I don't believe that is true. The 10 horns showed themselfs in Daniel chapter 7 after the cross. The 10 horns came out of the 4th beast of pagan Rome. And since pagan Rome was slain and its body was destroyed (Daniel 7:11), and that occurred around 476 AD, that means the 10 horns were already on the scene while they (pagan Rome) were still alive.
Revelation 13:17-18 (666)
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ewq1938
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The 4th beast is destroyed completely. There is nothing in the text that symbolic parts of the body live on like ten horns existing after the beast is partially destroyed. You are using eisegesis which means to force what you believe onto the text which is why you have some parts of the beast living on when the text does not say that.
Daniels 4th beast is not Rome, and not the RCC either. This beast has an updated description in Rev and it so far has not even risen to power yet.
Sorry to disagree, but the 4th beast is indeed Rome - specifically, pagan Rome. And 7:11 does tell us he will be slain and his body is destroyed. I don't know who you could possibly think is the 4th beast if it is not pagan Rome. They certainly were in power at the end of the 70 weeks of years prophecy which spoke exclusively to the restoration of His people and Jerusalem from Babylon. They certainly were in power at the time of the cross. They certainly continued during their perscution of the Christians for almost 200 years, they certainly were in power at the time of Constantine when he changed the Sabbath, they certainly were in power when he also declared Christianity an acceptable religion throughout the kingdom, they certainly were in power up to the time they were defeated by both internal and external forces by / around the time of 476 AD, thet were no longer the dominate power after this but would be proceeded by papal Rome who, within 100 years or less, be given official power over the Christian church by Justianian and they would now start to amass power over both all religious and secular matters throughout the empire.... Further, these same 10 horns, who came out of pagan Rome would now be seen to be sitting atop the 4th beast - meaning, they had also come to power among / with the 4th beast of papal Rome. Please consider the above and return once more to chapter 7 and insert the names of these actors in their appropriate places and see if they do not match our historical records PERFECTLY.
ewq1938
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That happens t a coming of God, and God's people inheriting an eternal kingdom. That didn't happen and Rome was not defeated at a time God came from heaven and gave his people an eternal kingdom.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
When did God come and have such a throne judgment?
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Teh 3 kingdoms before the rise of ome were allowed to continue to exist after a throne judgment by God? How is that history?
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
No such kingdom has been established on Earth yet.
Daniel's 4th kingdom cannot be Rome because none of the events written have taken place.
I would respectfully ask that you give those thoughts at least more than 30 seconds before you respond and tell me how they do not make sense or they are not true. Please give yourself a little time to research each verse ... I can assure you we can go through each and every verse to DISCUSS, NOT DICTATE OR TELL, and you can always stop at any time.... But the most important thing is to begin in Chapter 2 because that is God's blueprint for the book of Daniel... there is nothing that is going to happen in the book of Daniel that contradicts chapter 2... and I have read all the interpretations on chapter 2 and they have not been interpreted correctly - they have failed to consider the Messiah in the book of Daniel but instead, they attempt to match Daniel to our history books.... Daniel is not a history book.
ewq1938
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Yet you treat it as it is. I have proven the 4th beast cannot be Rome because nothing matches and there is nothing in the text about part of the 4th beast continuing. You didn't address anything I presented because it disproves what was said about it and I know that is shocking but maybe in time you will see nothing matches an identification to Rome.
Galgal
Member
No. So you won't be able to explain:
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (Revelation 17:10)
And you won't be able to explain what 3 horns disappeared, why and where.
And you can't explain the fatal wound on the beast's head. On which head of the seven? What are the names of the 7 heads?
What is the name of the beast that we are commanded to count?
Well, I can’t tell you the Revelation 17:10 reference is because I am currently at chapter 15…. Maybe next week.
I haven’t heard no problem identifying either the 10 horns or the 3 ths were plucked up since that puzzle is found in Daniel (but please - can’t identify them at this time- it would set off a small war. Heck, I have seen some get wonky on the identification of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, which is absolutely clear as a bell - my opinion).
And I believe your last reference is also in the latter chapters of Revelation… so I am not there yet.
But what is the thing you are disagreeing with? Is it that the sea beast and the little horn are one and the same? Cause they are!
Galgal
Member
There is a difference between the Antichrist man (little horn) and the entire world civilization.
The Antichrist man in Revelation 13 is the "image of the beast." The Antichrist man in Revelation 13 is the "image of the beast." There is a difference between the "image of the beast" and the "beast from the sea." Just as there is a difference between Jesus and the Father.
I know you will not agree with this but the little horn of Daniel is the papacy. He is also the sea beast in Revelation. The red dragon is of course Satan. There is no literal anti-Christ figure. It is the little horn that is the evil one.
CTK, the little horn is a singular man, not a office of successive men. i.e. not the papacy.
proof:
Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
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Galgal, the Antichrist is not the image of the beast of Revelation 13.
The little horn person will go through 5 stages before Jesus breaks him.
the little horn > then the prince who shall come > then the Antichrist > then the revealed man of sin > and finally the beast-king
In Revelation 13, the little horn person is in stage 5 the beast-king. His kingdom, also referred to as a beast in Revelation 13:1-2, will be the EU, the Roman Empire manifested in the end times. The composite makeup (the leopard, the bear, the lion) represents that the EU will control the territories of the three ancient kingdoms - eventually. The EU doesn't right now, but will following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39.
In Revelation 13:3, the mortally wounded but healed head, will be little horn entering his beast-king stage, as dictator of the EU.
The image of the beast-king, a statue image of him, will be placed on the temple mount as the abomination of desolation.
The statue image will come to life and speak because Satan who in Revelation 12:7-9 will be cast down to earth, with just a time, times, half time left - will enter and indwell the statue. And everyone who will worship the statue will be unknowingly be worshiping the dragon - Satan.
So there are three main villainous characters that last 42 months in Revelation 13 before Jesus returns and deals with them:
1. the beast-king - dictator of the EU
2, the false prophet - religious promoter of the beast-king
3. the dragon - Satan - who will indwell the statue image of the beast-king.
The five stages that the little horn goes through, to eventually end up as the beast-king are shown on my chart below. Being the Antichrist in Stage 3 will last about three years, ending when in Stage 4 he reveals himself as the man of sin.
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There you go again Dougg with this chart of yours. Regarding your comment above the papacy is not the little horn, and you quoted 8:25 as proof, I would ask that you consider just how accurate that verse is to the papacy. Not only does that verse point to the papacy but the following are also speaking of him.
Chapter 7 in Daniel:
23“Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute[j] the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Chapter 8 in Daniel
23“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce [k]features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy [l]fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25“Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his [m]rule;
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human [n]means.
The little horn" in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 does refer to "him" but it aligns with a symbolic and prophetic pattern commonly found in Scripture. In prophecy, individual symbols often represent broader systems, entities, or powers, but they are personified to emphasize key characteristics or focal points of leadership.
- The beasts in Daniel 7 represent kingdoms, but they act as individuals, rising, speaking, and having distinct characteristics.
- In Daniel 8, the ram and goat symbolize empires (Medo-Persia and Greece), but their actions are described as personal (e.g., the goat "ran at him with furious power").
- The "little horn" is referred to as "him" representing his leadership and actions, emphasizing the central authority or figure associated with his power. In the case of the papacy, this central figure would be the pope, who serves as the visible head of the institution.
- The papacy is not a single individual but a system with a succession of leaders (popes) who embody its authority and represent its doctrines and actions. Referring to the little horn as "him" highlights the continuity of this central figure throughout history.
- In Daniel 7:8, the little horn has "eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words." This imagery suggests human characteristics (e.g., leadership, intellect, speech), aligning with the role of the pope as the figurehead of the papal system.
- The little horn’s actions, such as persecuting the saints, changing times and laws, and exalting itself above God (Daniel 7:25), match historical attributes of the papal system during the Middle Ages and beyond.
- Referring to the little horn as "him" focuses on the personal nature of its claims and actions:
- The pope is seen as the vicar of Christ, claiming spiritual and temporal authority.
- Changes to God’s law (e.g., altering the Sabbath to Sunday) were made under the authority of the papacy.
- Persecution of dissenters during the Inquisition and Reformation was carried out under the papal system but often in the name of specific popes.
- In Revelation 13, the sea beast, to me, is also the papal system, yet it is described with personal traits, such as speaking blasphemies and making war with the saints. This parallels the "little horn" in Daniel.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 refers to the "man of sin" who exalts himself above God. This applies to the papacy, the language focuses on the role of leadership within the broader system.
Dougg, it would not matter how much information is given to you, the ONLY thing you can see is the chart in front of you.... you are a prisoner to the chart and interpretation of your own making.... You are simply so proud of it you can't take your eyes off of it...... Dougg, best wishes always.... to you and your charts.
CTK, in Revelation 13, the beast rising up out of the sea has this composite make up...
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
How does that visual make up of the beast that John saw apply to the papal system ?
The first three beasts in Daniel 7 were like...
a lion
a bear
a leopard
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Galgal
Member
Chapter 7:
11“I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
As I had mentioned to you before, the 4th beast of pagan Rome was slain and its body destroyed. This was approximately 476 AD. The "rest of the beasts" - those that were under the control of pagan Rome - the first 3 of Babylon , Medes-Persia, and Greece, would continue but they would never again return to the power they once had. And within 50 years or so, papal Rome would succeed pagan Rome and obtain power over the Christian church as well as secular matters. Now, the little horn who once was found to "come out of the 4th beast" (7:8), would rise to the top of the beast (7:20, 7:24) will "come up" from the beast. Now, the little horn sits atop the 4th beast kingdom. It is symbolic language to reveal the transition of the little horn out of pagan Rome (its beginning) to the top where it will reign...
The beast in Revelation 13:5 in the vision John had was given power to continue 42 months. How does that apply to the papacy ?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
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Before I answer more of your questions.... tell me your thoughts on what I have already provided you....
Ronald David Bruno
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Arabic phrase, Bi-smi llāh; بِسْمِ ٱللَّٰهِ, "In the name of Allah" along with crossed swords (a symbol for the Muslim Brotherhood
Resembles the koine Greek number 666.
It could be John was not fiving us a number at all. Maybe he saw these symbols resembling Greeks numbers, not knowing what they meant or that theybwerenif another language? Priohets seeing visions of future events do not always understand what they are writing. Imagine seeing modern civilizations and technologies 2000 years in the future. Islam did not begin until five centuries later too.
Resembles the koine Greek number 666.
It could be John was not fiving us a number at all. Maybe he saw these symbols resembling Greeks numbers, not knowing what they meant or that theybwerenif another language? Priohets seeing visions of future events do not always understand what they are writing. Imagine seeing modern civilizations and technologies 2000 years in the future. Islam did not begin until five centuries later too.
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