JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[Titus]

A relatively new interpretation of the context of James 2 is that James is explaining a christian's justification before man by the works that are born of ones faith.

This is error a misinterpretation and reinterpretation of what James is teaching on justification through faith in Christ.

Why has this interpretation become popular?
Answer: Main reason is the false doctrine of faith absent of obedient works is what Justifies us before God aka faith alone salvation.

Secondly, Majority of mankind is enticed by their carnal fleshy desires which the faith only gospel feeds to the utmost contentment and a false sense of security.
Why? Simply because their is nothing one has to do as far as obeying any of Gods new testament commandments to be saved. Therefore one can stay living in their current sinful lifestyle simply believe on Jesus and their sins will immediately be remitted and eternal security is finalized. NOTHING AT THIS POINT NOT EVEN MURDER CAN SEPERATE THEM FROM GOD AND A HOME IN HEAVEN. A doctrine most loved by those who have secret sin that they never intend to give up.

But, I will say there are some good hearted folks who do desire to live God fearing lives hating the immoral sins they once committed, they simply have been misled into believing a false gospel.

Back to justification in the book of James chapter 2.

How justification is wrongly divided in James 2.

First you have a wrong idea implanted in your mind based on a false premise that the bible does not teach works are involved in Justification.
Once this belief is deeply embedded in the mind of a believer they will be very open minded to this teaching, that is, James is teaching justification before men because that fits with their preconceived notion that no works of any kind play a part in Justification before God.

They way we know what James is teaching us, is to listen to what James is saying not what other men tell us what James is saying, INCLUDING MYSELF!!!

Key verses that must be known to understand where James is coming from.

James is speaking to born again Jewish converts. These men already know that God expects them to be DOERS of the law and not hearers only deceiving themselves, James 1:22-23,
- receive with meekness the engrafted  word which is able to save your souls but be doers(work) of the word and not hearers only(belief but no obedience) deceiving yourself

Second verse to consider is the verse that sets the subject for which James is teaching in James 2.
That is, can faith with no doing save mankind?

James 2:14,
- What doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have no works, can faith alone save him?

James is asking if faith with no works save ? This is a question of salvation with regards to what kind of faith one has.

The modern interpretation is James 2 is not talking about salvation only teaching that faith with no works is not evident to the eyes of other men. Therefore faith without works does not justify the believer before men.

This idea was not what James had in mind as we will learn from James himself.

Notice the context, James asks what kind of faith saves us?

Next James points out demons have faith but are not justified.
James 2:19,
- Thou believest that there is one God thou doest well the demons also believe and tremble.

That needs to be meditated upon.
James says their (demons) faith absent of obedient works cannot justify them before whom?
STAY IN THE CONTEXT DO NOT REFER BACK TO PRESUPPOSITIONAL BELIEFS.

Answer: They are not justified before God. James uses the demons as an example of faith not being justified by God.

Question: If James is teaching justification before men then why use the demons as an example?
Demons justification has nothing to do with men.
Demons could care less what other men think of them.

The next example James gives for what kind of faith justifies is Abraham.
James 2:21,22
- Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son upon the altar
- Seest thou how faith wrought with his works and by works was faith made perfect

You must know the old testament story of Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac to come to the right conclusion on who
was James intending to be the one who justifies Abraham.

First Abraham was not doing this obedient work because other men told him to or challenged him to prove his faith by sacrificing his son.
Second this was a test of faith and it was God alone who was trying the faith of Abraham.
In the story of Job God allowed satan to test Jobs faith and obedience to his God but in this story this test of faith is only between two: God and Abraham.

Great importance, the location of where Abraham is told to go by God to sacrifice his son.
Also of equal importance who was there to witness the sacrifice.

Genesis 22:,
- and it came to pass God did tempt Abraham...
- and Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey and took two of his young men with him,
And Isaac his son and clave the wood for a burnt offering and rose up and went unto the place which God had told him

- then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off
And Abraham said unto his young men ABIDE YE HERE WITH THE DONKEY AND I AND THE LAD WILL GO YONDER AND WORSHIP AND COME BACK TO YOU


Notice who is with Abraham in his worship to God?
Not the two young men, they have been left behind.
Only himself and his son are going to worship.
Who else will be there?
We will see God and his angel are there with Abraham.

- and Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it upon Isaac his son and he took the fire in his hand and a knife and they went both of them together
And Isaac spake unto his father and said My father and he said here I am my son, and he said behold the fire and the wood but where is the lamb for a burnt offering
And Abraham said my son God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering so they WENT BOTH of them

The story goes Abraham took his son placed him on the altar drew his hand back with a knife and as he was about to kill his son an angel stopped him.
When this takes place no one is there except God, angel, Abraham, son.

- and the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven and said Abraham and he said, Here I am
And he said lay not your hand upon this lad neither do thou anything unto him for now I know that thou fearest God seeing thou hast not withheld thy son thine only son

Abraham was thus justified before Gods eyes.

This is the justification James is teaching in James chapter 2.

This is the correct context and now let's here James explain what kind of faith justifies man?
Faith with no works or faith that works the commandments of God?

James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified(before God) and not by faith alone

- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

Many today believe you are saved by a dead faith.
The Holy Word of God never taught this kind of faith justifies men before God.

 

[Pierac]

Let both Paul and James have the final word!!!

Paul...
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

James:
Jam 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

So.... What's your point???

 

[Titus]

Let both Paul and James have the final word!!!

Paul...
Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

James:
Jam 2:8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

So.... What's your point???

Hello,
Point is what the article explains.
Did you miss the point of the article to ask me, what's the point?

The point is, one must rightly divide Gods word, 2Timothy 2:15.
Teaching James chapter 2 is about being justified before men is wrongly dividing Gods word. Putting words in James' mouth.

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims to have faith but has no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

Strongs's #1344: dikaioo - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone "barren of works." (James 2:14)

*Fits the context.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.

Greek word for justified "dikaioo" Strongs #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

*Fits the context.

*This is how we rightly divide the word of truth. *Hermeneutics.

 

[Johann]

*This is how we rightly divide the word of truth. *Hermeneutics.

Jas_2:14

Section 2:14-26 Faith and Works
Connected 7 times in this section:
Jas_2:14; Jas_2:17; Jas_2:18; Jas_2:20; Jas_2:22; Jas_2:24; Jas_2:26;

The Difference between James and Paul
James' definition of "faith" = believing, mental activity, while Paul's definition of faith = the gospel system vs the Law of Moses.

James' "works" = obedience to the faith
(Faith is called a work in Joh_6:29, that is, a work (something) ordained by God.
Paul's "works" often mean meritorious works of the law and traditions.
- - - - - - - -

What does it profit -- (what good is it, ESV; what is the benefit, LEB; what use is it, NASB)
Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from ὀφελλω [ophello], to increase, in N. T. only here, and in Jas_2:16, and 1Co_15:32. - RWP

The Greek particle μὴ (me) at the beginning of the next question (Can that faith save him?) shows that James again expects a negative answer.

my brethren -- (Jas_1:2; Jas_1:9) Written to Christians. A favorite expression with James and occurs no less than fifteen times in this short epistle.

if someone says -- This is a THIRD CLASS CONDITIONAL SENTENCE, “someone may say.” It is structured like the diatribe form (a supposed objector) of Jas_1:26. - Utley

This important phrase governs the interpretation of the entire passage. James does not say that this person actually has faith, but that he claims to have it. - MSB

he has faith ..
The emphasis is not on the true nature of faith but on the false claim of faith. - BKC

Biblical faith (pistis) has several aspects: (1) doctrine (cf. 1Jn_4:1-6; Jud_1:3, Jud_1:20; (2) personal relationship and commitment to Jesus (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16; Rom_10:9-13); and (3) lifestyle (cf. James and I John). All three aspects are involved in genuine, mature faith. - Utley

does not have works -- “but keeps on not having (μη [mē] and present active subjunctive ἐχῃ [echēi]) works. - RWP

can faith save him -- (can such faith save him, can that faith save him) -- A negative answer is anticipated in the Greek. Merely claiming to have faith is not enough. Genuine faith is evidenced by works. - BKC

The pronoun, and, in the Greek, the article prefixed to faith, are emphatic. “Can his faith save him, being such as he is?” - CBSC

James is not disputing the importance of faith. Rather, he is opposing the notion that saving faith can be a mere intellectual exercise void of a commitment to active obedience (cf. Mat_7:16-18). The grammatical form of the question demands a negative answer. - MSB

James asserts that genuine faith affects the believer’s behavior; faith that does not affect behavior is superficial and cannot save. - FSB

Saving faith is not simply a profession or an empty claim (Jas_2:14-17), nor is it merely the acceptance of a creed (Jas_2:18-20). Saving faith is that which produces an obedient life (Jas_2:21-26). - Spirit Filled Life Study Bible

save -- Deliver from God’s wrath on the day of judgment, as usually in James (Jas_1:21; Jas_4:12; Jas_5:20; and probably in Jas_5:15) - NIVZSB

Love hermeneutics @mailmandan.

J.

 

[Titus]

So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works.

Of course, that is never taught by any apostle or found anywhere in Scripture.
James not once teaches meritorious works anywhere in his epistle.
Every apostle condemns salvation by merit as the misguided Jews believed they could obtain by law keeping.

What James is teaching,
That faith that has no obedient works has no power to Justify man before God.

The works themselves are never seperate from faith.
And faith is not faith when it is absent of works(obedience).

James therefore is teaching faith justifies man.
But only true Biblical faith, which according to James is s faith that works the commandments of God, i.e. an obedient faith.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

All examples James gives of saving Biblical faith in James chapter 2.

Abraham's faith : Worked righteousness thus Justified by God
Rahab the harlot : Obeyed the instructions of Gods men because of her faith in the God of the Hebrews, thus also Justified by an obedient faith.

James 2:25,
- likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works(obedience not merit) when she received the messengers and had sent them another way

Danthemailman, don't post on my articles that I'm teaching James teaches works salvation.
James teaches the kind of faith that justifies man before God.
That is a misrepresentation of my beliefs.

Justification: Just as if I never sinned.

James chose those particular examples of people to show the kind of faith that justifies mankind.

A faith that works the commandments of God.

If you want to hear Bible stories about meritorious works THAT PLAY NO PART IN SALVATION then go to Paul's letter to the Romans.
Paul declares of Abraham's faith in Romans chapter 4 that he was justified by faith and not by meritorious works.

Meriting salvation has nothing to do with James 2. It is not the context.
Neither is the context faith only salvation apart from obedient works toward God.

James 2:20;26,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

 

[mailmandan]

Of course, that is never taught by any apostle or found anywhere in Scripture.
James not once teaches meritorious works anywhere in his epistle.
Every apostle condemns salvation by merit as the misguided Jews believed they could obtain by law keeping.

What James is teaching,
That faith that has no obedient works has no power to Justify man before God.

The works themselves are never seperate from faith.
And faith is not faith when it is absent of works(obedience).

James therefore is teaching faith justifies man.
But only true Biblical faith, which according to James is s faith that works the commandments of God, i.e. an obedient faith.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.

All examples James gives of saving Biblical faith in James chapter 2.

Abraham's faith : Worked righteousness thus Justified by God
Rahab the harlot : Obeyed the instructions of Gods men because of her faith in the God of the Hebrews, thus also Justified by an obedient faith.

James 2:25,
- likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works(obedience not merit) when she received the messengers and had sent them another way

Danthemailman, don't post on my articles that I'm teaching James teaches works salvation.
James teaches the kind of faith that justifies man before God.
That is a misrepresentation of my beliefs.

Justification: Just as if I never sinned.

James chose those particular examples of people to show the kind of faith that justifies mankind.

A faith that works the commandments of God.

If you want to hear Bible stories about meritorious works THAT PLAY NO PART IN SALVATION then go to Paul's letter to the Romans.
Paul declares of Abraham's faith in Romans chapter 4 that he was justified by faith and not by meritorious works.

Meriting salvation has nothing to do with James 2. It is not the context.
Neither is the context faith only salvation apart from obedient works toward God.

James 2:20;26,
- but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works is dead

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

THAT SUMS IT RIGHT UP.

 

[Titus]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

THAT SUMS IT RIGHT UP.

Good sound protestant reformation doctrine. Martin Luther would be proud.

You always contradict yourself but don't realize it,

yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

You admitted geniune faith is not alone.
You are trying to be saved by a disingenuous dead faith.

Faith onlyist's biggest problem is they do not know what Biblical saving faith is.

Summation is how you come to the right conclusions on all Bible subjects.
You dont cherry pick a bunch of verses that teach faith and declare that's the gospel.

Summation of all that is included in salvation is how you know how Jesus saves.

John 3:16 folks proclaim, there it is that's how we are saved.
Yet repentance is not even mentioned in John 3:16.
The churches that teach faith alone salvation ALL cherry pick the verses that supposedly agree with their teaching and ignore verses that contradict their error.

Good reason why Martin Luther wanted the book of James removed from the new testament.

 

[mailmandan]

Good sound protestant reformation doctrine. Martin Luther would be proud.

Oh brother.

You always contradict yourself but don't realize it,

How did I contradict myself?

You admitted geniune faith is not alone.

Genuine faith does not remain alone "barren of works" (James 2:14-24) yet we are still saved through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6) No contradiction. You just don't get it.

You are trying to be saved by a disingenuous dead faith.

My faith at its origin caused me to be made alive together with Christ, when I was saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:5-9) and I'm now God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that I should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10) and I have, so my faith is not dead in either sense.

Faith onlyist's biggest problem is they do not know what Biblical saving faith is.

Works-salvationists biggest problem is they do not understand the difference between "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14) and faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to accept.

Summation is how you come to the right conclusions on all Bible subjects.
You don't cherry pick a bunch of verses that teach faith and declare that's the gospel.

Properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine is how you come to the right conclusions on all Bible subjects. The Bible makes it clear in many passages of scripture that man is saved through belief/faith - "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1-2; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; 3:6-14, 26; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

Now you don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Hence, FAITH ALONE. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus, baptism? Plus, works? NO. So, then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.

*Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Summation of all that is included in salvation is how you know how Jesus saves.

Distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" a works-based false gospel is not how you know Jesus saves. It's how you know you are deceived.

John 3:16 folks proclaim, there it is that's how we are saved.

So, you reject John 3:16. That verse must be an incomplete statement for you.

Yet repentance is not even mentioned in John 3:16.

Repentance does not need to be mentioned because it already took place in the process of changing our mind and choosing to believe in Jesus for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. You place repentance "after" faith and turn it into a work for salvation through moral self-reformation, which explains your confusion.

The churches that teach faith alone salvation ALL cherry pick the verses that supposedly agree with their teaching and ignore verses that contradict their error.

My church properly harmonizes Scripture with Scripture before reaching their conclusion on doctrine, as do I.

Good reason why Martin Luther wanted the book of James removed from the new testament.

Martin Luther had been steeped into Roman Catholicism for years and most likely had a difficult time understanding the book of James. I have no problem with the book of James, and also, I am not a Lutheran.

 

[Titus]

yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

Show me where James teaches belief before any works accompany it , Justifies?
Before man or before God?

You claim James believes faith with no works saves.
Now show James teaching what you put in his mouth?

 

[Titus]

Works-salvationists biggest problem is they do not understand the difference between "faith only" per James 2:24 (empty profession of faith/dead faith) that remains "alone" - barren of works (James 2:14)

I'm not a works salvationist so you wasted your time sending me this post.
Find a works salvationist and send it to him.(catholic)

 

[mailmandan]

Show me where James teaches belief before any works accompany it , Justifies?
Before man or before God?

You claim James believes faith with no works saves.
Now show James teaching what you put in his mouth?

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

To say that James is teaching we are "accounted as righteous" by works in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6) is putting words in the mouth of James. I don't expect you to understand.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not a works salvationist so you wasted your time sending me this post.
Find a works salvationist and send it to him.(catholic)

If you believe and teach that man is saved by faith + works (even if it's only works in part) then you are a works-salvationist. I am not a faith-onlyist (per James 2:24). I am a faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (per Paul - Romans 4:5-6). I really don't expect you to understand the difference.

 

[Titus]

James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

To say that James is teaching we are "accounted as righteous" by works in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6) is putting words in the mouth of James. I don't expect you to understand.

Your only explaining your ideas of what James is saying.
I told you to quote James teaching faith before any works have been done saves us.
You failed now try and give the passage where James teaches justification before any works are done.

I'm not interested in your commentary.
Quote James saying faith apart from works justifies? Does not have to be in those exact words of course.

 

[Titus]

If you believe and teach that man is saved by faith + works (even if it's only works in part) then you are a works-salvationists. I am not a faith-onlyist (per James 2:24). I am a faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (per Paul - Romans 4:5-6). I really don't expect you to understand the difference.

All you repeatedly do with James is assume your presuppostional belief and expect me to take your word for it.

Give me some evidence that James is a faith only salvationist?
Quote him, dont give me any more of your interpretation of what you think he is teaching.

You can't give one verse in the whole book of James that even slightly indicates James believes faith without works justifies.

 

[Verily]

It seems more like James is talking to the "O vain man" regarding "faith without works" being dead whereas Paul is speaks more to receiving the very grace of God" in vain 1Cr 15:10. Since its by faith we have access into this grace by which Paul worked. Paul saying, I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Let me post that in full, he says, 1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Paul mentions this in 2 Cr 6:1 too, We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. So wouldn't that indicate that the grace of God was being received in vain (by the "O vain man" James adresses) concerning this faith (without works) which faith has access into this grace (by which their works would actually be done) as Paul put it if it had not been received in vain? Did I roll that out correctly?

 

[mailmandan]

Your only explaining your ideas of what James is saying.
I told you to quote James teaching faith before any works have been done saves us.
You failed now try and give the passage where James teaches justification before any works are done.

I'm not interested in your commentary.
Quote James saying faith apart from works justifies? Does not have to be in those exact words of course.

I have properly interpreted what James is saying in context and I also properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. *Be sure to go back and thoroughly read post #4. Your argument is moot. James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says/claims (key word) he has faith, but he has no works? (where is the evidence?) Can that faith save him? What kind of faith produces no works at all? What kind of faith is that? - Empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, the answer to James' rhetorical question is, NO. That kind of faith cannot save because that is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

I already explained to you that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) So, you fail to understand.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-6 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Is any of this sinking in yet?

I'm not interested in your eisegesis. Since James is not using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous your argument is mute. The apostle Paul clearly stated in Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: There you have it!

 

[mailmandan]

All you repeatedly do with James is assume your presuppostional belief and expect me to take your word for it.

Give me some evidence that James is a faith only salvationist?
Quote him, dont give me any more of your interpretation of what you think he is teaching.

You can't give one verse in the whole book of James that even slightly indicates James believes faith without works justifies.

Presuppositional belief? I already showed you where James said says/claims to have faith (James 2:14) and that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) You seem determined to believe that "justified by works" (James 2:24) means "accounted as righteous/saved" by works out of context and not in harmony with Romans 4:2-6.

You don't understand what "faith only" (James 2:24) means. You seem to believe that faith which produces no works in James 2:14 is just like any other faith (except for the lack of works) and since it fails to produce works it cannot save because man is saved by faith and works and not by faith (which is like any other faith) alone but that is false. James clarifies what he means by "faith only" in James 2:14 when he said says/claims to have faith but has no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Abraham was "justified" (accounted as righteous) based on his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and many years later he was "justified" (shown to be righteous) by works when he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *Perfect Harmony.*

In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Please take the time to thoroughly read over everything that I have shared with you, and I pray the Lord reveals the truth to you.

 

[Titus]

Presuppositional belief? I already showed you where James said says/claims to have faith (James 2:14) and that James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) You seem determined to believe that "justified by works" (James 2:24) means "accounted as righteous/saved" by works out of context and not in harmony with Romans 4:2-6.

You don't understand what "faith only" (James 2:24) means. You seem to believe that faith which produces no works in James 2:14 is just like any other faith (except for the lack of works) and since it fails to produce works it cannot save because man is saved by faith and works and not by faith (which is like any other faith) alone but that is false. James clarifies what he means by "faith only" in James 2:14 when he said says/claims to have faith but has no works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Abraham was "justified" (accounted as righteous) based on his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) and many years later he was "justified" (shown to be righteous) by works when he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. *Perfect Harmony.*

In James 2:21, notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Please take the time to thoroughly read over everything that I have shared with you, and I pray the Lord reveals the truth to you.

I always put in effort when you try to teach me.
I listen to what you post.

Dan, I really believe you are unaware that when you teach on James chapter 2, you always demand that we accept James is a faith only salvationist.

You set up your argument based on your presuppostional premise that James teaches we are saved by faith alone therefore we must look at what he says about works and justification through this premise.

And yes if your belief that James is a faith only salvationist is accurate then how you interpret James' teaching on works and justification has merit.

I have properly interpreted what James is saying in context

See? This is all you do, give your belief system in James and demand that we presuppose this is who James is.

I told you already, DONT GIVE ME DANTHEMAILMAN'S INTERPRETATION OF WHAT JAMES IS SAYING.

YOU JUST DID THE EXACT THING I ASKED YOU NOT TO DO.

If you want to convince me your exegesis has merit, then

Quote James teaching he is a faith onlyist for salvation.

It does not matter how James words it. Just quote the verse any verse that indicates James is a believer in faith alone salvation.

Leave your own words out of it.
Heres an example, just his words Dan,

James 1:21,
- so get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls


Simply quote him like I just did.

I dont want you to go through the work again of posting a long explanation to me in vain.
If you dont just give me James' own writing in your next post I'm not going to put in the effort and read through it.
So, for your sake dont waste your time because I'm done reading your explanation on what you think James is saying.

If you can quote James saying he believes or teaches faith alone salvation I'll repent of my error and give my life to your supposed gospel of salvation, the gospel you believe is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

We will be brothers in Christ, I will come meet you in person to thank you for playing a part in bringing me out of eternal damnation into Christ's blessed forgiveness.

 

[Johann]

I always put in effort when you try to teach me.
I listen to what you post.

Dan, I really believe you are unaware that when you teach on James chapter 2, you always demand that we accept James is a faith only salvationist.

You set up your argument based on your presuppostional premise that James teaches we are saved by faith alone therefore we must look at what he says about works and justification through this premise.

And yes if your belief that James is a faith only salvationist is accurate then how you interpret James' teaching on works and justification has merit.

@Titus, could you clarify-are you saying that in James chapter 2- faith is demonstrated through works? If so, I completely agree with you.


Hebrews 11:4-5
By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:8
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:


James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.


J.