JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[Titus]

@Titus, could you clarify-are you saying that in James chapter 2- faith is demonstrated through works? If so, I completely agree with you.


Hebrews 11:4-5
By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:8
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

J.

Absolutely.
James would never teach works apart from faith justifies.
James is teaching the kind of faith that God has always required of man i.e. an obedient faith.

I do not believe Biblical saving faith can be rightly defined as being alone or absent of desire in the heart of the believer to have given up his will in complete submission to Gods will.

Paul's conversion shows us the moment Jesus proved to him that He is his Messiah, Acts 9:4,
- he fell to the ground and heard a voice to him say, Saul, Saul, why do you persecutest Me
Who are You Lord, Saul asked
- I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, now get up and go into the city and you will be TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO

Paul immediately after coming to belief in Christ OBEYED JESUS. He did exactly as he was instructed.

Multiple examples of true Biblical faith always includes complete submission to Gods will.

Now I dont believe Paul was saved the moment he believed.
Ananias repeated to Paul Gods instruction (he preached the gospel to Paul) and Paul did exactly as he was told. So Paul recounts his own conversion as what took place in Acts 22:16,
- and now why are you waiting Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Paul's faith acted in obedience to Jesus' new testament gospel.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

 

[Johann]

Absolutely.
James would never teach works apart from faith justifies.
James is teaching the kind of faith that God has always required of man i.e. an obedient faith.

I do not believe Biblical saving faith can be rightly defined as being alone or absent of desire in the heart of the believer to have given up his will in complete submission to Gods will.

Paul's conversion shows us the moment Jesus proved to him that He is his Messiah, Acts 9:4,
- he fell to the ground and heard a voice to him say, Saul, Saul, why do you persecutest Me
Who are You Lord, Saul asked
- I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, now get up and go into the city and you will be TOLD WHAT YOU MUST DO

Paul immediately after coming to belief in Christ OBEYED JESUS. He did exactly as he was instructed.

Multiple examples of true Biblical faith always includes complete submission to Gods will.

Now I dont believe Paul was saved the moment he believed.
Ananias repeated to Paul Gods instruction (he preached the gospel to Paul) and Paul did exactly as he was told. So Paul recounts his own conversion as what took place in Acts 22:16,
- and now why are you waiting Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord

Paul's faith acted in obedience to Jesus' new testament gospel.
The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

I believe we are on the same page and thank you for the clarification.

Johann.

 

[mailmandan]

I always put in effort when you try to teach me.
I listen to what you post.

It's possible to hear and not understand. See and not perceive. Like the song goes, "..when you look up in the sky, you can see the stars and still not see the light."

Dan, I really believe you are unaware that when you teach on James chapter 2, you always demand that we accept James is a faith only salvationist.

Even after I explained to you multiple times what James means by "faith only" in this thread? You certainly hear and do not understand. See and do not perceive. You seem determined to demand that James is a works-salvationist who promotes salvation by faith and works. You have James teaching that we are justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6.

You set up your argument based on your presuppostional premise that James teaches we are saved by faith alone therefore we must look at what he says about works and justification through this premise.

Paul already clearly stated that we are saved by faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) apart from works and there are no contradictions in God's word. I already showed you where James said says/claims to have faith (James 2:14) and that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) I have looked at what he says about works and being justified through this premise. You error by giving the term "justified" a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous."

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

*Fits the context.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Strongs #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

*This is how we rightly divide the word of truth. *Hermeneutics.

And yes if your belief that James is a faith only salvationist is accurate then how you interpret James' teaching on works and justification has merit.

You continue to hear and not understand. See and not perceive.

See? This is all you do, give your belief system in James and demand that we presuppose this is who James is.

I read James 2 in context, and I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture (James 2:14; Romans 4:2-6) before reaching my belief system in James. I am more interested in the truth than I am in accommodating a biased church doctrine.

I told you already, DONT GIVE ME DANTHEMAILMAN'S INTERPRETATION OF WHAT JAMES IS SAYING.

YOU JUST DID THE EXACT THING I ASKED YOU NOT TO DO.

So, in other words, don't confuse you with the facts and only tell you what you want to hear. Got it.

If you want to convince me your exegesis has merit, then

Quote James teaching he is a faith onlyist for salvation.

James is not a faith onlyist per James 2:24, which is an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone/barren of works (James 2:14) and neither am I. NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH FAITH THAT TRUSTS IN JESUS CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. (Romans 4:5; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:6) This kind of faith made us alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5) created in Christ Jesus which results in producing good works. (Ephesians 2:10) We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. Let me know if you still don't get it.

It does not matter how James words it. Just quote the verse any verse that indicates James is a believer in faith alone salvation.

Don't confuse what James means by "faith alone" (bare profession of faith that remains alone/barren of works) with what believers mean by faith alone (faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation).

Leave your own words out of it.
Heres an example, just his words Dan,

James 1:21,
- so get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls

What happened to James 2? Since you teach performance-based works salvation, I can imagine how you interpret James 1:21. If we continue to embrace filth and evil in our lives, then we will not humbly accept the word of God. The implanted word must take root in our hearts in order for it to save our souls. Our hearts must be properly prepared to receive the word. We have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (1 Peter 1:23)

Simply quote him like I just did.

Simply quoting him does not mean you properly interpreted him.

I dont want you to go through the work again of posting a long explanation to me in vain.

My explanation will be in vain because it will just continue to just go right over your head.

If you dont just give me James' own writing in your next post I'm not going to put in the effort and read through it.
So, for your sake dont waste your time because I'm done reading your explanation on what you think James is saying.

So, you are very satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts. Got it.

If you can quote James saying he believes or teaches faith alone salvation

I already thoroughly explained this to you numerous times but you just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

I'll repent of my error and give my life to your supposed gospel of salvation, the gospel you believe is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

I hope and pray that you will repent of your error and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

We will be brothers in Christ, I will come meet you in person to thank you for playing a part in bringing me out of eternal damnation into Christ's blessed forgiveness.

Praise the Lord! That will be a day to rejoice!

 

[Titus]

I'm not guilty of your blood Dan.
I wish I could say I'm not guilty of the blood of any man but that would be a lie.
I've failed to share Jesus with many others where God has given me opportunity.
May Gods mercy and grace save me on the day of judgement.

Acts 20:26,
- therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men

Paul's statement is terrifying to me knowing how many people God has given me to be His messenger to share His saving gospel yet I was silent.
May God have mercy on me in the day of judgement.
May God save me by His grace.

Few I respect but I respect you Dan.
I dearly love you and like you.
I love everyone but few I like.

You have many good qualities.
I never doubt you are faithful to your beliefs.
I believe you strive to serve God to the best of your knowledge.
I believe you are sincere not only in word but also in your deeds.
I would love for you to be my mailman knowing you would not steel from me.
I believe I could trust you with my life if I was in danger, you would fight for me.

You are a serious minded man. You are not "wiishy washy".
Many on here are silly. They are quick to respond without meditating on how they speak to others.
You are genuine. You genuinely want me to be saved.

I regard you as my friend.

And this is why you hurt me so deeply, because I so desperately want to be with you for all eternity.
I dont hug other men. I dont show emotion to other men often.
Only in a tradegy like a death do I hug a man.
This is the way I was raised. It has nothing to do with the church. Many in the church show alot of emotion. It's my upbringing in my family.
You get me emotional Dan.
Not because you put doubt in my mind.
Its because I hate meeting good men that I cannot help.
I pray to God that some day we will be brothers in Christ !!!!
I love you.

You seem determined to demand that James is a works-salvationist who promotes salvation by faith and works.

I'm not determined to promote James as a works salvationist as I don't believe he is.
I don't believe there is such a man of God found anywhere in the Bible that is a works based salvationist!!!
And you accuse me of not being able to learn?
When will you learn Dan my REAL beliefs?

You error by giving the term "justified" a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous."

I've given James opportunity to discuss his explanation in this OP
James gives examples of men and womens justification and by James' choice of specific times they were justified you can deduce from the account of Abraham's obedient sacrifice of his son, that justification in this context was before God. Abraham was justified in Gods eyes.

Its obvious to me, you don't see it and I can't help you.

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith

We agree partly, James is showing in the story of Abraham the evidence of his FAITH.
James is teaching faith based salvation not works based salvation.
James teaches faith rightly defined obeys God and this kind of faith is the only faith that justifies.

James is not using the word justified in James 2:24 as accounted as righteous or said another way made right in the sight of God?

Ok, let's use you interpretation and apply that to James' use of Abraham's sacrifice

So according to your no obedience no works based system....

When Abraham was about to obey God and sacrifice his son Abraham could have stopped!!!
And said "God, I will not do this, i will not sacrifice my son"
Therefore based on your theology Abraham STILL WOULD BE ACCOUNTED AS RIGHTEOUS IN GODS EYES BASED ON HIS BELIEF ALONE.

Nonsense

Abraham could not be justified before God if he refused to do the works God gave him to do.

You cannot separate belief from obedience Dan and claim the belief alone justifies man.
James NEVER taught what you teach!!!

(says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

You will never understand works because you try to use Romans chapter 4 to represent the works James is teaching in James chapter 2.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME WORKS DAN, YOU ARE TAKING WORKS IN BOTH CHAPTERS OUT OF CONTEXT

Romans 4 is meritorious works. Paul is teaching on works of merit that cannot save anyone.
Abraham had no works that earned him salvation. That is Paul's point in Romans 4.

James teaches works of obedience.
Abraham did have works of obedience and these works made Abraham's faith complete/perfect.
This is the faith all must have to be justified before God.

You failed.
You did not quote James teaching salvation by faith absent of obedient works.
I knew you could not simply quote James.
Why dont you see that is a ENORMOUS problem with your interpretation of the book of James.

You don't see it because you are blind.

If I could not read my doctrine from James' mouth/writings but had to be told what James is saying by someone else, rather than just reading it in the text.
I WOULD ABANDON MY BELIEF IMMEDIATELY.

All you do is explain away what James is saying.

I'm done responding to your think so's your opinions your churches traditions on the book of James.
I'll get my understanding from James himself not from another man telling me how I ought to interpret what James is saying.

 

[Titus]

Matthew 7:21,
- Not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not guilty of your blood Dan.
I wish I could say I'm not guilty of the blood of any man but that would be a lie.
I've failed to share Jesus with many others where God has given me opportunity.
May Gods mercy and grace save me on the day of judgement.

Acts 20:26,
- therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men

Paul's statement is terrifying to me knowing how many people God has given me to be His messenger to share His saving gospel yet I was silent.
May God have mercy on me in the day of judgement.
May God save me by His grace.

Few I respect but I respect you Dan.
I dearly love you and like you.
I love everyone but few I like.

You have many good qualities.
I never doubt you are faithful to your beliefs.
I believe you strive to serve God to the best of your knowledge.
I believe you are sincere not only in word but also in your deeds.
I would love for you to be my mailman knowing you would not steel from me.
I believe I could trust you with my life if I was in danger, you would fight for me.

You are a serious minded man. You are not "wiishy washy".
Many on here are silly. They are quick to respond without meditating on how they speak to others.
You are genuine. You genuinely want me to be saved.

I regard you as my friend.

And this is why you hurt me so deeply, because I so desperately want to be with you for all eternity.
I dont hug other men. I dont show emotion to other men often.
Only in a tradegy like a death do I hug a man.
This is the way I was raised. It has nothing to do with the church. Many in the church show alot of emotion. It's my upbringing in my family.
You get me emotional Dan.
Not because you put doubt in my mind.
Its because I hate meeting good men that I cannot help.
I pray to God that some day we will be brothers in Christ !!!!
I love you.

That was deep. I hope and pray to God that someday we will be brothers in Christ. I have love for you as well. (John 13:34)

I'm not determined to promote James as a works salvationist as I don't believe he is.

Then why do you interpret James 2:24 to mean man is "accounted as righteous" by works? You also cite James 2:22 to mean that faith is incomplete to save until after works are produced. I've had discussions with other folks who attend the CoC who cite James 2:24 this way - You see that a person is justified/saved by works and not by faith alone. That culminates in salvation by faith AND works in contradiction to what Paul said in (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

I don't believe there is such a man of God found anywhere in the Bible that is a works-based salvationist!!!

So, Paul was just wasting his breath in (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). Anyone who believes that we are saved by faith AND works (even if it's only works in part) is a works-based salvationist. I was once in a discussion with someone else who attends the CoC who made this statement to me - "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us."

And you accuse me of not being able to learn?
When will you learn Dan my REAL beliefs?

I understand your real beliefs, Titus. Don't forget that I at one time had temporarily attended the CoC several years ago so I understand how they try to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. I also understand their absolute obsession with water baptism.

I've given James opportunity to discuss his explanation in this OP
James gives examples of men and womens justification and by James' choice of specific times they were justified you can deduce from the account of Abraham's obedient sacrifice of his son, that justification in this context was before God. Abraham was justified in Gods eyes.

In what "sense" was Abraham justified in Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3? In what "sense" was Abraham justified in James 2:21?

Its obvious to me, you don't see it and I can't help you.

I see and understand that Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith "apart from works" in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and that Abraham was shown to be righteous by works (James 2:21) many years later in Genesis 22 when he offered up Isaac on the altar.

We agree partly, James is showing in the story of Abraham the evidence of his FAITH.

Only partly? So, you believe that works are the evidence of faith, but you also believe that works are an integral part of faith as well. I've heard folks who attend the CoC say that and sum it up as we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Isn't that what you believe?

James is teaching faith based salvation not works based salvation.

Amen! But you don't seem to fully agree with that. You have works at the back door of salvation through faith, not works.

James teaches faith rightly defined obeys God and this kind of faith is the only faith that justifies.

Here comes the "shoehorn." Genuine faith results in obedience/works but you redefine faith to actually "include" works which culminates in salvation by faith and works. You re-define faith to INCLUDE works, just as all works-salvationists do, which explains a lot of your confusion. Roman Catholics make the same error. Check out this statement below from a Roman Catholic who I was once in a discussion with:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

Roman Catholics basically teach that we are saved by faith "infused" with works and I hear folks who attend the CoC say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works. Both groups redefine faith to "include" works and end up trying to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) I already shared this with you back in in post #383 back in 2023 from the link below:

A Test Of Reading Comprehension and Honesty

Water baptism is not a work of God my friend I have asked you repeatedly to contact multiple Greek scholars and ask them what baptism is Colossians 2:12. There is a consensus that it is water baptism where God works His power. You would rather believe your church doctrine over the best Greek...

www.christianityboard.com

James is not using the word justified in James 2:24 as accounted as righteous or said another way made right in the sight of God?

The term "justified" in James 2:24 either means accounted as righteous or shown to be righteous. I believe the latter. What say you?

Ok, let's use you interpretation and apply that to James' use of Abraham's sacrifice

So according to your no obedience no works based system....

I don't promote no obedience. That is a typical straw man argument made by works-salvationists. I just put acts of obedience/works in their proper place. Subsequent to being "accounted as righteous" by faith. (Romans 4:2-6)

When Abraham was about to obey God and sacrifice his son Abraham could have stopped!!!
And said "God, I will not do this, i will not sacrifice my son"
Therefore based on your theology Abraham STILL WOULD BE ACCOUNTED AS RIGHTEOUS IN GODS EYES BASED ON HIS BELIEF ALONE.

Abraham was already accounted as righteous in God's eyes based on his faith in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. If Abraham would have refused to sacrifice his son, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.

 

[mailmandan]

Nonsense

Abraham could not be justified before God if he refused to do the works God gave him to do.

Abraham was already justified (accounted as righteous) before God based on his faith before he did the work of offering up Isaac on the altar many years later in Genesis 22. Since Abraham had authentic faith, he would not have refused to do the works God gave him to do. It's all about works with you. You seem to turn the story of Abraham into salvation by works at the back door - "initially saved by faith then continued to remain saved by works." I call that "type 2 works salvation."

You cannot separate belief from obedience Dan and claim the belief alone justifies man.
James NEVER taught what you teach!!!

There it is! Busted! By this statement above you are saying that obedience/works is an integral part of faith and that we are saved by both faith and works. Roman Catholics make the same error. Only the right kind of belief saves and that is belief that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Not to be confused with a bare/empty profession of belief/faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14)

You seem to believe that all belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp a deeper belief/faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation which also explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation.

You will never understand works because you try to use Romans chapter 4 to represent the works James is teaching in James chapter 2.

THEY ARE NOT THE SAME WORKS DAN, YOU ARE TAKING WORKS IN BOTH CHAPTERS OUT OF CONTEXT

Romans 4 is meritorious works. Paul is teaching on works of merit that cannot save anyone.
Abraham had no works that earned him salvation. That is Paul's point in Romans 4.

Roman Catholics use this same faulty logic in their attempts to "get around" the truth in Romans 4 as well. That faulty logic culminates in saved by "these" works (works of obedience) and just not "those" works (works of merit) but that argument is bogus. Any works that we "add" to salvation through faith would be works of merit because then we would no longer be saved through faith based on the merits of Christ's finished work of redemption alone but also on the merits of our works.

Paul has made it clear in Scripture that we are not saved by works in general. In Titus 3:5, Paul clearly stated that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. In 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul clearly stated that He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.. *NOWHERE in the Bible does Paul state that we are saved "by" works of any kind (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

You sound like the other CoC member that I quoted earlier in this post - "It is works of obedience and not works of the law or works of merit that help save us." How much help does Christ need to save you? How many supplements does it take?

James teaches works of obedience.

Of course. Why would he teach works of disobedience?

Abraham did have works of obedience and these works made Abraham's faith complete/perfect.

Complete/perfect in what sense? Faith made perfect or complete by works means to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

This is the faith all must have to be justified before God.

Salvation by faith and works is what you teach. Man is saved/justified/accounted as righteous by faith, not works, (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9) and man is justified/shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24) You fail to rightly divide the word of truth.

You failed.

I have not failed because James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

You did not quote James teaching salvation by faith absent of obedient works.

What part of "James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God" (Romans 4:2-3) don't you understand?

I knew you could not simply quote James.

I have simply quoted James. It's not about simply quoting him but properly interpreting him and you failed.

Why dont you see that is a ENORMOUS problem with your interpretation of the book of James.

I have no enormous problem with my interpretation of the book of James which is in perfect harmony with the book of Romans.

You don't see it because you are blind.

That statement is the epitome of irony. Speaking of blind, Paul explains why people do not believe the gospel. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) You need a new set of bifocals to read Scripture with which only the Holy Spirit can provide. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)

If I could not read my doctrine from James' mouth/writings but had to be told what James is saying by someone else, rather than just reading it in the text.
I WOULD ABANDON MY BELIEF IMMEDIATELY.

All you do is explain away what James is saying.

It's you who has explained away what Paul said in Romans 4:2-6 for the sake of upholding your misinterpretation of what James is saying.

I'm done responding to your think so's your opinions your churches traditions on the book of James.

LOL! I can see that your CoC indoctrination runs very deep and that you will be one tough nut to crack! But with God all things are possible.

I'll get my understanding from James himself not from another man telling me how I ought to interpret what James is saying.

Proverbs 27:17 - As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. But unfortunately, you refuse to be sharpened.

Once again, man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

THAT SUMS IT RIGHT UP. You have been served. Works salvation is NO SALVATION AT ALL.

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 7:21,
- Not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
but he that DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER IN HEAVEN

What is God's will for us to BECOME saved? Not "lip service" confession of Jesus as Lord (Matthew 7:21) and works salvation. (Matthew 7:22) John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Not to be confused with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved. 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

 

[Titus]

If Abraham would have refused to sacrifice his son, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case

Yes, but more specifically a lack of SAVING faith.
Not a complete lack of faith as James teaches there is more than just one kind of faith,

James 2:19,
- You believe that there is one God you do well, even the demons believe and tremble

There is a faith seperate from obedience taught in the Scriptures and it cannot justify.
Your faith has no works, therefore no obedience and that is the faith that you claim saves.

Then why do you interpret James 2:24 to mean man is "accounted as righteous" by works

What works is James talking about Dan? Answer: Works of a mans faith.
You try and say over here is faith and over here Is works.
You dont see that James is teaching Abraham's works is his faith in action, DOING.
THE DOING OF FAITH.
Faith that does nothing is dead.

I see and understand that Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith "apart from works" in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

James teaches the opposite about Abraham's faith.
You claim Abraham was accounted righteous before God WITH NO WORKS OF OBEDIENCE, Faith alone.
That is NOT what James teaches. Why do you try and force James to say Abraham was justified without obedience to God?
Because you are blind.

You have proved my point.

You are teaching Abraham was justified apart from obeying God by sacrificing His son.
So I was correct,
In your theology Abraham could have told God, "God I will not sacrifice my son, I'm justified accounted as righteous before your eyes by my belief alone".

What you do not realize is your gospel teaches we can be saved through disobedience, all that God really requires is belief with no works(obedience).

Dan, James says Abraham was accounted righteous by his works,
James 2:21;24,
- Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar,
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works(faith conjoined with his obedience)
and by works was faith made perfect

- Ye see(do you see it Dan?) then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

I dont need another man to tell me what James is saying.
James just said exactly the OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAID JAMES IS SAYING.

Abraham was already accounted as righteous in God's eyes based on his faith alone(no works of any kind) in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3)

You are teaching Abraham was justified before he was obedient to God in Genesis 15:6.
Before Genesis 15, go back to Genesis 12.
Abraham was obeying Gods commandments in Genesis 12 up to Genesis 15.

WHICH MAKES ABRAHAM'S FAITH A FAITH THAT WAS NOT ALONE. HIS FAITH WORKED.
That is the faith that justifies Abraham in Genesis 15:6

Genesis 12:1,4,
- now the Lord spoke to Abraham, Get out of thy country(Direct commandment from God)
Does Abraham's faith cause him to obey Gods commandments?

Verse 4,
- So Abraham departed as the Lord had spoken...
(Abraham's faith was never alone, his faith worked Gods commandments).

What faith justified Abraham in Genesis 15:6 Dan? Faith with no works?

Genesis 15:6,
- and he believed in the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness(Justified before God)

Your religion is made up fictious friend. Faith with no works according to James is dead.

Abraham was already justified (accounted as righteous) before God based on his faith before he did the work of offering up Isaac on the altar many years later in Genesis 22. Since Abraham had authentic faith

Here again you're claiming authentic faith is with no works.
You always contradict yourself Dan and you don't see it.
You then explain that authentic faith MUST INCLUDE WORKS OR IT IS NOT AUTHENTIC.

Since Abraham had authentic faith, he would not have refused to do the works God gave him to do. It's all about works with you.

Your position is Abraham's faith is authentic without works!!! Therefore to follow that logic, no works is authentic faith but you then contradict yourself and say all faith that is authentic has works.
Back and forth you go, illogical mumbo jumbo.

There it is! Busted! By this statement above you are saying that obedience/works is an integral part of faith and that we are saved by both faith and works.

No, saving faith rightly defined is never void of obedience.
You cannot seperate faith from obedience and claim that is Biblical saving faith which is what you are doing without realizing it.

Works in James 2 is FAITH!!!! The Bible defines faith that obeys Gods commandments as works of obedience.

Proof that the Bible teaches obedient works is Faith.
Genesis 6:22,
- Thus did Noah according to all that God commanded him, so did he

Noah was a man of righteousness because his faith obeyed Gods commandments.
What do you call Noah's work on the ark?
Works seperate from faith?
Or did Noah work because his great faith in God trusted what God told him to do, therefore he took action with his great faith.

Dan your faith that saves would not have required Noah to do any work on the ark to be accounted as righteous before God, Justified before God.

Noah would have been drowned with the rest of the world if his faith did not move him to take action by working Gods commandments.

Noah's works was his faith in action!
Hebrews 11:7,
- by faith Noah being warned of God of things not yet seen moved(faith in action) with godly fear prepared an ark to the saving of his household

Gods word says Noah was saved by the work of preparing the ark. Why did he work to build an ark? His faith was building that ark. Without his faith he would not have worked.

What does the Bible call marching around the walls of Jericho?
Hebrews 11:30,
- by faith the walls of Jericho fell...

Dan not by works the walls of Jericho fell BY FAITH THE WALLS OF JERICHO FELL

What was that marching around called? Faith in action.

- by faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compassed seven times.

Dan your faith that saves would be no marching to make the walls of Jericho fall just believe no works.

Biblical faith does not work that way Dan.

True Biblical saving faith always has obedience.
To take works out of faith is not possible.
All you have according to James is a dead faith,
James 2:20.
God Himself joined faith with obedient works.

You go against God when you try to seperate the two,

Matthew 19:6,
- since they are no longer two but one, let no man split apart, what God has joined together

Any thing that God has conjoined together, no man has the right to seperate.
That is a universal principle that does not just apply to marriage.

 

[Titus]

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that DOETH the will of My Father which is in heaven

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, but more specifically a lack of SAVING faith.

Abraham already exhibited SAVING faith in Genesis 15:6 when he believed the Lord and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. (Romans 4:2-3) When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Try not to over think this, Titus.

Not a complete lack of faith as James teaches there is more than just one kind of faith,

James 2:19,
- You believe that there is one God you do well, even the demons believe and tremble

In James 2:19, we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Big difference! Their trust and reliance are in Satan as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. The faith of demons cannot save.

There is a faith seperate from obedience taught in the Scriptures and it cannot justify.

A faith that is separate from obedience (produces no works at all) is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. (James 2:14) That is the heart of the issue of why it cannot justify. Genuine faith trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation and does not remain barren of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) But it's still faith in Christ that saves and not the good works which follow. There will be no boasting.

Your faith has no works, therefore no obedience and that is the faith that you claim saves.

How do you know my faith has no works? Are you a fruit inspector? I don't claim that a bare profession of faith that produces no obedience/works is the kind of faith that saves. You fail to understand the heart of the issue of why that kind of faith cannot save.

What works is James talking about Dan? Answer: Works of a mans faith.
You try and say over here is faith and over here Is works.
You dont see that James is teaching Abraham's works is his faith in action, DOING.
THE DOING OF FAITH.
Faith that does nothing is dead.

Works are the fruit of faith but not the essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

James teaches the opposite about Abraham's faith.
You claim Abraham was accounted righteous before God WITH NO WORKS OF OBEDIENCE, Faith alone.
That is NOT what James teaches. Why do you try and force James to say Abraham was justified without obedience to God?
Because you are blind.

Abraham was accounted as righteous before God because he believed God in Genesis 15:6 and not because he accomplished a check list of works. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. (so not accounted as righteous before God by works) 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Who is blind? That would be YOU. Abraham was accounted as righteous by faith apart from works (Romans 4:2-3) and he was shown to be righteous by works. (James 2:21, 24)

You have proved my point.

You have proved nothing, and you still cannot get it through your head that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

You are teaching Abraham was justified apart from obeying God by sacrificing His son.
So I was correct,

I am teaching that Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up his son on the altar as a sacrifice in Genesis 22 then many years later Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar for a sacrifice. So, I was correct, and you are wrong.

In your theology Abraham could have told God, "God I will not sacrifice my son, I'm justified accounted as righteous before your eyes by my belief alone".

Straw man argument. Since Abraham's faith was genuine, he would not have refused to sacrifice his son, yet Abraham was still justified (accounted as righteous) by believing God in Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3 many years before offered up his son as a sacrifice in Genesis 22.
Just deal with it and stop fighting against the truth.

What you do not realize is your gospel teaches we can be saved through disobedience, all that God really requires is belief with no works(obedience).

Another straw man argument. My gospel teaches that we are saved by the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) and that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and that hearts are purified by faith. (Acts 15:7-9) Obedience follows as the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith. I'm sorry if that does not accommodate your works based false gospel.

Dan, James says Abraham was accounted righteous by his works,
James 2:21;24,

Dan, James says Abraham was not accounted as righteous by his works Romans 4:2-3) but was shown to be righteous by his works (James 2:21,24) I fixed it for you.

- Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar,
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works (faith conjoined with his obedience)
and by works was faith made perfect

Unless you have received a new pair of bifocals from the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) you will not properly interpret this text, and the end result of your misinterpretation will be salvation by works. There is that word I often hear from CoC folks - "conjoined". Faith conjoined with works is what you believe saves which equates to salvation by faith and works in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9: Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9) Abraham was shown to be righteous (and not accounted as righteous) when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar. Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham's faith was finally perfect or complete in finally being able to save him, which would contradict Romans 4:2-3.

- Ye see(do you see it Dan?) then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith alone

I see Titus how that by works a man is justified (shown to be righteous) and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) I understand more than you think. I also understand your blindness.

I dont need another man to tell me what James is saying.
James just said exactly the OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAID JAMES IS SAYING.

I don't need you to tell me what James is saying. James just said exactly what I shared with you which is in perfect harmony with what Paul said Romans 4:2-6. You fail to read James 2 in context, and you also fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

You are teaching Abraham was justified before he was obedient to God in Genesis 15:6.
Before Genesis 15, go back to Genesis 12.
Abraham was obeying Gods commandments in Genesis 12 up to Genesis 15.

James is talking about obedience in Genesis 22.

WHICH MAKES ABRAHAM'S FAITH A FAITH THAT WAS NOT ALONE. HIS FAITH WORKED.

You are so desperate to uphold salvation by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Let the boasting begin for Titus!

 

[mailmandan]

That is the faith that justifies Abraham in Genesis 15:6

Genesis 12:1,4,
- now the Lord spoke to Abraham, Get out of thy country(Direct commandment from God)
Does Abraham's faith cause him to obey Gods commandments?

Verse 4,
- So Abraham departed as the Lord had spoken...
(Abraham's faith was never alone, his faith worked Gods commandments).

In Genesis 12, Abraham obeyed God by going out of his country to a place that God would show him, but that's not the end of the story and that is not salvation by works. It was not until Genesis 15:5-6 in which God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. *Also see Romans 4:2-6. The argument is not that Abraham never obeyed God (faith remained alone in that regard) it's that Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness and not his works. (Romans 4:2-3) You are so desperate to uphold salvation by works that you completely disregard Romans 4:2-6.

What faith justified Abraham in Genesis 15:6 Dan? Faith with no works?

So, by Abraham leaving his country, his works were accounted to him for righteousness? Is that what we read in Romans 4:2-3 Titus? James doesn't even discuss Abraham leaving his country in regard to works in James chapter 2. James is discussing Abraham offering his son Isaac on the altar from Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous by works in James 2:21 many years after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. You are so hung up on works! Prior to my conversion I was too. Roman Catholicism mixes faith and works big time for salvation.

Genesis 15:6,
- and he believed in the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness(Justified before God)

Your religion is made up fictious friend. Faith with no works according to James is dead.

Faith that produces no works is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith and is dead according to James. (James 2:14) BUT we are still saved through faith and not by works according to Paul. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You fail to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture and the end result of your flawed hermeneutics is a false gospel that culminates in salvation by works.

Here again you're claiming authentic faith is with no works.
You always contradict yourself Dan and you don't see it.
You then explain that authentic faith MUST INCLUDE WORKS OR IT IS NOT AUTHENTIC.

We are saved by authentic faith apart from works. (Romans 4:2-6) Man is saved through faith apart from the merit of works yet genuine faith does not remain apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-24) Authentic faith results in producing good works but we are still saved through faith and not by works. This is impossible for the natural man to understand. Been there, done that but now I BELIEVE, and the veil has been lifted. Your problem is you think that dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith. Cart before the horse.

Your position is Abraham's faith is authentic without works!!! Therefore to follow that logic, no works is authentic faith but you then contradict yourself and say all faith that is authentic has works.
Back and forth you go, illogical mumbo jumbo.

It's only mumbo jumbo to the natural man who cannot understand. Abraham's faith was authentic when he believed God in Genesis 15:6 and his faith was accounted to him for righteous many years before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 and was shown to be righteous. (James 2:21) There is no contradiction on my part. Just confusion on your part.

No, saving faith rightly defined is never void of obedience.

Never void of resulting in obedience/works but we are saved through faith and not by works. You seem to have a lot of faith in obedience/works for salvation rather than faith that trusts exclusively in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. It's a matter of pride. It takes humility to acknowledge your complete dependence on Christ to save you. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to let go of your works and receive Christ through faith.

You cannot seperate faith from obedience and claim that is Biblical saving faith which is what you are doing without realizing it.

Faith in essence is not obedience/works which follows and is produced out of faith. Your basically define faith "as" obedience/works. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I made the same error.

Works in James 2 is FAITH!!!! The Bible defines faith that obeys Gods commandments as works of obedience.

There it is!!!! You erroneously define faith "as" works! Busted! This explains why you have so much faith in works for salvation and refuse to by faith trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. ALL works-salvationists erroneously define faith "as" works and teach salvation by works.

THIS IS THE VERY HEART OF YOUR ERROR WHICH BEGETS FURTHER ERROR AND THIS ALSO REMAINS YOUR ACHILLEES HEEL!

Until you acknowledge your complete dependency on Jesus Christ to save you and stop trusting in your works to save you, I cannot help you any further. Everything I explain to you will just continue to go right over your head, so until you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation, I will just continue to waste my time beating a dead horse. This could be your turning point, Titus. Just as it was for me several years ago when I placed my faith in Jesus Christ ALONE for salvation. (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 10:43; Romans 3:24-28; 5:4-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but he that DOETH the will of My Father which is in heaven

You continue to confuse God's will for us to become saved (believe/faith - John 6:40) with God's will for us after we have been saved. (good works - Ephesians 2:10) Until the veil is lifted..

 

[Titus]

In Genesis 12, Abraham obeyed God by going out of his country to a place that God would show him, but that's not the end of the story and that is not salvation by works. It was not until Genesis 15:5-6 in which God brought Abraham outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

In your religion there is NO WORKS BEFORE SALVATION. Only works come AFTER salvation.

Abraham's walk with God does not fit your churches doctrine at all.

Abraham had obeyed Gods commandments from Genesis 12 up to Genesis 15.
Therefore it is an impossibility to claim Abraham's faith was absent of works when God said he was accounted righteous.
Your argument is a desperate attempt to put your faith alone doctrine and insert it into the text.
Abraham' faith was not alone in Genesis 15 and anyone who has not been indoctrinated into a religion can see it.
There is a veil covering your eyes Dan.

Until you acknowledge your complete dependency on Jesus Christ to save you and stop trusting in your works to save you

O, so Noah working to build the ark was Noah trusting in his works not God.
Abraham sacrificing his son was Abraham trusting in his works not in God.
Marching around the walls of Jericho was trusting in their works not in God.

You are under strong delusion if you think Noah would have been trusting in his works by obeying Gods commandments.


What motivates all these heroes of faith to do these works?
Their faith in their works to save them?

Or their great faith in God knowing He will save them if they obey what He commands?

Putting faith in Jesus causes one to believe in Him and what He says to do.
That's faith. True faith one will build an ark no matter how ridiculous it seems.

So in your religion all these people trusted in their works not their faith in God.

There it is!!!! You erroneously define faith "as" works! Busted

You are blind Dan.
I showed the Scriptures that define works of obedience as their faith!!!
You cannot see what is right in front of your eyes because your mind has been closed.
You've been convicted of faith only salvation for so long that every passage is explained away that differs with your preconceived gospel.

Hebrews 11:30,
- by  works the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days

That is a perversion of the Scripture Dan.
You seperate works from faith. You have a made up fictious definition of Biblical faith.

What does the Bible call their marching around for seven days?

Hebrews 11:31,
- by  faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compassed about seven days

Their works is their faith in action Dan.
It's right in front of your eyes but you refuse to see it.

Faith in essence is not obedience/works which follows and is produced out of faith

You admit no obedience to God in your plan of salvation.
Therefore your gospel saves by belief alone and disobedience to God.

You continue to confuse God's will for us to become saved (believe/faith - John 6:40) with God's will for us after we have been saved. (good works - Ephesians 2:10) Until the veil is lifted

Jesus told you Dan, those who DOETH His will, will be with Him in heaven.
Belief alone, there is no action in obedience towards Gods will, which includes keeping His law.

Their is no do in your gospel to be saved. DOETH is an action taken.

Matthew 7:21-23,
- Not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven but he that
DOETH(action) the will of My Father in heaven, many will say to Me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works

and then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from Me ye workers of lawlessness

Dan, there is no law in your gospel to be saved.
Since there is no obedience in your gospel unto salvation, there is no law to obey.

This contradicts Jesus. He clearly teaches those who do the will of His Father work His law.

That is the doing. Your gospel is a gospel of lawlessness.
It's a false gospel.

The wisest man that ever lived taught us what the will of the Father is,

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14,
- Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man

for God shall bring every work into judgement with every secret thing whether it be good or whether it be evil.


The bible teaches there are good works and evil works.

Paul in Romans 4 is teaching of evil works, specifically meritorious works that are not in Gods law and have no place in justification.

 

[Simonides]

.

 

[mailmandan]

In your religion there is NO WORKS BEFORE SALVATION. Only works come AFTER salvation.

In my religion or is that what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10? Are we saved through faith FIRST then created in Christ Jesus unto good works or are we created in Christ Jesus unto good works BEFORE we are saved through faith? You are obsessed with works for salvation.

Abraham's walk with God does not fit your churches doctrine at all.

Sure, it does.

Abraham had obeyed Gods commandments from Genesis 12 up to Genesis 15.

What commandments? Leaving his home?

Therefore it is an impossibility to claim Abraham's faith was absent of works when God said he was accounted righteous.

The works of Abraham that James mentions took place in Genesis 22 and not Genesis 12.

Your argument is a desperate attempt to put your faith alone doctrine and insert it into the text.

That doctrine is crystal clear in (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) Abraham believed God and it was credited to him for righteousness. Deal with it or else remain in unbelief. The choice is yours.

Abraham' faith was not alone in Genesis 15 and anyone who has not been indoctrinated into a religion can see it.

What was accounted to Abraham as righteousness in Genesis 15? His faith or his works? Case closed.

There is a veil covering your eyes Dan.

Oh, the irony. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) I was blind as a lost Roman Catholic several years ago, but now I see.

O, so Noah working to build the ark was Noah trusting in his works not God.

Noah had already "found grace" in the eyes of the Lord/was a righteous man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8-9), and "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it.

Abraham sacrificing his son was Abraham trusting in his works not in God.

Abraham was not trusting in his works for salvation but in God. (Genesis 15:6) You, on the other hand..

Marching around the walls of Jericho was trusting in their works not in God.

They were trusting in what God said about the walls of Jericho falling if they marched around it. That was not a salvation issue.

You are under strong delusion if you think Noah would have been trusting in his works by obeying Gods commandments.

Straw man argument.

What motivates all these heroes of faith to do these works?
Their faith in their works to save them?

Or their great faith in God knowing He will save them if they obey what He commands?

Their motives were not in their works for salvation. You on the other hand..

Putting faith in Jesus causes one to believe in Him and what He says to do.
That's faith. True faith one will build an ark no matter how ridiculous it seems.

Putting faith in Jesus Christ for salvation it what saves us. He is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. We are to do what Jesus says after that for the right reasons and with the right motivations. Jesus was not a works-salvationist.

So in your religion all these people trusted in their works not their faith in God.

Straw man argument. This is getting old Titus.

You are blind Dan.
I showed the Scriptures that define works of obedience as their faith!!!

No, you showed me your eisegesis. Faith is faith and works of obedience which follow are works. Roman Catholics stumble over this as well.

You cannot see what is right in front of your eyes because your mind has been closed.

You truly are the master of irony.

You've been convicted of faith only salvation for so long that every passage is explained away that differs with your preconceived gospel.

My gospel is the same gospel that the apostle Paul preached (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) that is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16)

I don't subscribe to a "different" gospel as you do. Until the veil is removed Titus you will not believe.

Hebrews 11:30,
- by  works the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days

It was by or "out of" faith that this work was accomplished. It's not that this work was in essence faith itself. Learn the difference.

That is a perversion of the Scripture Dan.
You seperate works from faith. You have a made up fictious definition of Biblical faith.

A perversion on your part. You shoehorn works into faith and make no distinction between faith and works. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I made the same error as you. ALL works-salvationists make this same error.
THIS IS THE VERY HEART OF YOUR ERROR WHICH BEGETS FURTHER ERROR AND THIS ALSO REMAINS YOUR ACHILLEES HEEL!

 

[mailmandan]

What does the Bible call their marching around for seven days?

Hebrews 11:31,
- by  faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compassed about seven days

By or "out of" faith is what was meant. Not faith "is" in essence works. There is a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Their works is their faith in action Dan.
It's right in front of your eyes but you refuse to see it.

Their works were a 'demonstration' of their faith but not their faith itself. It's right in front of your eyes Titus but are unable to see it.

You admit no obedience to God in your plan of salvation.
Therefore your gospel saves by belief alone and disobedience to God.

Another straw man argument. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow.

Jesus told you Dan, those who DOETH His will, will be with Him in heaven.
Belief alone, there is no action in obedience towards Gods will, which includes keeping His law.

Jesus told us about His will in John 6:40 (believe in Him to receive eternal life) and I do believe in Him for salvation. Belief plus what? Belief alone. This belief resulted in produce multiple acts of obedience/works because it is alive in Christ (so it's not alone in that sense) but it's still the belief alone (believing in Jesus alone for salvation) that saved me (Jesus gets 100% credit for my salvation) and not the works which followed. So, your faith is in Jesus + keeping the law for salvation? Salvation by works.

Their is no do in your gospel to be saved. DOETH is an action taken.

So that's what bothers you. You want to DO something in order to help save yourself and take credit. Salvation is DONE Titus. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. There will be no boasting for you Titus! You need to let go of your works and receive Christ through faith. Human pride is holding you back!

Matthew 7:21-23,
- Not everyone that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven but he that
DOETH(action) the will of My Father in heaven, many will say to Me in that day, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works

and then will I profess unto them I never knew you depart from Me ye workers of lawlessness

These many people in Matthew 7:22 trusted in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone (sound familiar?) and Jesus never knew them. (vs. 23) Apart from faith and the blood of Christ to wash away our sins, in the eyes of God we remain workers of lawlessness because our sins remain.

Dan, there is no law in your gospel to be saved.
Since there is no obedience in your gospel unto salvation, there is no law to obey.

Straw man argument. What law are you looking to save yourself by? The law of works? (Romans 3:27-28) Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. That is obeying the gospel. (Romans 10:16) My gospel is about the law of faith.

This contradicts Jesus. He clearly teaches those who do the will of His Father work His law.

What law is that?

That is the doing. Your gospel is a gospel of lawlessness.
It's a false gospel.

So, your gospel says DO in order to save yourself by the law works. (Matthew 7:22-23) My gospel says DONE. Jesus saves us through believing the gospel by trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) My gospel is not about seeking justification by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

The wisest man that ever lived taught us what the will of the Father is,

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14,
- Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God keep His commandments for this is the whole duty of man

for God shall bring every work into judgement with every secret thing whether it be good or whether it be evil.

Which commandments are those and what does it mean to "keep" them? Folks in the CoC and folks in the SDA church would not give the same answer to that question. We are under a new covenant now. (1 John 2:3-4; 3:21-24)

Mark of the Beast

Bible Truth Versus SDA Doctrine - Mark of the Beast

nonsda.org

The bible teaches there are good works and evil works.

Yes. There are good trees that produce good fruit and bad trees that produce bad fruit. (Matthew 7:17)

Paul in Romans 4 is teaching of evil works, specifically meritorious works that are not in Gods law and have no place in justification.

So, offering up Isaac on the altar was an evil work for Abraham? (Romans 4:2-3) Just man up and stop trying to dance around the truth! Any works that stand between us and obtaining salvation would be meritorious works because that would make those works the basis or means by which we received salvation. We are not saved by works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) When will you believe?

 

[Titus]

In my religion or is that what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10? Are we saved through faith FIRST then created in Christ Jesus unto good works or are we created in Christ Jesus unto good works BEFORE we are saved through faith? You are obsessed with works for salvation.

What I am sure of is a failure to understand what Biblical faith is and how to differentiate the kinds of works being taught in the context of passages will lead a person into false conclusions on salvation.

So, your gospel says DO in order to save yourself by the law works. (Matthew 7:22-23) My gospel says DONE. Jesus saves us through believing the gospel by trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) My gospel is not about seeking justification by works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:16)

Your gospel is confusion.
Blind men leading the blind.

No doing(obeying) in your gospel of salvation Dan.
The Bible does not teach there is no doing(obeying Gods commandments) to be saved.

Biblical fact: faith itself is a work therefore it is an impossibility to get works out of salvation.
John 6:28-29,
- then said they unto Jesus, what shall we  do that we might work the works of God
- Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent

Jesus refutes you. He from His own mouth says believing on Him is a work.

All works that save are works of belief.
So, doing, working, obeying Gods new testament commandments is faith in action.

No doing anything in your gospel Dan.
Not the gospel we read about in the Bible.

Matthew 7:21,
- but he that DOETH the will of my Father in heaven

Acts 2:37-38,
- now when they heard this(the gospel message) they were pricked in their heart and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren what shall we  do

Acts 9:6,
- and Saul trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do

Acts 10:6,
- he lodgeth with one Simon a tanner whose house is by the sea side he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do

Acts 16:30,
- and brought them out and said Sirs what must I do to be a saved

Peter's and Paul's response to all these folks question was...

"What? Dont you know you dont have to do anything!!! Jesus did it all, why aren't you trusting in Jesus?" "Just believe alone and nothing you can do can save you."

That is NOT what the apostles told folks on how to be saved!!!
Dan, your gospel is not found in the Bible.

So, offering up Isaac on the altar was an evil work for Abraham? (Romans 4:2-3)

This makes no sense.
These comments are evidence that you do not understand the Scriptures.

In my religion or is that what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10? Are we saved through faith FIRST then created in Christ Jesus unto good works or are we created in Christ Jesus unto good works BEFORE we are saved through faith? You are obsessed with works for salvation

You do not differentiate of what kind of works are being discussed in each passage.
This is why you dont understand because you lump all works into merit instead of having the knowledge to know the context.

Paul taught the gospel to the Ephesians in Acts 19:1-7.
He did not teach them do nothing just have faith alone.
Therefore your use of Ephesians 2:8-9 does not prove works are not in Jesus' gospel.

When you learn what works are being discussed by Paul in context. Only then will you understand Paul's teaching.

Ephesians 2:8-9,
- for by grace are ye saved through the faith(gospel) and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works least any man  boast

Paul is teaching that we are saved by Grace not by works that men could boast about saving themselves through keeping the law of Moses.

First you must learn that the Greek uses THE before faith.
This means Paul is not teaching personal belief.
Paul is teaching the system of faith or the gospel of Jesus Christ.

So understood correctly Paul is saying.,

- For by grace are you saved through the gospel and that not of yourselves...

Paul is NOT teaching we are saved by grace through our belief alone. That is a perversion of the text.

Next,
- by grace are you saved through the faith, and that not of yourselves

Not of yourselves means you are saved by Gods grace not any works of merit. Jews thought they could work the laws in the law of Moses and be saved. That is meriting salvation through works not grace. Paul condemns this belief over and over.

- For by grace are ye saved through the faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God

A free gift cannot be earned!!! Proof Paul is condemning meritorious works here. Not all works!!! Just the idea of earning salvation.

- For by grace you have been saved through the faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God Not of works lest any man should boast

Paul once again is teaching the Ephesians that they were saved by Gods grace not by boastful works.

What are boastful works?
Any work that would earn salvation.
If man could work his way into heaven he could boast about the work he done to earn salvation.

The Jews had this belief and Paul had to correct them of this false doctrine over and over.

This is what Paul is teaching in Romans chapter 4. Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9 are the same works under discussion.

Romans 4:2,
- for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to  boast but not before God

Paul is teaching the law of Moses cannot bring salvation no matter how much works of the law one keeps. But also Paul is teaching against the ADDITION of man made laws that the Jews invented themselves and binding them on others. The Jews put their made up heresies into Gods law and demanded that they were equal to Gods commandments. Working these laws only got you damned into hell.

Abraham was not under the law of Moses. This is why Paul is using Abraham as proof that no one is justified by keeping the law of Moses.
Abraham was justified by an obedient faith in God not by merit is Paul's point in Romans chapter 4.

Acts 13:39,
- and by Jesus all that believe are justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses

Paul had to beat it out of the jews heads that the did not recieve justification by working the law of Moses. They erred in their belief that salvation was merited.

They took this false belief and tried to force gentiles who became christians into keeping the law of Moses like for example circumcision. Telling the gentiles that one could not be saved without the work of circumcision.

Galatians 6:13,
- for neither they themselves who are circumcised(jews) keep the law(law of Moses) but desire to have you circumcised that they may  boast in your flesh

Boastful works aka works of merit are the kind of works Paul taught against.

Paul never taught all works have no part in Jesus' gospel unto salvation as Dan and his faith only religion teaches.

They are coming from a place of ignorance with regard to the Scriptures and this is why they do not understand the gospel and how it saves.

Did you know that Jesus' commandments are good?
Paul preached to obey Jesus to be saved.
Not to work the laws of Moses.

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

It is is direct command to believe in Jesus.
Therefore faith itself is an act of faith.
It is a work that must be obeyed,
John 6:28-29.

 

[Titus]

Also Dan has continuously made this accusation that I and my brethren are obsessed with works.

Not so.
I'm forced into teaching on works when I discuss salvation with a no works faith onlyist.

I could make a similar accusation.

Dan, you are obsessed with belief, belief, belief alone.
All you talk about is faith alone.

 

[mailmandan]

What I am sure of is a failure to understand what Biblical faith is and how to differentiate the kinds of works being taught in the context of passages will lead a person into false conclusions on salvation.

You pinpointed your problem. Now you just need to fix it. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1) and works are works, whether works of the law, good works, works of righteousness, our works etc.. We are not saved by works of any kind. Period. (Galatians 2:16; Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Your gospel is confusion.
Blind men leading the blind.

There is no confusion. The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. Speaking of blind, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) This is the very heart of the reason why folks do not believe the gospel.

No doing (obeying) in your gospel of salvation Dan.

That is the problem with your gospel. It is a do it yourself and save works-based false gospel. That is not believing. That is working. (Romans 4:5-6)

The Bible does not teach there is no doing (obeying Gods commandments) to be saved.

Believers "keep" His commandments BECAUSE we are saved and not in order to become saved. You have it backwards. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, which is 'descriptive' of genuine believers. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. That is 'descriptive' of unbelievers.

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- to watch over, to guard (biblehub.com)

You so desperately want to DO something and help save yourself and take credit for it. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to stop trusting in your works for salvation and instead trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. You simply refuse to believe the gospel. It would be too devastating to your ego to admit that you are wrong.

Biblical fact: faith itself is a work therefore it is an impossibility to get works out of salvation.
John 6:28-29,
- then said they unto Jesus, what shall we  do that we might work the works of God
- Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent

Jesus refutes you. He from His own mouth says believing on Him is a work.

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works, which would contradict (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9). Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Jesus Christ is the object of our belief, and He receives 100% credit for our salvation. Sadly, you want to "add" works to that and take credit for yourself, but Jesus refutes you, along with these other folks in John 6:28.

All works that save are works of belief.

Works do not save. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Works are produced out of belief but they are not belief itself.

So, doing, working, obeying Gods new testament commandments is faith in action.

That is the fruit of faith but not the essence of faith and it's also what we are saved FOR and not by. (Ephesians 2:8-10; 1 John 2:3)

No doing anything in your gospel Dan.
Not the gospel we read about in the Bible.

Choosing to believe the gospel is not doing anything? Not according to the Bible. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes.. (Romans 1:16) That is not good enough for you because you want to DO something and add it to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save you and take credit. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21) Lord, Lord, didn't WE. (Matthew 7;22)

Titus:
Dan, you are obsessed with belief, belief, belief alone.
All you talk about is faith alone.

I am obsessed with the object of my belief alone, Jesus Christ/Christ's righteousness. Faith (in Christ) alone. He is my Lord and Savior and the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. Praise God! All you talk about is water baptism + other works/works righteousness/self-righteousness.

Luke 18:9 - Jesus told this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others/regarded others with contempt. (sound familiar?) Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”