God begets God?

[Behold]

That’s right. Joseph is not Jesus’ biological father.

And Mary's blood never ran in the veins of the God man, Jesus.

So, that's interesting, isn't it.

God didn’t beget himself.

"God became a man"... as "The Word became flesh"> .and "the Word was God":... in John 1:1, and this same "created the world.. In John 1:10.

Do you believe that Jewish monotheists murdered God?

""Jesus came into this world to save sinners"", and to do that, He offered Himself as a living sacrifice.... so that by His Cross, God can reconcile "all who will believe in Jesus",........... back unto Himself, = "eternal Spiritual Union"... with "God who is A Spirit".

Jesus is the 2nd Adam, who came to restore unto all of us, what 1st Adam lost for all of us.

1st Adam is the "fall of us all".. and 2nd Adam, Jesus, is the recovering of that lost spiritual union for : "all who will believe, shall be saved".

 

[Matthias]

No one has ever murdered God. No one will ever murder God. God cannot be murdered. God is inherently immortal.

It’s astonishing to me that this needs to be said to Christians.

 

[David in NJ]

”God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.” That’s what you’ve presented to me. I reject that out of hand.

@Johann wrote to me, just as he said in post #36, but in opposition to what you presented for my consideration. He should have written to you, not me. I agree with much of what he wrote in post #31.

God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.”

"Today, if you hear His Voice" = Wake UP to Righteousness = Luke 20:9-16

Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out.

“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son.
Probably they will respect him when they see him.’
But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying,
‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’
So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”

 

[Matthias]

God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.”

"Today, if you hear His Voice" = Wake UP to Righteousness = Luke 20:9-16

Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time. Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the vinedressers beat him and sent him away empty-handed. Again he sent another servant; and they beat him also, treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. And again he sent a third; and they wounded him also and cast him out.

“Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son.
Probably they will respect him when they see him.’
But when the vinedressers saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying,
‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.’
So they cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do to them?
He will come and destroy those vinedressers and give the vineyard to others.”

Thanks.

***

@Johann, does this persuade you that “God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists?”

 

[David in NJ]

No one has ever murdered God. No one will ever murder God. God cannot be murdered. God is inherently immortal.

TRUTH = the IMMORTAL ELOHIM cannot be killed and can never die for Elohim is SPIRIT !!!

However, the Word that was/is God came to earth and became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
and killed the Prince of life

 

[Matthias]

TRUTH = the IMMORTAL ELOHIM cannot be killed and can never die for Elohim is SPIRIT !!!

Full stop. God cannot be murdered. God cannot die. God has not died. God will never die.

God did not die for you, nor for anyone else. His Son, a human person, did.

However, the Word that was/is God came to earth and became flesh.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
but a body You prepared for Me.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
and killed the Prince of life

 

[Matthias]

“God begets God analogy.” - > bad analogy

“God was murdered by Jewish monotheists.” -> bad theology

Jesus of Nazareth, himself a Jewish monotheist, the Messiah, Son of God, was crucified by the pagan Romans (not by Jewish monotheists) and died. Three days later he was bodily resurrected back to life by God.

 

[David in NJ]

Full stop. God cannot be murdered. God cannot die. God has not died. God will never die.

God did not die for you, nor for anyone else. His Son, a human person, did.

STOP

You are denying the TRUTH in my Post where i specifically said:
the IMMORTAL ELOHIM cannot be killed and can never die for Elohim is SPIRIT

His Son, a human person, did.

the only begotten Son of God was not born of the seed of Adam

The Word that was God became flesh and dwelt among us = Gospel of John chapter 1


And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

 

[Matthias]

STOP

You are denying the TRUTH in my Post where i specifically said:
the IMMORTAL ELOHIM cannot be killed and can never die for Elohim is SPIRIT


the only begotten Son of God was not born of the seed of Adam

The Word that was God became flesh and dwelt among us = Gospel of John chapter 1


And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also,
that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Your post contains some truth. I’ve acknowledged as truthful those parts which I see clearly align with scripture.

 

[Behold]

No one has ever murdered God. No one will ever murder God. God cannot be murdered. God is inherently immortal.

Jesus was not murdered.

Jesus said..>>"no person takes my life.....i lay it down willingly" "I have the power to lay it down, and i have the POWER to take it up again".

A.) "power to Take it up again".....is the power of Resurrection.

John 11:25.....Jesus said... "I AM... .the .. .Resurrection and The Life."..

Notice again = "I AM"... and that is God's name for Himself.......... that He gave to Moses.... "I Am, that I AM".

 

[Johann]

Thanks.

***

@Johann, does this persuade you that “God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists?”

Only problem I have with you @Matthias is that you don't believe in Messiah's pre-existence-correct?

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Your post contains some truth. I’ve acknowledged as truthful those parts which I see clearly align with scripture.

Do you see anything in Post 49 that seems to not align with Scripture???

 

[Matthias]

Only problem I have with you @Matthias is that you don't believe in Messiah's pre-existence-correct?

J.

I do believe in Messiah’s preexistence.

Are you sure that’s the only problem you have with me? I haven’t forgotten that you told me that you don’t believe what I believe is a salvation issue. But on the other hand, neither have I forgotten that you said to me that a person who believes what I believe does not believe the New Testament.

My position is that not believing the New Testament is a salvation issue.

 

[Matthias]

Do you see anything in Post 49 that seems to not align with Scripture???

Post #49 is my response to your post #48 in particular, and all of your posts in this thread, in general.

 

[David in NJ]

Post #49 is my response to your post #48 in particular, and all of your posts in this thread, in general.

i meant Post 48

In Post 48 = Truth or not, if not, please explain why

 

[Matthias]

i meant Post 48

In Post 48 = Truth or not, if not, please explain why

I don’t think you said anything different in post #48 than what you’ve said in previous posts. Did I miss something new? If I have, please point it out to me.

I will agree with you as much as I’m able to. No man can reasonably ask more of another than that.

 

[Johann]

I do believe in Messiah’s preexistence.

You do?

Traditional Jewish monotheists do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus in the way Christian theology does.

1. Jewish Understanding of Monotheism:
God's Uniqueness: In Judaism, the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) proclaims, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

This central tenet emphasizes the absolute unity and indivisibility of God.

Rejection of Divine Incarnation: Judaism rejects the idea of any human being, including Jesus, being divine or preexistent. The concept of God taking human form is inconsistent with Jewish theology.

2. Jesus in Jewish Thought:
Historical Jesus: Jewish thought generally regards Jesus as a historical figure, potentially a teacher or rabbi, but not as the Son of God or a divine being.

Messianic Expectations: Jewish monotheists await a Messiah who is entirely human, chosen by God to restore Israel and bring peace. This figure does not preexist creation but is seen as a future earthly redeemer.

3. Preexistence in Christian Theology:
The Christian doctrine of Jesus’ preexistence is rooted in passages such as John 1:1-3 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God") and Philippians 2:6-7, which describe Jesus existing before His incarnation.
This contrasts with Jewish beliefs, as Judaism does not interpret its scriptures in a way that supports the preexistence of the Messiah.

4. Jewish Interpretation of Key Scriptures:
Genesis 1:26 ("Let us make man in our image"): While Christians may see this as evidence of a plural aspect to God, Jewish interpretations often see it as God speaking to His heavenly court or using a royal "we."

Messianic Prophecies: Passages like Isaiah 9:6 or Micah 5:2, which Christians may interpret as references to Jesus’ preexistence, are generally understood by Jewish scholars in a different, non-divine, or historical context.

5. Summary:
Jewish monotheists, adhering to strict monotheism, do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus or any concept that would compromise God’s indivisible unity. The idea of Jesus as a preexistent divine being is a cornerstone of Christian theology but remains fundamentally incompatible with Jewish beliefs.

What do you make of New Testament verses that clearly demonstrate the Messiah is God?

J.

 

[Matthias]

You do?

Yes. We’ve discussed it before. You believe in literal preexistence; I believe in notional (also called ideal) preexistence. Remember? I read the exact same verses you do. We don’t read them through the same lens.

Traditional Jewish monotheists do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus in the way Christian theology does.

1. Jewish Understanding of Monotheism:
God's Uniqueness: In Judaism, the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) proclaims, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."

This central tenet emphasizes the absolute unity and indivisibility of God.

Rejection of Divine Incarnation: Judaism rejects the idea of any human being, including Jesus, being divine or preexistent. The concept of God taking human form is inconsistent with Jewish theology.

2. Jesus in Jewish Thought:
Historical Jesus: Jewish thought generally regards Jesus as a historical figure, potentially a teacher or rabbi, but not as the Son of God or a divine being.

Messianic Expectations: Jewish monotheists await a Messiah who is entirely human, chosen by God to restore Israel and bring peace. This figure does not preexist creation but is seen as a future earthly redeemer.

3. Preexistence in Christian Theology:
The Christian doctrine of Jesus’ preexistence is rooted in passages such as John 1:1-3 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God") and Philippians 2:6-7, which describe Jesus existing before His incarnation.
This contrasts with Jewish beliefs, as Judaism does not interpret its scriptures in a way that supports the preexistence of the Messiah.

4. Jewish Interpretation of Key Scriptures:
Genesis 1:26 ("Let us make man in our image"): While Christians may see this as evidence of a plural aspect to God, Jewish interpretations often see it as God speaking to His heavenly court or using a royal "we."

Messianic Prophecies: Passages like Isaiah 9:6 or Micah 5:2, which Christians may interpret as references to Jesus’ preexistence, are generally understood by Jewish scholars in a different, non-divine, or historical context.

5. Summary:
Jewish monotheists, adhering to strict monotheism, do not believe in the preexistence of Jesus or any concept that would compromise God’s indivisible unity. The idea of Jesus as a preexistent divine being is a cornerstone of Christian theology but remains fundamentally incompatible with Jewish beliefs.

I believe Jesus is divine, that he is godlike.

What do you make of New Testament verses that clearly demonstrate the Messiah is God?

J.

I accept and believe them.

“Jesus is God” doesn’t have to conflict with strict Jewish monotheism. The key for me in preserving it is applying the Jewish law of agency. I posted a very short article on agency in post #28. It won”t take people more than just a couple of minutes to read it. Have you had time to read it?

 

[Matthias]

I’m providing a link to more in depth paper on the law of agency in scripture than the short article I posted in post #28 @Johann. It’s a pdf which you can access at no cost.

http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Raymond%20Essoe%20--%20Shaliah.pdf

It will take you a while to read through all of the examples, if you decide to do so.

Whether you find it persuasive or not, you’ll gain a greater understanding of what I believe and why I believe it.

 

[Matthias]

My position is that not believing the New Testament is a salvation issue.

I’ve gone on record @Johann. Believing the New Testament isn’t optional. Not believing the New Testament is a salvation issue.

Are you willing to go on record? Are you willing to say: “Not believing the New Testament isn’t a salvation issue”? If that’s really what you believe then what is preventing you from saying so?

”You cannot believe the New Testament and deny the full deity of Jesus Christ.” - Johann

While the majority of Jewish monotheists do not believe the New Testament, a minority of Jewish monotheists do. I’m counted among those who do.

Jewish monotheism: “There is no God besides the Messiah’s God.“ Are you willing to go on record and say: “There is a God besides the Messiah’s God”?