Israel

[quietthinker]

We are returning to topic...

The authority of the Old Covenant priesthood was removed when the Veil was ripped from the top.

God was in effect desecrating the second temple indicating an end to temple worship and the beginning of His indwelling believers as His living temple.

Ahhh, returning to topic!.....isn't that why they sidelined Nicodemus when he stuck up for Jesus at his arraignment. They were returning to topic.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ahhh, returning to topic!.....isn't that why they sidelined Nicodemus when he stuck up for Jesus at his arraignment. They were returning to topic.

You seem adept at insinuating evil intent when the discussion deviates from your pleasure...

I started the thread and I have a topic to discuss - that is hardly pharisaical.

 

[quietthinker]

You seem adept at insinuating evil intent when the discussion deviates from your pleasure...

I started the thread and I have a topic to discuss - that is hardly pharisaical.

The fact is Carl, you ramble on while my contribution is but a squeak....yet in this case, when I participate and try to flesh out conclusions drawn, you don't like the input and use 'returning to topic' as an excuse to avoid addressing questions asked.

 

[Ritajanice]

We are returning to topic...

The authority of the Old Covenant priesthood was removed when the Veil was ripped from the top.

God was in effect desecrating the second temple indicating an end to temple worship and the beginning of His indwelling believers as His living temple.

Excellent ! Amen!

 

[Carl Emerson]

The fact is Carl, you ramble on while my contribution is but a squeak....yet in this case, when I participate and try to flesh out conclusions drawn, you don't like the input and use 'returning to topic' as an excuse to avoid addressing questions asked.

Questions on topic are welcome if they relate to Christian support for the Third Temple.

Kindly repeat if you meet this criteria and I have miss-understood.

 

[Jay Ross]

Questions on topic are welcome if they relate to Christian support for the Third Temple.

But Jesus told us in Luke:14 that the Jews will not have the means to rebuild the temple and that they will become the laughingstock for all the nations that live around Jerusalem.

In fact, the attempt by the Jews to rebuild the "Temple" will give cause for all of the kings of the earth to assemble at Armageddon for a last-ditch attempt to wipe out all of the Jews that live in the Land of Canaan. Sadly, this gathering of the kings of the earth will become the fulfilment of Isaiah 24:21-22.

Sadly, our Christian support for the third temple to be built by the Jews will be considered to be sin on the part of Christians who support the rebuilding of the third Temple.

We really need to consider why we want to third temple to be built. I believe that there is a mistaken belief by these "Christians" that for the Latter Days of God's planned events, that the Temple needs to be rebuilt. What foolish logic are they exhibiting on their part. That God needs our help for His Latter-Day Prophecies to be fulfilled through our interference in helping out for them to become a reality.

I just cannot understand why we must act God Like for God's purposes to be fulfilled.

 

[quietthinker]

Questions on topic are welcome if they relate to Christian support for the Third Temple.

Kindly repeat if you meet this criteria and I have miss-understood.

I can see you are an intelligent person Carl.....and yes you have misunderstood....and it appears deliberately so because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to the reader,

I believe the Israel we have today has many different people in it; and there is nothing in scripture that has to deal with the material place known as Israel. Israel and its lands were destroyed by fire in 70Ad and sometime in 147ad or somewhere along those lines all the roads which once was; were destroyed and uprooted. All that matters today is being part of the spiritual kingdom known as the Heavenly Jerusalem.

“No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NLT‬‬

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sadly, our Christian support for the third temple to be built by the Jews will be considered to be sin on the part of Christians who support the rebuilding of the third Temple.

Can you explain this a little more please.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But Jesus told us in Luke:14 that the Jews will not have the means to rebuild the temple and that they will become the laughingstock for all the nations that live around Jerusalem.

Please give precise scriptural quote...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello to the reader,

I believe the Israel we have today has many different people in it; and there is nothing in scripture that has to deal with the material place known as Israel. Israel and its lands were destroyed by fire in 70Ad and sometime in 147ad or somewhere along those lines all the roads which once was; were destroyed and uprooted. All that matters today is being part of the spiritual kingdom known as the Heavenly Jerusalem.

“No, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to countless thousands of angels in a joyful gathering. You have come to the assembly of God’s firstborn children, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God himself, who is the judge over all things. You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect. You have come to Jesus, the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks of forgiveness instead of crying out for vengeance like the blood of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12‬:‭22‬-‭24‬ ‭NLT‬‬

There is a matter that you might not have considered - Paul spoke fondly of his kinsfolk and the expectation and hope that they would be saved. Further the gathering back to the land after dispersion is mentioned by the prophets. Indeed as predicted the Nation of Israel was 'born in a day' through the Balfour Declaration.
If there is then a massive revival among Jews, Jerusalem could become the physical focal point to which peoples from all nations would gather for worship.

This does not compete with your good reminder of the heavenly reality from Hebrews 12.

We may yet see significant events which establish Jerusalem as a centre of true worship in this age.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I can see you are an intelligent person Carl.....and yes you have misunderstood....and it appears deliberately so because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Can you return the good will I have extended to you and clearly state your question if it fits the criteria.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Carl Emerson,

Jesus stated people would worship the Father in spirit and truth though.

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah​

John 4:1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.

5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.

10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”

13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”

15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”

16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”

17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”

Jesus said to her, “You have well said, ‘I have no husband,’ 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”

19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”

26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

I love all of you people on this forum site, but I cannot just take peoples' word for it. Jesus himself stated in verse 21 to the woman, "Believe me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father."

There has to be some important reason why its needed for the reading of the Bible, perhaps it's truth that will set people free from the notions of which peoples conceive that come from this world, and not from the Lord himself. However, Carl, you are free to believe however you want to believe, as it's not something that affects my livelihood in the end. I just like to encourage people to think for themselves, and to choose test things out for themselves, or not to do so.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hello @Carl Emerson,

Jesus stated people would worship the Father in spirit and truth though.

A Samaritan Woman Meets Her Messiah​

I love all of you people on this forum site, but I cannot just take peoples' word for it. Jesus himself stated in verse 21 to the woman, "Believe me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father."

There has to be some important reason why its needed for the reading of the Bible, perhaps it's truth that will set people free from the notions of which peoples conceive that come from this world, and not from the Lord himself. However, Carl, you are free to believe however you want to believe, as it's not something that affects my livelihood in the end. I just like to encourage people to think for themselves, and to choose test things out for themselves, or not to do so.

Hi Matthew, thanks for your input.

I seems to me that Jesus spoke of the birth of the Church in reply to the Samaritan Woman.

So this prophesy was fulfilled shortly after it was spoken and was accurate.

However matters concerning the return to the Land and a future revival among Jews would seem to be a different issue.

 

[quietthinker]

Can you return the good will I have extended to you and clearly state your question if it fits the criteria.

You have access to our conversation. Go back, read from post #181 to get context.

 

[Jay Ross]

Can you explain this a little more please.

If we endorse the Jewish belief that if they rebuild the temple in Jerusalem that they can force God to embrace them, in other words by acting God like they can get God to do what they want Him to.

If we as Christians support the Jewish rebuilding of the temple then we will have joined them in their sin of turning away from God and acting God like in our endorsement of their rebuilding the temple.

What God wants the Jewish people to do is to repent of their fathers' sin of continual idolatrous worship over the past four ages as well as repenting of their sin of also indulging in their own Idolatrous Worship.

 

[Jay Ross]

Please give precise scriptural quote...

Carl, it is sad that you need me to provide a precise scriptural quote, when you consider yourself to be learned about the things of God and the scriptures.

Luke 14:25-35: - Leaving All to Follow Christ​

(Matt 10:34-39)​

​

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. ​

​

Tasteless Salt Is Worthless
(Matt 5:13; Mark 9:50)​

​

34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"​

NKJV​

Now in reading this passage we should consider what is contained in Isaiah 5:1-7

Isaiah 5:1-7: - God's Disappointing Vineyard​

5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​

A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​

​

My Well-beloved has a vineyard​

On a very fruitful hill.​

2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​

And planted it with the choicest vine.​

He built a tower in its midst,​

And also made a winepress in it;​

So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

But it brought forth wild grapes.​

​

3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,​

Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.​

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard​

That I have not done in it?​

Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​

I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​

And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​

6 I will lay it waste;​

It shall not be pruned or dug,​

But there shall come up briers and thorns.​

I will also command the clouds​

That they rain no rain on it."​

​

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​

And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​

He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​

For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.​

NKJV​

Now in this passage from Isaiah it clearly shows that the watch tower that God built in the centre of the vineyard was His temple.

God's promise to Israel when He begins gathering them to Himself is that He will plant them in His fertile field/soil and that He will teach them on the religion of Israel based on the foundation stone that will come down out of heave during the time of these kings and that this stone will become the largest religion/mountain in all of the earth.

Carl, we need more than just a linear understanding of the scripture and that requires those who are called after His name to have ears to hear and eyes to be able to see.

Shalom

 

[Carl Emerson]

Carl, it is sad that you need me to provide a precise scriptural quote, when you consider yourself to be learned about the things of God and the scriptures.

​

Luke 14:25-35: - Leaving All to Follow Christ​

​

(Matt 10:34-39)

​

​

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it — 29 lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' 31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple. ​

​

Tasteless Salt Is Worthless
(Matt 5:13; Mark 9:50)​

​

​

34 "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? 35 It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill, but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"​

​

NKJV​

Now in reading this passage we should consider what is contained in Isaiah 5:1-7

Isaiah 5:1-7: - God's Disappointing Vineyard​

5:1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved​

A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:​

​

My Well-beloved has a vineyard​

On a very fruitful hill.​

2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,​

And planted it with the choicest vine.​

He built a tower in its midst,​

And also made a winepress in it;​

So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

But it brought forth wild grapes.​

​

3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,​

Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.​

4 What more could have been done to My vineyard​

That I have not done in it?​

Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,​

Did it bring forth wild grapes?​

5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:​

I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;​

And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.​

6 I will lay it waste;​

It shall not be pruned or dug,​

But there shall come up briers and thorns.​

I will also command the clouds​

That they rain no rain on it."​

​

7 For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel,​

And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.​

He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;​

For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.​

NKJV​

Now in this passage from Isaiah it clearly shows that the watch tower that God built in the centre of the vineyard was His temple.

God's promise to Israel when He begins gathering them to Himself is that He will plant them in His fertile field/soil and that He will teach them on the religion of Israel based on the foundation stone that will come down out of heave during the time of these kings and that this stone will become the largest religion/mountain in all of the earth.

Carl, we need more than just a linear understanding of the scripture and that requires those who are called after His name to have ears to hear and eyes to be able to see.

Shalom

No need for sadness... I read Luke 14 carefully and didn't see any direct references to the temple.

However the fundamental principles apply in a broader sense for sure.

You know it would be a lot more pleasant if folks dealt with the subject matter rather than knocking the person who raises the issue.

Bringing light to an issue is a collective exercise and I appreciate everybody's offering.

 

[Jay Ross]

Can you explain this a little more please.

Please give precise scriptural quote...

No need for sadness... I read Luke 14 carefully and didn't see any direct references to the temple.

However the fundamental principles apply in a broader sense for sure.

You know it would be a lot more pleasant if folks dealt with the subject matter rather than knocking the person who raises the issue.

Bringing light to an issue is a collective exercise and I appreciate everybody's offering.

Carl, as a supposed teacher, did you not see the reference to the Armageddon judgement as well, in the portion of Luke 14 that I had quoted. That the Jewish attempt to rebuild the temple will be the trigger for the Little Horn to gather an army to go up against God's Temple and His earthly Host, for a last ditched attempt to fulfil the Daniel 8 prophecy before the allotted time span, of the 2,300 years, is completed. That Isaiah 24:21-22 will play out before us at Armageddon for the gathered kings of the earth. Did you not see that Israel will seek the terms of peace from the king judging the gathered kings of the earth as well as Paul's statement in Romans 11:25b-26 that after the fulness of the Gentiles is completed, that all of Israel will be saved.

Have you not read that when God gathers the Israelites to Himself, that He will place/plant them in His fertile field/soil and will teach them on the religion of Israel. Have you not read in Genesis 12:3 the following: -

Genesis 12:3: - 3 I will bless those who bless you,​

And I will curse him who curses you;​

And through you all the families inhabiting my fertile soil shall be blessed."​

where only those who inhabit God's fertile soil/field will be blessed through Abraham's descendants.

In the passage from Luke that I posted, did you not see that Israel will be discarded if Israel has lost it saltiness. A harsh judgement if Israel does not stand up to be redeemed by God in the Last Generation of time.

Carl, I do not let my feelings get in the way of discovering God's End Time purposes. What I am learning confronts me every time I gain an expanded understanding of God plans during the Latter Days.

Shalom

PS: - I will not attempt to stop Israel from rebuilding the Temple, nor will I support them to do so because in their future attempt to rebuild the temple, they are acting in their own strength, just like they did when some of the Israelites returned to the land of Canaan in 1948 as God had foretold in Genesis 15:16, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac.

 

[quietthinker]

Carl, as a supposed teacher, did you not see the reference to the Armageddon judgement as well, in the portion of Luke 14 that I had quoted. That the Jewish attempt to rebuild the temple will be the trigger for the Little Horn to gather an army to go up against God's Temple and His earthly Host, for a last ditched attempt to fulfil the Daniel 8 prophecy before the allotted time span, of the 2,300 years, is completed. That Isaiah 24:21-22 will play out before us at Armageddon for the gathered kings of the earth. Did you not see that Israel will seek the terms of peace from the king judging the gathered kings of the earth as well as Paul's statement in Romans 11:25b-26 that after the fulness of the Gentiles is completed, that all of Israel will be saved.

Have you not read that when God gathers the Israelites to Himself, that He will place/plant them in His fertile field/soil and will teach them on the religion of Israel. Have you not read in Genesis 12:3 the following: -

Genesis 12:3: - 3 I will bless those who bless you,​

And I will curse him who curses you;​

And through you all the families inhabiting my fertile soil shall be blessed."​

where only those who inhabit God's fertile soil/field will be blessed through Abraham's descendants.

In the passage from Luke that I posted, did you not see that Israel will be discarded if Israel has lost it saltiness. A harsh judgement if Israel does not stand up to be redeemed by God in the Last Generation of time.

Carl, I do not let my feelings get in the way of discovering God's End Time purposes. What I am learning confronts me every time I gain an expanded understanding of God plans during the Latter Days.

Shalom

PS: - I will not attempt to stop Israel from rebuilding the Temple, nor will I support them to do so because in their future attempt to rebuild the temple, they are acting in their own strength, just like they did when some of the Israelites returned to the land of Canaan in 1948 as God had foretold in Genesis 15:16, some 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac.

Whether Israel builds a temple or not is irrelevant. Focusing on this become a smokescreen and eclipses that which really matters.

Jay, I can see your paradigm is set to interpret as you do, however I feel you have missed the main thrust of scripture when it comes to marrying OT prophecies and the reality of Jesus.