Claimed prophetic fulfillment seems highly questionable. - Were they acquired rather than intended?

[RedFan]

I agree, I find the study of eschatology eliminating or disallowing certain interpretations of verses found in the OT.

Do you have any verses that are in question that are about events after the cross?

Are you asking about literal fulfillment of OT verses, or typological fulfillment of OT verses?

 

[grafted branch]

Are you asking about literal fulfillment of OT verses, or typological fulfillment of OT verses?

Let’s start with literal fulfillment, maybe something that some people think was fulfilled in 70AD but perhaps you don’t.

 

[St. SteVen]

What do you suppose the OT quotes were referring to if not Jesus?

It's different in every case, of course. The context would be the determinant.

This one is pretty glaring. Israel, not messiah.

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

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[St. SteVen]

A decision has to be made as to which way of interpreting is correct, I personally see the NT revealing what is hidden in the OT.

Case by case makes more sense to me. Unless we want to choose the interpretation that the OT "prophecies" were adopted rather than intended. Then, one size fits all.

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[VictoryinJesus]

Mark 14:27 NET
Then[a] Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away, for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’[b]

--- COMPARE ---

Zechariah 13:7 NET
“Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is my associate,”
says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies.
“Strike the shepherd that the flock may be scattered;[a]
I will turn my hand against the insignificant ones.

Almost afraid to reply because you’ve said “I would like to get a reaction from those more familiar with the subject.”

Still…it bugs me. It went from Matthew, to Mark, to New Testament writers, then the last quote at the bottom here ‘Is it intent, or did Jesus adopt it for his own use as if it was originally written prophetically?’ For his own use?

The above two you compare: from Mark and Zechariah. If it happened then does the make it misquoted?
Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; [35] (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
What is the above speaking of? From the quotes you quoted Old Testament and New Testament …how is either incorrect or misquoted…don’t forget the idol Shepherd that leaves the flock and Jesus Christ saying He is the True Shepherd that is …no hireling that cares not for the sheep. I remember a long time ago and I’d have to search again but there is a description in the Word of God running or scattering them off of what can’t help nor save them. Saying they won’t stay upon it any longer. So they never stay on that which is dead but scatter from it. So that they will remain on that which is Alive and able to save which is Christ. The above of “this child” will be the fall and rising up again of many …proverbs tells of Pride comes before the fall. What was crucified and buried or “put off” or “cast away” if not the idol shepherd. Other verses speak of God bringing down that which is high and lifting up that which is low. We read this coming down of those things false and a Lifting up of those things true. What was struck (pierced through) at the crucifixion if not the hirelings …idol shepherds which care not for the flock. How was the idol shepherd pierced through? I think it is because the true Shepard who cares to the sheep gave His Life for the sheep. And shit the mouth of gain sayers. What is the message of “put off” or “cast off” what Christ took to the cross and put to death? To remove it.

but it's still a fair question: Did NT writers bend OT verses to their own purposes different from their original intent? And I think your example from Mark 14:27 is probably an instance of this.

‘Did NT writers bend OT verses to their own purposes different from their original intent?’ That is a bold judgement to suggest. It must be back with better knowledge that the New Testament writers. Someone said what is in question is not really New Testament writers but how seminaries and churches and translators use this. Yet, that isn’t what it sounds like but first having the gall to question New Testament writers. Where will it end…sounds like even Christ is in question for misquoting

Assuming that Jesus did indeed speak the words in Mark 14:27 (I wasn't present. Were you? was Mark?), the "real issue" is whether Jesus was quoting Zechariah to cast himself as Shepherd and his apostles as sheep in a manner Zechariah never foresaw or intended to presage

Is it intent, or did Jesus adopt it for his own use as if it was originally written prophetically?

I get how things can come off differently organically intended. Which is the topic of this thread? I take what you said as even with the knowledge you have…you are wondering if Hesus also adores it for his own use as of it was originally written prophetically (about Him?)

 

[RedFan]

Let’s start with literal fulfillment, maybe something that some people think was fulfilled in 70AD but perhaps you don’t.

Were it not for the "flood" mentioned in Daniel 9:26, that verse would be a good candidate.

 

[grafted branch]

It's different in every case, of course. The context would be the determinant.

This one is pretty glaring. Israel, not messiah.

Matthew 2:15
And [Jesus] was there [in Egypt] until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet,
saying, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

Yea, a case by case examination is the best. If Jesus didn’t fulfill Hosea 11:1 then when did or will it be fulfilled? Do you see it as still being unfulfilled?

 

[Douggg]

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You have a bracket "[" at the bottom of all your posts - why ?

 

[grafted branch]

Were it not for the "flood" mentioned in Daniel 9:26, that verse would be a good candidate.

Not all translations use the word “flood”. The Old Greek, which I believe is the oldest known version of Daniel reads much different.



Daniel 9:26(OG) And after seven and seventy and sixty-two weeks, an anointing will be removed and will not be. And a king of nations will demolish the city and the sanctuary along with the anointed one, and his consummation will come with wrath even until the time of consummation. He will be attacked through war.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I remember a long time ago and I’d have to search again but there is a description in the Word of God running or scattering them off of what can’t help nor save them. Saying they won’t stay upon it any longer. So they never stay on that which is dead but scatter from it. So that they will remain on that which is Alive and able to save which is Christ.

Isaiah 10:20-21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. [21] The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Question: Was that the intention of the writer of the 2nd Psalm, or was the prophecy adopted?

Psalm 2:7 NIV
I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.

[

Who is the 2nd Psalm referring to then?

 

[St. SteVen]

You have a bracket "[" at the bottom of all your posts - why ?

Let's ask @BarneyFife

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[St. SteVen]

Yea, a case by case examination is the best. If Jesus didn’t fulfill Hosea 11:1 then when did or will it be fulfilled? Do you see it as still being unfulfilled?

I think it was already fulfilled. ???
Israel came out of Egypt in the Exodus.
The chapter reads like a history of Israel after the Exodus.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Who is the 2nd Psalm referring to then?

My guess is King David, but it could have many applications.

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[St. SteVen]

To be clear, I brought this topic over to the Eschatology & Prophecy Forum
because I was hoping you folks were more studied in this area than I.
I don't know what to make of the problems I see. The prophecies seem to have been
adopted from texts that were not intended for the use claimed in the NT.
Why is that?

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[grafted branch]

I think it was already fulfilled. ???
Israel came out of Egypt in the Exodus.
The chapter reads like a history of Israel after the Exodus.

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

[

Ok, great, I also think it was fulfilled in the Exodus. There are a few people who reject the exodus from Egypt (see Wikipedia). I wasn’t sure where you stand because you seem to be questioning some verses.

Since we both agree Hosea 11:1 was fulfilled once and Matthew 2:15 states another fulfillment took place, that gives us a principle in how to interpret the scriptures which is commonly called “duel fulfillment”.

There are some people who are adamant about duel fulfillment and others who reject it. I don’t want to debate duel fulfillment but if you do a search you can see the various pros and cons of this concept.

 

[Jay Ross]

Ok, great, I also think it was fulfilled in the Exodus. There are a few people who reject the exodus from Egypt (see Wikipedia). I wasn’t sure where you stand because you seem to be questioning some verses.

Since we both agree Hosea 11:1 was fulfilled once and Matthew 2:15 states another fulfillment took place, that gives us a principle in how to interpret the scriptures which is commonly called “duel fulfillment”.

There are some people who are adamant about duel fulfillment and others who reject it. I don’t want to debate duel fulfillment but if you do a search you can see the various pros and cons of this concept.

If we consider when the Book of Hosea was written, the Exodus out of Egypt is not a fulfilment of the Hosea 11:1 prophecy. However, I can understand why Hosea 11:1 was considered to be a fulfilled prophecy for Christ in that as a baby, a few days old, He was taken down to Egypt for His own safety before the family returned to the land of Israel after the death of Herod, but because Joseph did not feel that it was safe to remain close by Jerusalem, he took Mary and Jesus to Nazareth first before he returned to Jerusalem to present Jesus in the temple to the Lord as required by the Law after the time of waiting for 45 days had passed for Mary.

 

[ScottA]

37 views but no response?

[

Your premise is hard to understand. What do you mean by "acquired?"

 

[ScottA]

If the OT "prophecy" was not intended as a prophecy, then the NT writer acquired it as such.

The were prophecy. But still you are not being clear.

 

[ScottA]

What is bothering me is the apparent lack of intent by the OT writer to prophesy.
The NT writers seemed to have assigned prophetic intent to the OT quotes.

That's better!

There was intent when God told his servants the prophets to prophecy. But otherwise, many of the Old Testament writings that turned out to be prophetic, were not the result of God saying, "Go prophecy." The writers of such passages were in fact unaware and simply lived their lives unknowingly as living parables that would point to future events--pointing to Christ. This was often God's way of fulfilling His promise of, "Behold, the former things have come to pass, And new things I declare; Before they spring forth I tell you of them" (Isaiah 42:9).

This is what is meant by (and fulfills) "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Revelation 19:10).