"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed

[St. SteVen]

"Evangelicals" as used here is a corporate entity. A body made up of multiple individual parts. Corporate entities have their own values, beliefs, and behaviors that can be described statistically.

Johnny Mac is dead nuts right on this one. The data shows that "Evangelicals" looked at as a whole has a roughly 50-50 split personality.

I suppose a good question would be: Where is the problem?
- Evangelical leadership being out-of-touch?
- Evangelicals not following leadership?

Should Christians surrender their beliefs to the institutional church? (in-the-cause-of-doctrinal-unity)

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

www.christianityboard.com

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[Lambano]

Is the body of Christ currently healthy?

 

[St. SteVen]

Is the body of Christ currently healthy?

Hard to imagine that anyone would answer to the affirmative.

What's the diagnosis?

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[Lambano]

Hard to imagine that anyone would answer to a affirmative.

What's the diagnosis?

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Dr. MacArthur gave his diagnosis - and I can guess his proposed treatment.

 

[St. SteVen]

Dr. MacArthur gave his diagnosis - and I can guess his proposed treatment.

If you watch the video, you can see how upset he is by this.
And he expects his listeners to be as appalled as he is.
The problem is glaringly obvious to him.

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[St. SteVen]

New topic:

Can a person be a Christ-follower without falling in lock-step with the institutional church?

What are the limits of individuality for persons in the church?

www.christianityboard.com

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[Lambano]

If you watch the video, you can see how upset he is by this.
And he expects his listeners to be as appalled as he is.
The problem is glaringly obvious to him.

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Of course. I used to listen to the man during morning drive time; I've bought a couple of his books, and I have his study Bible on a CD somewhere. The man has spent his life expositing the Bible. It's who he is and what he does. To him, a healthy body of Christ believes sound doctrine.

I could very easily have turned out that way.

What would a healthy body of Christ look like to you?

 

[St. SteVen]

What would a healthy body of Christ look like to you?

I suppose my answer would track with many of the topics I have launched.

- Acceptance of others despite doctrinal differences.
- A reasonable view toward the Bible. (not to be worshiped)
- More loving and benevolent behavior toward those outside the church.

This would be a good start. What do you see?

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[Wrangler]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?

This is what education is about. The church does not tell us what to believe, it teaches what it believes and by extension, what the members should believe.

Compare it to a model plane club. It teaches how to build a model plane. It seems like you resent the church's education function. Why do you need a math teacher to TELL us 1 + 1 = 2?

 

[Lambano]

I suppose my answer would track with many of the topics I have launched.

- Acceptance of others despite doctrinal differences.
- A reasonable view toward the Bible. (not to be worshiped)
- More loving and benevolent behavior toward those outside the church.

This would be a good start. What do you see?

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That's a start, but only a start. There's something missing.

 

[Lambano]

I was thinking about this quote:

"I don't know about being willing to die for Christ, but we certainly seem willing enough to kill for Him." - Steve Brown

 

[St. SteVen]

I was thinking about this quote:

"I don't know about being willing to die for Christ, but we certainly seem willing enough to kill for Him." - Steve Brown

That's a curious subject.
Where do you draw the line?

If the government was going to chain the church doors should we take a bullet to stop them?
Or quietly go underground?

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[Lambano]

That's a curious subject.
Where do you draw the line?

If the government was going to chain the church doors should we take a bullet to stop them?
Or quietly go underground?

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Is that what Jesus meant?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's a curious subject.
Where do you draw the line?

If the government was going to chain the church doors should we take a bullet to stop them?
Or quietly go underground?

Is that what Jesus meant?

Are you saying that taking a bullet would be taking up our cross,
but quietly going underground would not be taking up the cross?

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[Lambano]

No. That's not even within hailing distance of what's prickling at the edge of my consciousness.

 

[St. SteVen]

No. That's not even within hailing distance of what's prickling at the edge of my consciousness.

I'm listening. (with great interest)

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[St. SteVen]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe
Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about.
Brainwashing, obviously.

Not to say that there isn't a need for religious training, but...
this approach leaves MUCH to be desired.

- Are there other models for religious training?
- Or should the church control what members believe?

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[amigo de christo]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?
Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church?

There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe
Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about.
Brainwashing, obviously.

Not to say that there isn't a need for religious training, but...
this approach leaves MUCH to be desired.

- Are there other models for religious training?
- Or should the church control what members believe?

[

The true leaders who help the people should remind , as did the apostels , the church what it should believe
and be doing and Not be doing . Continually stirring one another up by those reminders . as both peter and paul
even said . Using pure biblical doctrine as a means to stir them up to remembrance .

 

[Aunty Jane]

St. SteVen said:
That's a curious subject.
Where do you draw the line?

If the government was going to chain the church doors should we take a bullet to stop them?
Or quietly go underground?

What did the first Christians do? They avoided confrontation when they could by withdrawing from an area where that was threatening their preaching. Confrontation was not conducive to spreading the Christian message, which was a peaceful one. However, when national persecution arose they went underground (literally) as we see in the catacombs.
Armed combat was not for Christians…..their weapons were to be spiritual, not carnal. Payback will come from God, not Christ’s disciples. (Rom 12:17-21; 2 Cor 10:3-5)

Are you saying that taking a bullet would be taking up our cross,
but quietly going underground would not be taking up the cross?

Enduring persecution in any form of the kind that Jesus endured is indeed taking up his instrument of torture….and even martyrdom if that is the end result…..but it doesn’t mean quietly submitting to such if an escape route is there. Jesus wants us to preach his message to people, which we cannot do from the grave. Whilst we have a voice, it should be used to educate anyone who wants to listen about why Christ gave his life for them, and how we too can extend that knowledge to others.

Many times when Jesus was confronted or threatened, he simply slipped away from his persecutors.
When the time was right however, he humbly submitted to arrest torture and death without resistance.

Christians must be a cohesive body, with no divisions or dissension….all believing one truth, as taught by their master. (1 Cor 1:10) The “body of Christ” is harmoniously “joined together”…it is not found in dismembered pieces all over Christendom, with these members arguing over doctrine.

This body has appointed shepherds (not masters) who are there to guide and direct the flock and we are admonished to submit to them. (Heb 13:17) That admonition seems lost in the divided state of Christendom…to whom are Christians to submit themselves In that fragmented mess?

Since the “many“ will be rejected at the judgment (Matt 7:21-23) we need to find the “few” who are a united global brotherhood, (Matt 7:13-14; 1 Cor 1:10) known for keeping separate from the world (John 17:16) and doing what Jesus commanded by way of the preaching work that Jesus assigned to his disciples before his return to heaven. (Matt 28:19-20; Matt 24:14)

When Jesus comes as judge of all…..who will pass muster? Only those found “doing the will of the Father”.
So what is the will of the Father? To adhere to the teachings of his last prophet….his precious son, sent to give his life for those who love one truth.….and have “one Lord, one faith, one baptism”.

There is a “faithful and wise slave” (not a single individual) appointed by the master in these end times (Matt 24:44-45) to “feed” Jesus’ sheep…..it is up to us to find the ones who serve him in truth….and accept to their teachings. They will be out there in all the inhabited earth doing what Jesus told them to do, despite the hatred and persecution that they receive. (John 15:18-21; Matt 10:11-14)

 

[Ezra]

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe?

psst the church is not there to tell you how to believe. nor does it brainwash the pastor feeds the flock a church is a multi purpose center the church i pastor ..we usually start a good 5 mins late.. why? because the congregation is fellowshipping. the Church one attends is a family