God begets God?

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MatthewG

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God, and God's Word, are both equally apart of each other. God sent the Word of God, made flesh and of spirit, named Jesus and Emmanuel "God with us." After everything is completed: Jesus gave everything back to his Father, and Jesus said he would sit on the throne of his Father, but the position would be the same as in the beginning with God, God's Word. With the Holy spirit as the very Spirit of God, and today we have the Spirit of Christ within those whom are believers.

God's Word, is the heart of God, in essence of what the Lord Yeshua, had came to do.

Just as the confession of the Lord Yeshua is saving; because it comes from the heart and mouth of the one whom speaks it. (homologeo.)
 

MatthewG

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God, and God's Word, are both equally apart of each other. God sent the Word of God, made flesh and of spirit, named Jesus and Emmanuel "God with us." After everything is completed: Jesus gave everything back to his Father, and Jesus said he would sit on the throne of his Father, but the position would be the same as in the beginning with God, God's Word. With the Holy spirit as the very Spirit of God, and today we have the Spirit of Christ within those whom are believers.

God's Word, is the heart of God, in essence of what the Lord Yeshua, had came to do.

Just as the confession of the Lord Yeshua is saving; because it comes from the heart and mouth of the one whom speaks it. (homologeo.)

How is Jesus, named Emmanuel "God with us?" Because the Word of God was within that body of flesh, helped by the holy spirit of God. Though Jesus was tempted in all ways, and Yahavah was not tempted by sin, the Holy spirit helped hold Jesus flesh back, and the Word of God, was show to be true.
 

Matthias

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Yes He has and it is recorded in the Scriptures.

For this reason the Jews(monotheists) persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

Therefore the Jews(monotheists) sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Christ called His Father God and also declared that He is God as well for He came from the very Center of God.

Jesus is seldom called elohim / theos in scripture and, when he is, he is clearly distinguished from his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

And we also have the Holy Spirit which is God also.

Just as your spirit is you, and my spirit is me, and Jesus’ spirit is him, the Holy Spirit is God.

God, in His Holy Scriptures, declared His Plurality from the very Beginning in Genesis chapter 1.

That’s not what Jewish monotheists see in Genesis and, as you may or may not be aware, many trinitarian theologians / scholars (who are monotheists but not Jewish monotheists) are in agreement with Jewish monotheists on this point. Yesterday I quoted one such trinitarian scholar, Edmund J. Fortman.

Monotheism is the teaching of a singular God whereas the Scriptures teach a Plural God that is Untied as ONE

Scripture is thoroughly monotheistic when it comes to speaking about the one true God.

Note that even in English translation the word is singular, not plural. We can verify this using any English translation of our choosing.

Yahweh is the God (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning) of Israel.

Yahweh is not the gods (elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) of Israel.

Elohim is the correct Hebrew word that is translated as 'God'.
In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

Yes. Elohim is a Hebrew word / title that is always plural in form. However, it is always singular in meaning when used in reference to the God of Israel. The only time the word is plural in meaning is when it is used in reference to more than one pagan god or goddess, or a group of judges, or a group of angels.

Your own source, Strong’s, verifies it.
 
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David in NJ

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To be begotten is to be created. Jesus was begotten by his God.



Jesus is more than a body. There is no human person without a body.

The angel who spoke with Mary tells us precisely why Jesus is called the Son of God.

”The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God.
To be begotten of God is not created.

There does not exist a single scripture where it says God created the Word.
Jesus is seldom called elohim / theos in scripture and, when he is, he is clearly distinguished from his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.



Just as your spirit is you, and my spirit is me, and Jesus’ spirit is him, the Holy Spirit is God.



That’s not what Jewish monotheists see in Genesis and, as you may or may not be aware, many trinitarian theologians / scholars (who are monotheists but not Jewish monotheists) are in agreement with Jewish monotheists on this point. Yesterday I quoted one such trinitarian scholar, Edmund J. Fortman.



Scripture is thoroughly monotheist when it comes to speaking about God.



Yes. Elohim is a Hebrew word / title that is always plural in form. However, it is always singular in meaning when used in reference to the God of Israel. The only time the word is plural in meaning is when it is used in reference to more than one pagan god or goddess, or a group of judges, or a group of angels.
The Hebrew word 'elohim' is confined to the OT scriptures.

NT scriptures/Gospel was not recorded/written in Hebrew.

Yes. Elohim is a Hebrew word / title that is always plural in form. However, it is always singular in meaning when used in reference to the God of Israel.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE - 100% TRUTH

Therefore, by the extent and the singularity by which the word 'elohim/plural' is used in OT scripture we know that God consists of THREE.
God is THREE Persons that are equal to each Other and are a United Elohim that acts speaks and directs as ONE
Genesis declares this and JESUS spoke of this as did the Apostles and Revelation.
 

Matthias

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Yahweh, the God of Israel, the Messiah’s own God, has never been murdered. It is a fiction, at best, to say that he has been.
 

Matthias

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The Hebrew word 'elohim' is confined to the OT scriptures.

That’s right.

NT scriptures/Gospel was not recorded/written in Hebrew.

The New Testament is written in Greek. The Hebrew Bible was translated from Hebrew to Greek in the Septuagint.

The Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim is theos (when the meaning of the Hebrew word is singular) or theoi (when the meaning of the Hebrew word is plural.)

The God (Heb. elohim) of Israel is always singular in Greek (theos, never plural in Greek, theoi). This demonstrates to us that the one true God (Eng. singular) is singular, not plural.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE - 100% TRUTH

Therefore, by the extent and the singularity by which the word 'elohim/plural' is used in OT scripture we know that God consists of THREE.

If you are going to insist on it then you should be comfortable with me insisting that you write it in plural in English. If you’re willing to say that you believe in the Gods (elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) then I’m willing to agree that you are not a monotheist.

What do you say in response to trinitarians when they tell you that they are monotheists?

God is THREE Persons that are equal to each Other and are a United Elohim that acts speaks and directs as ONE
Genesis declares this and JESUS spoke of this as did the Apostles and Revelation.

The Messiah’s God and my God is only one person.
 
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David in NJ

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That’s right.



The New Testament is written in Greek. The Hebrew Bible was translated from Hebrew to Greek in the Septuagint.

The Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word elohim is theos (when the meaning of the Hebrew word is singular) or theoi (when the meaning of the Hebrew word is plural.)

The God (Heb. elohim) of Israel is always singular in Greek (theos, never plural in Greek theoi). This demonstrates to us that the one true God is singular, not plural.



If you are going to insist on it then you should be comfortable with me insisting that you write it in plural in English. If you’re willing to say that you believe in the Gods (elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) then I’m willing to agree that you are not a monotheist. I don’t know what you’re going to do when you come to the NT and the Greek equivalent word is plural, not singular, in meaning.



The Messiah’s God and my God is only one person.
In the NT, the word God is singular because it mostly refers to the FATHER but not in all cases as JESUS refers Himself as God inirectly.
This HE did on purpose to fulfil Prophecy.

When the Word that was God came to earth as a man, the FATHER remained in Heaven - but not the Holy Spirit.

Here in the Gospel are the Elohim of Genesis confirmed = Matthew 3:16-17

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a Voice came from Heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Tha's it for now - Good Night
 

Matthias

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In the NT, the word God is singular because it mostly refers to the FATHER but not in all cases as JESUS refers Himself as God inirectly.

That’s a good point of agreement between us.

I believe that in some sense Jesus is God, but I don’t believe he is God in the same way that you do. Jesus, in my reading and understanding of scripture, is his God’s and my God’s shaliah (agent / representative).

A simple explanation of my position is provided in the link:


The article is quite short and will only take you a couple of minutes to read. You won’t agree with it, and I’m not seeking your agreement with it, but I hope you’ll take the time to read it. Doing so should give you (and anyone else who reads it) a very good and clear understanding of what I believe.

This HE did on purpose to fulfil Prophecy.

The Hebrew Bible prophecies about the Messiah are fulfilled in Jesus of Nazareth.

When the Word that was God came to earth as a man, the FATHER remained in Heaven - but not the Holy Spirit.

In Jewish monotheism, the origin of Jesus of Nazareth is in the womb of the virgin. As I mentioned earlier in our conversation, the reason Jesus is called the Son of God is the begetting done by his Father and the conceiving done by his mother (Luke 1:35).

Here in the Gospel are the Elohim of Genesis confirmed = Matthew 3:16-17

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a Voice came from Heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Tha's it for now - Good Night

An alleged deity person didn’t tumble from the sky and alight on Jesus when he was baptized. The language is obviously, at least from my perspective, figurative. Jesus is vouched for symbolically with the spirit of his God. He has God’s stamp of approval.

P.S.

Jesus is the Son of God (Gk. theos). He is the only begotten Son of the Father. He is the Son of only one person, not the Son of two (or three) persons. Isn’t that something we agree on?

Good night.
 
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Matthias

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“God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.”

That’ll keep you up when you ought to be down for the night.
 
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Johann

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“God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.”
Eternal Generation and the Trinity:
The phrase "God begets God" misrepresents the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son. Christian theology teaches that God the Father eternally begets the Son, meaning that the Son’s existence is derived from the Father but without a beginning in time (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-17).

This does not imply two separate "gods," as the Trinity is one God in three persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-sharing the same divine essence. Therefore, the Son is not a separate "second god" but is consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father.

2. The Incarnation and Death of Christ:
The statement "God is murdered" misunderstands the Christian teaching of the Incarnation. Jesus, fully God and fully man, willingly took on human nature to redeem humanity (Philippians 2:6-8). His human nature, not His divine essence, experienced death on the cross. The divine nature cannot die or cease to exist, as God is eternal and unchanging (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).
Jesus’ death is understood as a sacrificial act to atone for the sins of humanity (1 Peter 2:24). It is not a tragedy inflicted on God unwillingly but a purposeful and redemptive act carried out within God’s sovereign plan.

3. Jewish Monotheists and the Crucifixion:
While Jewish leaders played a role in the trial of Jesus, the crucifixion was ultimately carried out by Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate (John 19:16).

To frame the event as “murder by Jewish monotheists” is both theologically and historically misleading.

The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus’ death was part of God’s redemptive plan for humanity and that all humanity shares responsibility for sin (Acts 2:23, Romans 3:23), which necessitated the sacrifice. Blame cannot be narrowly assigned to one group.

4. Voluntary Sacrifice, Not Victimhood:
Jesus Himself stated, "No one takes it [My life] from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord" (John 10:18). This highlights that His death was a voluntary act of divine love and grace, not a passive victimization.
The crucifixion is central to Christian theology because it demonstrates God’s justice and mercy, reconciling sinners to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
5. Conclusion:

The statement distorts Christian theology by ignoring the voluntary and redemptive nature of Christ’s sacrifice, mischaracterizing the Trinity, and oversimplifying the historical and theological context of the crucifixion. A proper understanding reveals the depth and coherence of these doctrines, rooted in God’s eternal plan of salvation and the mystery of the Incarnation.

A. AS THE ETERNAL WORD, JESUS IS FULLY GOD.
We saw this clearly in verse 1. John asserts that Jesus is eternal. He does not say, “In the beginning, God created the Word as the first and greatest created being.” But rather, “In the beginning was the Word.” The sense of the verb is that He was already existing at the beginning of time because He has no beginning. He is one in essence with the Father (John 10:30) and the triune God is the only eternal being.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

Of course, Satan hates the truth of the deity of Jesus Christ, because it spells his doom.
And so he has always attacked it.
One of the most substantial attacks on the deity of Christ came from the heretic Arius in the early fourth century. He taught that the Word was the first and greatest created being. He gained a large following, but was refuted at the Councils of Nicea (325 A.D.), Constantinople (381 A.D.), and Chalcedon (451 A. D.). The latter two councils also clarified the relationship of the two natures of Christ to correct several other heresies that had sprung up. But the attacks on Christ’s deity have continued through the Unitarians, liberal theologians, and the modern cults, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

But the New Testament clearly affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. He Himself claimed to be God. In John 5:23, He said that the Father had given all judgment to the Son “so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” In John 8:58, He asserted His eternal existence when He claimed, “Before Abraham was born, I am.” (The Jews would have recognized “I am” as a reference to God’s name as revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14.) In John 10:30 He asserted, “I and the Father are one.” In John 14:9 He told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”

Also, Scripture directly states that Jesus is God. There are several such references (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; 1 John 5:20), but I think the clearest is Hebrews 1:8, which applies Psalm 45:6 to Jesus: “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever….” Also, many titles that apply only to God are applied to Jesus. “Lord” is the same as Yahweh of the Old Testament (Isa. 40:3 with John 1:23; Jer. 23:5, 6; Joel 2:32 with Acts 2:21; 4:12; Rom. 10:9-10, 13). He is “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8). In Revelation 1:8 God says, “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’” Then just a few verses later (Rev. 1:17), Jesus proclaims, “I am the first and the last.” In Revelation 22:13 (in case we missed it) he reaffirms, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (See Isa. 41:4.)

Also, Jesus displayed many of the incommunicable attributes of God: He is eternal (John 1:1); omnipresent (Matt. 28:20); omnipotent (Phil. 3:21); immutable (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8); glorious (John 1:14; 1 Cor. 2:8; Rev. 1:13-16); and sovereign (Phil. 2:10). Paul put it (Col. 2:9), “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” Plus, Jesus did works that only God can do, such as creating all that is (John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2); raising the dead (John 5:25-26); overpowering Satan and all spiritual forces (Eph. 1:21); judging all people (John 5:22-23, 27); forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7); and receiving worship (John 9:38; 20:28). You cannot believe the New Testament and deny the full deity of Jesus Christ.

J.
 
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Matthias

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Eternal Generation and the Trinity:
The phrase "God begets God" misrepresents the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son. Christian theology teaches that God the Father eternally begets the Son, meaning that the Son’s existence is derived from the Father but without a beginning in time (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-17).

This does not imply two separate "gods," as the Trinity is one God in three persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-sharing the same divine essence. Therefore, the Son is not a separate "second god" but is consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father.

2. The Incarnation and Death of Christ:
The statement "God is murdered" misunderstands the Christian teaching of the Incarnation. Jesus, fully God and fully man, willingly took on human nature to redeem humanity (Philippians 2:6-8). His human nature, not His divine essence, experienced death on the cross. The divine nature cannot die or cease to exist, as God is eternal and unchanging (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).
Jesus’ death is understood as a sacrificial act to atone for the sins of humanity (1 Peter 2:24). It is not a tragedy inflicted on God unwillingly but a purposeful and redemptive act carried out within God’s sovereign plan.

3. Jewish Monotheists and the Crucifixion:
While Jewish leaders played a role in the trial of Jesus, the crucifixion was ultimately carried out by Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate (John 19:16).

To frame the event as “murder by Jewish monotheists” is both theologically and historically misleading.

The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus’ death was part of God’s redemptive plan for humanity and that all humanity shares responsibility for sin (Acts 2:23, Romans 3:23), which necessitated the sacrifice. Blame cannot be narrowly assigned to one group.

4. Voluntary Sacrifice, Not Victimhood:
Jesus Himself stated, "No one takes it [My life] from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord" (John 10:18). This highlights that His death was a voluntary act of divine love and grace, not a passive victimization.
The crucifixion is central to Christian theology because it demonstrates God’s justice and mercy, reconciling sinners to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
5. Conclusion:

The statement distorts Christian theology by ignoring the voluntary and redemptive nature of Christ’s sacrifice, mischaracterizing the Trinity, and oversimplifying the historical and theological context of the crucifixion. A proper understanding reveals the depth and coherence of these doctrines, rooted in God’s eternal plan of salvation and the mystery of the Incarnation.

A. AS THE ETERNAL WORD, JESUS IS FULLY GOD.
We saw this clearly in verse 1. John asserts that Jesus is eternal. He does not say, “In the beginning, God created the Word as the first and greatest created being.” But rather, “In the beginning was the Word.” The sense of the verb is that He was already existing at the beginning of time because He has no beginning. He is one in essence with the Father (John 10:30) and the triune God is the only eternal being.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

Of course, Satan hates the truth of the deity of Jesus Christ, because it spells his doom.
And so he has always attacked it.
One of the most substantial attacks on the deity of Christ came from the heretic Arius in the early fourth century. He taught that the Word was the first and greatest created being. He gained a large following, but was refuted at the Councils of Nicea (325 A.D.), Constantinople (381 A.D.), and Chalcedon (451 A. D.). The latter two councils also clarified the relationship of the two natures of Christ to correct several other heresies that had sprung up. But the attacks on Christ’s deity have continued through the Unitarians, liberal theologians, and the modern cults, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

But the New Testament clearly affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. He Himself claimed to be God. In John 5:23, He said that the Father had given all judgment to the Son “so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” In John 8:58, He asserted His eternal existence when He claimed, “Before Abraham was born, I am.” (The Jews would have recognized “I am” as a reference to God’s name as revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14.) In John 10:30 He asserted, “I and the Father are one.” In John 14:9 He told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”

Also, Scripture directly states that Jesus is God. There are several such references (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; 1 John 5:20), but I think the clearest is Hebrews 1:8, which applies Psalm 45:6 to Jesus: “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever….” Also, many titles that apply only to God are applied to Jesus. “Lord” is the same as Yahweh of the Old Testament (Isa. 40:3 with John 1:23; Jer. 23:5, 6; Joel 2:32 with Acts 2:21; 4:12; Rom. 10:9-10, 13). He is “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8). In Revelation 1:8 God says, “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’” Then just a few verses later (Rev. 1:17), Jesus proclaims, “I am the first and the last.” In Revelation 22:13 (in case we missed it) he reaffirms, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (See Isa. 41:4.)

Also, Jesus displayed many of the incommunicable attributes of God: He is eternal (John 1:1); omnipresent (Matt. 28:20); omnipotent (Phil. 3:21); immutable (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8); glorious (John 1:14; 1 Cor. 2:8; Rev. 1:13-16); and sovereign (Phil. 2:10). Paul put it (Col. 2:9), “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” Plus, Jesus did works that only God can do, such as creating all that is (John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2); raising the dead (John 5:25-26); overpowering Satan and all spiritual forces (Eph. 1:21); judging all people (John 5:22-23, 27); forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7); and receiving worship (John 9:38; 20:28). You cannot believe the New Testament and deny the full deity of Jesus Christ.

J.

Despite your bold assertion, I believe the New Testament. There is no God besides the Messiah’s.
 
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Matthias

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It’s not Jesus and the apostles who introduced the non-biblical concept of eternal generation. It’s Origen, in the third century.
 
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Matthias

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“6. Origen’s Helpful Suggestion. It was the many-sided genius of Origen that helped to solve the problem. Origen, like Tertullian, was strongly opposed to Monarchianism with its emphasis on monotheism to the exclusion of hypostasianism and tri-personality. Abandoning the view of the Apologists and of Tertullian who conceived the Logos to be a person only from the time of the creation, Origen declared the Logos to have been a person from all eternity. ‘His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy produced by the sun.’ ‘The Father did not beget the Son and set Him free after He was begotten, but is always begetting Him.’ This suggestion of an eternal generation was a needed contribution. It was unconsciously a srep in the direction of co-eternity and co-equality of the Son with the Father, as expressed in the Church’s doctrine of the Trinity.”

(J. L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 108)

Dr. Neve, for those interested, was a Lutheran scholar.

The problem he is alluding to is subordinationism.

In scripture, the Father begets the Son in time and place, as described in the birth narratives. In Origen, the Father is always begetting the Son.

P.S.

Origen is a critical contributor to the post-biblical formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Of all of the Ante-Nicene writers, he is the one I least enjoy reading. Nevertheless, anyone interested in the process which eventually produced the doctrine of the Trinity should read him.
 
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David in NJ

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Eternal Generation and the Trinity:
The phrase "God begets God" misrepresents the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son. Christian theology teaches that God the Father eternally begets the Son, meaning that the Son’s existence is derived from the Father but without a beginning in time (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-17).

This does not imply two separate "gods," as the Trinity is one God in three persons-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-sharing the same divine essence. Therefore, the Son is not a separate "second god" but is consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father.

2. The Incarnation and Death of Christ:
The statement "God is murdered" misunderstands the Christian teaching of the Incarnation. Jesus, fully God and fully man, willingly took on human nature to redeem humanity (Philippians 2:6-8). His human nature, not His divine essence, experienced death on the cross. The divine nature cannot die or cease to exist, as God is eternal and unchanging (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8).
Jesus’ death is understood as a sacrificial act to atone for the sins of humanity (1 Peter 2:24). It is not a tragedy inflicted on God unwillingly but a purposeful and redemptive act carried out within God’s sovereign plan.

3. Jewish Monotheists and the Crucifixion:
While Jewish leaders played a role in the trial of Jesus, the crucifixion was ultimately carried out by Roman authorities under Pontius Pilate (John 19:16).

To frame the event as “murder by Jewish monotheists” is both theologically and historically misleading.

The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus’ death was part of God’s redemptive plan for humanity and that all humanity shares responsibility for sin (Acts 2:23, Romans 3:23), which necessitated the sacrifice. Blame cannot be narrowly assigned to one group.

4. Voluntary Sacrifice, Not Victimhood:
Jesus Himself stated, "No one takes it [My life] from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord" (John 10:18). This highlights that His death was a voluntary act of divine love and grace, not a passive victimization.
The crucifixion is central to Christian theology because it demonstrates God’s justice and mercy, reconciling sinners to Himself through Christ’s atoning sacrifice (2 Corinthians 5:18-19).
5. Conclusion:

The statement distorts Christian theology by ignoring the voluntary and redemptive nature of Christ’s sacrifice, mischaracterizing the Trinity, and oversimplifying the historical and theological context of the crucifixion. A proper understanding reveals the depth and coherence of these doctrines, rooted in God’s eternal plan of salvation and the mystery of the Incarnation.

A. AS THE ETERNAL WORD, JESUS IS FULLY GOD.
We saw this clearly in verse 1. John asserts that Jesus is eternal. He does not say, “In the beginning, God created the Word as the first and greatest created being.” But rather, “In the beginning was the Word.” The sense of the verb is that He was already existing at the beginning of time because He has no beginning. He is one in essence with the Father (John 10:30) and the triune God is the only eternal being.

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]

Of course, Satan hates the truth of the deity of Jesus Christ, because it spells his doom.
And so he has always attacked it.
One of the most substantial attacks on the deity of Christ came from the heretic Arius in the early fourth century. He taught that the Word was the first and greatest created being. He gained a large following, but was refuted at the Councils of Nicea (325 A.D.), Constantinople (381 A.D.), and Chalcedon (451 A. D.). The latter two councils also clarified the relationship of the two natures of Christ to correct several other heresies that had sprung up. But the attacks on Christ’s deity have continued through the Unitarians, liberal theologians, and the modern cults, such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons.

But the New Testament clearly affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. He Himself claimed to be God. In John 5:23, He said that the Father had given all judgment to the Son “so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.” In John 8:58, He asserted His eternal existence when He claimed, “Before Abraham was born, I am.” (The Jews would have recognized “I am” as a reference to God’s name as revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14.) In John 10:30 He asserted, “I and the Father are one.” In John 14:9 He told Philip, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”

Also, Scripture directly states that Jesus is God. There are several such references (John 1:1; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Titus 2:13; 1 John 5:20), but I think the clearest is Hebrews 1:8, which applies Psalm 45:6 to Jesus: “But of the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever….” Also, many titles that apply only to God are applied to Jesus. “Lord” is the same as Yahweh of the Old Testament (Isa. 40:3 with John 1:23; Jer. 23:5, 6; Joel 2:32 with Acts 2:21; 4:12; Rom. 10:9-10, 13). He is “the Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2:8). In Revelation 1:8 God says, “‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, ‘who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.’” Then just a few verses later (Rev. 1:17), Jesus proclaims, “I am the first and the last.” In Revelation 22:13 (in case we missed it) he reaffirms, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (See Isa. 41:4.)

Also, Jesus displayed many of the incommunicable attributes of God: He is eternal (John 1:1); omnipresent (Matt. 28:20); omnipotent (Phil. 3:21); immutable (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8); glorious (John 1:14; 1 Cor. 2:8; Rev. 1:13-16); and sovereign (Phil. 2:10). Paul put it (Col. 2:9), “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.” Plus, Jesus did works that only God can do, such as creating all that is (John 1:3, 10; Heb. 1:2); raising the dead (John 5:25-26); overpowering Satan and all spiritual forces (Eph. 1:21); judging all people (John 5:22-23, 27); forgiving sins (Mark 2:5-7); and receiving worship (John 9:38; 20:28). You cannot believe the New Testament and deny the full deity of Jesus Christ.

J.
The phrase "God begets God" misrepresents the doctrine of the eternal generation of the Son. Christian theology teaches that God the Father eternally begets the Son, meaning that the Son’s existence is derived from the Father but without a beginning in time (John 1:1-3, Colossians 1:15-17).
John 1:1-3 does not, in any way/shape/form state this.

HOWEVER, there is Good News, if you closely examine John chapter 1 and Colossians 1:15-17 you will find the TRUTH
and if you need a 3rd Witness to attest to the TRUTH, look to Hebrews ch10

These THREE areas of Scripture, as stated above, have the TRUTH, the Precise Understanding

SHALOM
 
J

Johann

Guest
John 1:1-3 does not, in any way/shape/form state this.

HOWEVER, there is Good News, if you closely examine John chapter 1 and Colossians 1:15-17 you will find the TRUTH
and if you need a 3rd Witness to attest to the TRUTH, look to Hebrews ch10

These THREE areas of Scripture, as stated above, have the TRUTH, the Precise Understanding

SHALOM
This was a reply to @Matthias @David in NJ.

J.
 

Matthias

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”God begets God and then God is murdered by Jewish monotheists.” That’s what you’ve presented to me. I reject that out of hand.

@Johann wrote to me, just as he said in post #36, but in opposition to what you presented for my consideration. He should have written to you, not me. I agree with much of what he wrote in post #31.
 

Matthias

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You are a birth product of your Father's "seed".

Jesus isn't.
He's a birth product of His Father's Spirit.

That’s right. Joseph is not Jesus’ biological father.

God didn’t beget himself. God supernaturally beget Jesus, just as the birth narratives plainly inform us.

Do you believe that Jewish monotheists murdered God?