Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Grazie.
Non sono secura se tornero.
Tutti questi debattiti mi stancano.
Troppe idee diversi.
Dove' la verita?
La verità è proprio qui, nelle Scritture, e le fonti secondarie possono essere utili, purché non siamo troppo dogmatici su ciò che NOI crediamo sia vero e sugli altri fratelli e sorelle, non solo sorelle.
I dibattiti sono buoni e utili, memorizzare le Scritture per essere pronti a dare una risposta – tutto riguarda l'apologetica e tutta la gloria al nostro Signore Cristo Gesù, senza alcun orgoglio per i nostri risultati intellettuali – ha senso?
Johann.
They make errors, too.
Irenaeus claimed Mary was the new Eve... when only the Church could be.
Adam was MARRIED to Eve.
The "Last Adam" is married to the Church! She is the "Last Eve" or "New Eve" if there is one.
And Paul even says so (2 Co 11:2).
Yet the CC went ahead and put it in their Catechism!
Yep, I don't remember Jesus quoting anything but the Scripture as His authority.
We may get some things wrong, but we're sincerely trying.
Jesus quoted from the OT..
And He left His teachings with the Apostles.
Did His teachings die with the Apostles?
Won't be responding....
'Night
Irenaeus made a mistake.
Are you saying JESUS taught Mary was the new Eve and taught His disciples that?
I reject that--based on Scripture which proves no one but the Church could be the New Eve, and Paul draws the connection himself (2 Co 11:3).
Why would you draw me away from the Apostolic dogma in Scripture to a Johnny Come Lately? Paul said wolves would rise up from the Church itself oand devour the sheep--and that happened--so how much more is it true that well-meaning men, saints, would make mistakes in teaching (which Scripture proves they did)?
@GodsGrace I think we all look for certainty, because that really gives us peace--the difference we are having is I am willing to recognize my certainty (and peace) can't come from 100% wholesale incurious unquestioning faith in the ECFs, because they made errors (as I've proven).
You apparently want to find your certainty (and peace) in them, and you want me to do the same--I can't entrust my soul to provably fallible men.
That doesn't give me peace--and it shouldn't. That is healthy (to recognize when something can mislead me--to recognize when the lug nuts on the tires are loose).
Who told you to ignore faults you yourself can recognize? To delegate your reasoning to someone else?
The Bereans were praised for NOT listening to no less than the Apostle Paul, but TESTING his claims... by looking at Scripture, the ultimate reality with authority higher than, and over, all men.
Why would you not follow that pattern and praise me, instead of finding fault with me, for doing the same?
You apparently want to find your certainty (and peace) in them, and you want me to do the same--I can't entrust my soul to provably fallible men.
That doesn't give me peace--and it shouldn't. That is healthy (to recognize when something can mislead me--to recognize when the lug nuts on the tires are loose).
Who told you to ignore faults you yourself can recognize? To delegate your reasoning to someone else?
The Bereans were praised for NOT listening to no less than the Apostle Paul, but TESTING his claims... by looking at Scripture, the ultimate reality with authority higher than, and over, all men.
Why would you not follow that pattern and praise me, instead of finding fault with me, for doing the same?
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@GodsGrace
The ECFs should be praised, and the saints looked to, reverenced and emulated--they are great examples and patterns for us (I would be accountable if I advised against such wholesome things)--still, ultimately, the last Word belongs to God's Word.
The ECFs should be praised, and the saints looked to, reverenced and emulated--they are great examples and patterns for us (I would be accountable if I advised against such wholesome things)--still, ultimately, the last Word belongs to God's Word.
@GodsGrace Don't ask me to quote my favorite ECFs, bc i don't read much, bc every time I read them in the past, most of the time, it was basically reiterating the Bible (except when it wasn't--weaving ideas they, by my reckoning, seemed to have come up with on their own).
"Well, why not just read the Bible then?" I asked myself--and so I did and do.
My favorite saints are Thomas a Kempis and Therese de Lisieux, though I don't spend much time reading nowadays. That was a while back.
Also Saint Gabriel of Georgia and Saint Paisios (EO Church).
"Well, why not just read the Bible then?" I asked myself--and so I did and do.
My favorite saints are Thomas a Kempis and Therese de Lisieux, though I don't spend much time reading nowadays. That was a while back.
Also Saint Gabriel of Georgia and Saint Paisios (EO Church).
@GodsGrace I'm thankful for you being here, bc, though we differ sometimes, we agree on some key points, and I appreciate contact with likeminded (Biblically minded) individuals. Thank you.
Your intimation that I want to skip over verses, that's what was nonsense.
Much love!
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Here is what the Bible Itself says. This is God's input on the subject.
I hope we can all receive this.
It seems to me the main concern here is that if you tell someone that they cannot become "unsaved" after being reborn, then they won't try as hard to not sin, or something like that.
This is what the Bible says:
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Everyone that has this hope purifies himself.
That's what we're talking about, right? Whether or not we are endeavoring to purify ourselves? My contention is that if you think that after God regenerates you, that you can sin your way out of the family. (Lack of faith is simply one more sin)
We want to be pure, just like Jesus is pure. Everyone who has this hope purifies themself.
What hope? And what is hope? We have this modern idea of "hope" that is somewhat wistful, Oh I hope I can go to the river this year, whatever it may be.
Biblical hope is something different. The word translated hope means to anticipate, to have an expectation. And in the Biblical usage its an outgrowth of faith.
We trust in Jesus, we believe He is true. Jesus promised to resurrect those who believe in Him. I believe in Him, and He promised resurrection, so my hope is the resurrection. I expect to be resurrected back to life by Jesus in the age to come.
Everyone who has "this hope" purifies himself.
we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
So here's my question to you. Do you believe that when you see Jesus, that you will in fact be made to be just like Him? Or do you consider that uncertain, you'd like to see it happen, but maybe it won't?
It's exactly backwards to think that I may come short of salvation, and end up losing my rebirth, losing the Holy Spirit, losing eternal life, losing Jesus, so I'll try harder to make sure that doesn't happen.
It's in knowing that Jesus is waiting for us there at the end, and when we see Him, we will in fact be like Him. And it in this expectation that we actually go on to purify ourselves.
Why the difference? In the first case, as we take care to remain saved, we put that on ourselves, our performance, which is legalism. Pay for play. And we all know we come up short. It's a faith killer.
Romans 7:5 KJV
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Law provokes sin.
Faith, on the other hand, faith and grace, these allow us to release ourselves into Jesus' power, it in His power that we walk in righteousness.
Just to restate in simple terms, According to 1 John 3, we learn that we our certain expectation to be transformed to be like Jesus when we see Him, this is what brings us to purify ourselves.
Whether or not something else seems to make sense to you, this is the plain and clear teaching of the Bible. Not my teaching. God's teaching.
Much love!
Yeah.
But that's not what we were discussing.
Have a joyous Christmas marks.
Maybe see you some time in the future....
GG
You may be mistaken on this point. I have no wish to leave of discussion of a key verse until we can reach agreement over what it says.
That doesn't mean I'm going to skip anything, only, we need to have a proper foundation.
When I'm discussing what I believe to be a plainly stated passages, and someone asserts that it actually means something different, I want to drill into that to see if it is so.
No, make no mistake, we need ALL the Scriptures if we are to know truth! But I'm not about to just say, OK, maybe it means this maybe it means that, let's just move on. No, it's too important. So I want to stick with a verse until we reach that agreement on that verse, and then move on the next, and do the same thing.
We should stick to it until we agree on truth, if at all possible.
I'm open to any range of discussion, with one exception, and that's sweeping things under the rug.
Much love!
