible, also?

 

[Bob Estey]

What did Jesus say about women speaking in church?

I don't remember Jesus ever saying anything about women speaking in church. I do remember God putting a woman, Deborah, in charge of Israel.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't remember Jesus ever saying anything about women speaking in church. I do remember God putting a woman, Deborah, in charge of Israel.

Exactly.
Not EVERYTHING that Jesus taught is written down.
The bible is not the Qur'an. Thankfully.

Jesus picked only men to be Apostles.
The Church is the bride. Brides are female....
So elders and all those that were authorized by Jesus to carry on
His church must be male.

There was something going on that made it necessary for Paul to make the
statement about women. We cannot know every little detail of what happened
2 thousand years ago.

You can believe Paul or not...you'll still have all the information you need for salvation..
however, every writer of the NT has added something important to the message of Jesus
or the letter would not have been included in the NT.

This will be my last post on this since it has nothing to do with soteriology and that's my main concern.

 

[Lizbeth]

According to the Bible, women can't speak in a church. As long as they aren't doing that, I see no problem.

By the way, I think Paul was mistaken - I think it's okay for women to speak in a church. There is a lot of work that needs to get done in a church - how can it be done if women aren't allowed to speak?

Exactly. So we need to understand what Paul meant when he wrote that. Don't forget they didn't even have church buildings in those days, they met in homes, from house to house. Surely he couldn't have meant that women weren't supposed to literally ever speak in their own homes or the homes of their brothers/sisters in the Lord. No, he was talking about not being disruptive or usurping authority during the church gatherings/meetings. Women even were allowed to pray and prophesy in the meetings, but were expected to wear a head covering.

 

[Lizbeth]

Can you tell me what this means?
I NEVER SAID YOU STOLE MONEY.

The only way we can possibly know what Paul meant was to study the culture of the day.
I did post briefly on this.
In fact, most churches do not allow women to teach/become priests, etc.
To teach priests, that is.
They can teach other women or children.

Jesus sent out men...not women.
But Mary Magdalene was prominent and was the first to get to the empty tomb.
This must mean something too.

So in Matthew it states to pluck out an eye rather than to sin.
Is that literal too?

Amen. It's useful to understand the biblical context of what was written, as well as the cultural context. And we for sure need to seek the Holy Spirit for understanding. It's funny how we in the flesh and carnal mind tend to often see things "religiously" rather than being sort of grounded in reality.

 

[Lizbeth]

In the first century, Christians who learned directly from Jesus had to teach the same things they received. Those who learned from them, in turn, had to teach based on those same early teachings. Those were the received truths that had to be preached before the end.

When those truths were no longer the same because people began to speculate and philosophize on their own, trying to become teachers themselves instead of reviewing what they had already received, the church became corrupted. Religious arguments, sects, divisions, lies disguised as truth, struggles for power, etc. arose.

Jesus Christ said that he who does not gather with Him, scatters (Luke 11:23).

Have you ever wondered if spreading your own speculations, interpreting the Bible in your own particular and unique way, is actually scattering?

This to me gets into religious organizations and "succession of authority". Nobody "had" to or "has" to do anything...God works through our free will and doesn't generally force people to do or think according to His will. He knew beforehand that this was going to be messy. Jesus even foretold it: "Behold I send you out as sheep among wolves." I believe those that teach/preach should teach/preach based on having received and understood the truth by the Holy Spirit themselves personally, through the written word (since the original apostles are no longer here to teach and impart in person).......not based on "succession" of doctrine or authority, sanctioned by men and organizations, like corporate and legal systems of the world. Because the true born again church is not of this world and did not receive the spirit of the world, and we are admonished in scripture about remaining in the simplicity of Christ, not turn to the ways of the world and flesh. Our Head is Christ, by His Spirit, not a human head.

Yes, there are divisions created especially in forums where all we do is talk and argue.......but a lot of those divisions are of the flesh. We are only supposed to separate from others according to the criteria given in the bible, not based on our emotions of being offended that others aren't agreeing with relatively minor issues that we are arguing about. We should separate from those who bring false gospels, etc, but not over whether or not we should participate in Christmas celebrations or what day of the week we choose to gather and meet with the Lord. God gives us room to grow and learn without cutting us off, so we need to extend that grace to others. The bible teaches what circumstances warrant separating ourselves from.

 

[ProDeo]

So when Paul said women can't speak in a church, he really didn't mean it? Can we say that about the rest of the Bible, also?

What did the OT said about slaves?

What did Jesus say about slaves?

Was the abolishment of slavery a good or bad thing?

Think about it.

 

[Bob Estey]

Exactly.
Not EVERYTHING that Jesus taught is written down.
The bible is not the Qur'an. Thankfully.

Jesus picked only men to be Apostles.
The Church is the bride. Brides are female....
So elders and all those that were authorized by Jesus to carry on
His church must be male.

There was something going on that made it necessary for Paul to make the
statement about women. We cannot know every little detail of what happened
2 thousand years ago.

You can believe Paul or not...you'll still have all the information you need for salvation..
however, every writer of the NT has added something important to the message of Jesus
or the letter would not have been included in the NT.

This will be my last post on this since it has nothing to do with soteriology and that's my main concern.

Perhaps Jesus chose only men to be apostles to eliminate sexual temptations that might otherwise have arisen.

 

[Bob Estey]

Exactly. So we need to understand what Paul meant when he wrote that. Don't forget they didn't even have church buildings in those days, they met in homes, from house to house. Surely he couldn't have meant that women weren't supposed to literally ever speak in their own homes or the homes of their brothers/sisters in the Lord. No, he was talking about not being disruptive or usurping authority during the church gatherings/meetings. Women even were allowed to pray and prophesy in the meetings, but were expected to wear a head covering.

I think Paul was very clear:

"The women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak."

I just think he was wrong.

 

[Bob Estey]

What did the OT said about slaves?

What did Jesus say about slaves?

Was the abolishment of slavery a good or bad thing?

Think about it.

In the old days, people who carried a lot of debt sometimes sold themselves into slavery.

God was never wrong. Jesus was never wrong.

 

[ProDeo]

In the old days, people who carried a lot of debt sometimes sold themselves into slavery.

Like you say, sometimes, not the golden rule.

Ex 2:23 - During those many days the king of Egypt died, and the people of Israel groaned because of their slavery and cried out for help. Their cry for rescue from slavery came up to God.
Ex 2:24 - And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Ex 3:7 Then the LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings,
Ex 3:8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites,

That's God's real opinion about slavery.

----------

Deut 24:1 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
Deut 24:2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife,
Deut 24:3 and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,

Jesus -
Matt 19:5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
Matt 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Matt 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?”
Matt 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

The key word again is condone.

-------------------------------

1Sam 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah
1Sam 8:5 and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
1Sam 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
1Sam 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
1Sam 8:8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you.
1Sam 8:9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

The sad story Israel preferred a human king above God.

And God gave them what they wanted.

He condoned.

God was never wrong. Jesus was never wrong.

Absolutely

 

[Bob Estey]

Like you say, sometimes, not the golden rule.

Ex 2:23 - During those many days the king of Egypt died, and the people of Israel groaned because of their slavery and cried out for help. Their cry for rescue from slavery came up to God.
Ex 2:24 - And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Ex 3:7 Then the LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings,
Ex 3:8 and I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites,

That's God's real opinion about slavery.

----------

Deut 24:1 “When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
Deut 24:2 and if she goes and becomes another man's wife,
Deut 24:3 and the latter man hates her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter man dies, who took her to be his wife,

Jesus -
Matt 19:5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?
Matt 19:6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Matt 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?”
Matt 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Matt 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

The key word again is condone.

-------------------------------

1Sam 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah
1Sam 8:5 and said to him, “Behold, you are old and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint for us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
1Sam 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD.
1Sam 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Obey the voice of the people in all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them.
1Sam 8:8 According to all the deeds that they have done, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you.
1Sam 8:9 Now then, obey their voice; only you shall solemnly warn them and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”

The sad story Israel preferred a human king above God.

And God gave them what they wanted.

He condoned.



Absolutely

I don't remember the Lord ever telling people to enslave other people.

 

[ProDeo]

I don't remember the Lord ever telling people to enslave other people.

Exactly, so why did God gave laws and condoned slavery to a certain extend?

 

[Bob Estey]

Exactly, so why did God gave laws and condoned slavery to a certain extend?

I don't believe he ever condoned slavery. He simply was telling slaves how to deal with it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps Jesus chose only men to be apostles to eliminate sexual temptations that might otherwise have arisen.

Oh....I think the Apostles could have found women wherever they went.
Just like today.
Women seem to be all over the place.

 

[Bob Estey]

Oh....I think the Apostles could have found women wherever they went.
Just like today.
Women seem to be all over the place.

There's a difference between seeing women and working closely with them.

 

[amigo de christo]

So when Paul said women can't speak in a church, he really didn't mean it? Can we say that about the rest of the Bible, also?

Here is the only thing we can say . If its written in the letters , in the gospels , in the scriptures , in the bible
THEN we do heed it no matter how often and how much society changes .
For now matter how often the culture and times have changed , THE TRUTH DOES NOT , IT REMAINS THE TRUTH
and we are to live by the Words of the LORD , taking heed to the SPIRIT of the LORD .
This is a battle and in these final hours upon earth it has grown massively dark .
We must test any and all who do speak and write , who do teach and do speak
against what is LEFT for us in the bible to read and to learn . A massive apostacy has and is occuring
and many seem to now love a lie . The lie . And it will not save them .

 

[amigo de christo]

Oh....I think the Apostles could have found women wherever they went.
Just like today.
Women seem to be all over the place.

Yes Bob gave a real poor example . The truth is Both paul and peter
KNEW the reason .
And while women are used of GOD
and while its true they can prophesy and be co helpers
THEY cannot lead the church . They cannot teach and usurp authority over the man .
But that dont mean they ought to just heed and trust in man either .
If any man who teaches , teaches an error , no man , no woman ought to heed such a one .
All must be tested and must be corrected if error be seen .
What i next type might seem hard to beleive , OR MAYBE NOT ,
but true it is , WE IN the last hours and time is running out . I suggest all get busy
doing the things of the LORD . While its true not all may be a teacher , a etc
WE all are a witness . AND IF our witness does not line up with the biblical truth
then its not coming of GOD . The witness itself IS TRUTH and TESTIFIES OF TRUTH .
We must all be on gaurd and more than ever we must continue to test
all , and to contend for the one true faith . A tidal wave of delusoin has and is crashing down upon this world
its even within christendom itself . Sad thing is it came from men claoked up in wool .
WE must stand firm to the end by the power of CHRIST and continue to test all and to be a true witness of CHRIST . `