Oklahoma orders first shipment of Bibles for use in public school classrooms

[Aunty Jane]

All education is the responsibility of the parents. The purpose of public schools existing is like a lawyer, to assist with this responsibility.

The public education system is designed to single out the geniuses and to foster their talents for the future use of governments who offer these gifted intellectuals a well payed place in their system, wherever they can be used to advantage.....especially in areas of science and technology, weapons development, education, and in supporting agendas long planned, often before they were even born.

It is the responsibility of parents to see the bigger picture and to steer their children in the right direction so that the system does not scoop them up and place them in positions that, really at the end of the day, serve the devil and his much larger agenda.

Those children who are not above average in intelligence will end up being the servants of those who are wealthy, either by their own endeavours or by inheritance.
No one seems to see that the whole western system is dependent on slave labor. The rich get richer at the expense of the poor. No one will work harder than those with children to feed. But all their hard work never allows them to swim with their heads above water in a never ending cycle of poverty.

Satan’s world is all about getting rather than giving. The commercial system now has become an ever present annoyance, pestering people to buy things they don’t need, to satisfy insatiable wants created by the system itself.
Schools are places where children don’t grow up, but are fostered in an environment that keeps them subject to the status quo...even into adulthood they are shaped by the expectations of the system they live in.
If we allow ourselves and our children to be shaped by the system, then serving God will be a matter of constant compromise, trying to meld the two....but “never the Twain shall meet”.

1 John 2:15-17 contains a warning......
“Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16  because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17  Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.”

No one who loves the things of this world will have any part in the one that is coming. This world is going down, (passing away) and all who cling to this sinking ship will go down with it. Be careful about who you give your loyalty to.....is one at the expense of the other, guided by emotional indoctrination, rather than sound Bible knowledge? “You cannot serve two masters”.

While authority can be delegated, responsibility cannot be delegated,

Agreed....but with responsibility comes the need to be real about what is really going on down here on this planet. If “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19)...then what part of it can be acceptable to us? We are instructed by Jesus himself to be NO PART of the way this world is governed. Satan has been given full control over “ALL the kingdoms of the world” offered to Jesus in exchange for one act of worship. (Luke 4:5-7) Jesus did not dispute his claim.

Are we ourselves performing acts of worship to “the god of this world” by supporting his evil political system...either directly or even in an indirect way? (James 4:4)
In a world ruled by the devil, there are no good guys....just some who are better at propaganda than others.

It will all come out in the wash Wrangler.....that cleansing is not far off....Jesus will let us all know if we have pleased our Heavenly Father, or if we have (even unwittingly) betrayed him.

 

[Wrangler]

The rich get richer at the expense of the poor.

Class envy trope cannot survive scrutiny. If the poor have nothing, one does not become rich by taking nothing from them.

Americans invented the expression "make money." It is glorious and does not mean create money out of nothing. Rather, it means to create wealth. Business is the greatest invention yet devised by man. Compare your zero sum game statement to the standard of living several thousand years ago when there were only 1 million people and most were living at the edge of starvation.

If you told such people, that in the 21st century there will be 9,000 million people who live in luxury hard to imagine with:

1. central HVAC,
2. indoor plumbing,
3. refrigeration and stoves,
4. cars, trains, luxury ships, planes,
5. technology, including medical science and medications,
6. long (>2x) and safe life expectancies,
7. electrication,
8. so much food many countries have obesity as a health problem of epidemic proporetions.

They would consider such a future a blissful utopia. Obviously, the "poor" today are richer than the rich of days gone by except for land, furs and cool looking rocks and metals.

It is not the rich that are the enemy of the poor. It is corrupt government. See African roads and economic collapse since "exploitive" colonialists left. Replaced by numerous genocides. And you do everything you can to assist these coercive agents ongoing perpetrating poverty against their own people!

 

[Rockerduck]

The rich are an unhappy, miserable bunch with no drive for life. They spend their time flying to parties all over the world, and that's what they have to look forward to. No one to impress and talk down to everyone. If, by chance you are invited to a fundraiser event and rubbed elbows with some rich folks, they know instantly you're not one of them.
On the other hand, the middle-class folks are happy and more app to attend church and have well behaved children. They are happy to buy or even cook a cake for birthdays. I'm talking about factory workers, and such making better than avg wages. Rich people can't fathom people having a cookout at their house and the laughing and natural fun of having something to look forward to next week. Remember, the rich will look down on this fun, because they are miserable and never experienced this.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So why aren't there Jehovah's Witness schools?

As the school system has deteriorated over the last few decades into a den of immorality, and scientifically inspired falsehoods on the origins of living things, many Witnesses have opted to home school their kids....taking them out of that environment completely and allowing them to grow up free from its horrible influence! I feel for any children in that environment.....just the bullying alone is sending many teens to suicide. Here in Australia, we have home schooling curriculums online so that standards are met and no home schooled child is disadvantages educationally, but way advanced in their attitudes and maturity because of not having to endure that awful environment. They mature in a way that the school system destroys.

Agreed, with a slight adjustment. The Theocracy is ruled by The Christ, head and body (Jesus and his Church).

May I ask who’s Kingdom Jesus is the head of? Theocracy is “rule by God” which is facilitated by his appointed King along with his “joint heirs”. (Rev 20:6)

I don't defend them, I simply understand them.

Me too....but perhaps differently because of the fact that our respective countries are ruled in very different ways. Patriot sentiments are not ingrained in our children from infancy. We do not further indoctrinate them through the school system, saluting flags and saying pledges of allegiance, and we not do push religious education in our very secular country. Such education in Australian schools is by the choice of the parents....it is not forced, nor is it chosen by the majority.

If schools want to teach the religion or allow the church of satan the same rights, so what?

If that were the case, no child of mine would attend such a school.

So do me a favor, don't lump me in with the rest of Christendom who believes that America was founded by God and that it's a Christian nation. It may have been founded by God-fearing men on Biblical principals, but it is far from God's kingdom on earth.

I know how hard it is for Americans particularly to keep church and state separate. We have similar roots but ended up in completely different operating systems....neither one of them superior.

 

[Aunty Jane]

There's a difference between as you say, "true disciples of the Christ" and "self professed Christians." True disciples of Christ are those who have made a full consecration to God, (Romans 12:1, 2) those who have been anointed with the holy Spirit and adopted as sons (Ephesians 1:5). Only the spirit-begotten, the Little Flock are true disciples of Christ.

There is more than “the little flock” who identify as “true disciples of Christ”.....the little flock are seen in heaven with Christ but “the great crowd” are seen surviving the great tribulation on earth.
John identified them in Revelation 7:1-4; 9-10; 13-14.

“After this I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, so that no wind could blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2  And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3  saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”

4  And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”.
(This is not literal Israel, but spiritual Israel made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. Gal 6:16) These are “the little flock”. (Luke 12:32; Rev 14:3-5)

John continues....
“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10  And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.””

These too are Christians, but not of “the little flock”.....this great crowd has no definite number.

John was curious, so he asks the angel who these ones were.....?

“In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14  So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them. 16  They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17  because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Reiterated by John in Rev 21:1-4)

You have accepted only a part of John’s Revelation.....at the time of Russell’s writings, this “great crowd” was unknown. All of the modern day servants of Jehovah were originally part of “the little flock”, but it became apparent in time that many were refraining from baptism because of no anointing with God’s spirit confirming their “heavenly calling”......so it was finally determined, as the numbers grew, who these ones were......at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1935, it was revealed that there was an unnumbered “great crowd” who were to serve God on earth, “coming out of the great tribulation” as survivors......when it was asked who in the audience identified as being part of that “great crowd”, many stood up to thunderous applause, finally understanding that their love for Jehovah and his Christ still gave them a place in the Kingdom...as it’s subjects.....the ones over whom “the little flock” would rule, and act as priests. (Rev 20:6) They were baptized without delay.

the question I posed to you was not "WHAT is the Good News?", but "what is the purpose of the preaching work?" Can you answer that with scripture and reason?

The purpose is the same as that which motivated the first Christians to preach about the good news. Jesus sent them out to the people, (Matt 10:11-14) so that when he told them to “flee to the mountains” when they ‘saw Jerusalem surrounded’ by the Roman armies, they would save their lives by following his direction to escape the calamity that was coming.......the response of people in this age would be also save their lives, evaluated and duly noted by the one who would come as judge. No one knew when that judgment was to come.....only that Christ promised to return and take his anointed ones to heaven where he was going to “prepare a place” for them.....so the writing of the NT scriptures indicated an imminence of that event. The words “soon” and “quickly” were used, but not with the same meaning to God as it has to us humans, living a finite existence. If a thousand of our years is like “one day” to God, then “soon” and “quickly” take on a very different meaning.

The purpose of the preaching work is to warn and inform people about how to escape a coming calamity. One that is even worse than the one that confronted the inhabitants of Jerusalem back in the first century.

Only those who heed the warning and come into Jehovah’s spiritual family of worshippers will survive the tribulation that is coming. The anointed ones will all safely be in heaven by the time Armageddon is fought, but the great crowd will emerge as survivors.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

So, 8 million preachers will reach every man, woman and child with their good news? Tell me something, was the flood global? Did Noah all over the world and give a warning to everyone?

That is not what Jesus said....in Mark 13:10 as part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said....”Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first.” This is not just about Jerusalem, but “in all the nations” the good news has to be preached. Who are preaching it in all nations?
All nations will hear the good news, but not every person will for various reasons. For those who have not heard it, Paul wrote...
“For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15  They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16  This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.”

Their response to the good news, determines their destiny, but as Paul also said...

“For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13  For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14  However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15  How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”” (Rom 10:11-15)

These preachers are “sent out”......but by whom? (Matt 28:19-20) No one in your religion.

Ah, so the resurrected ones "will be subjected to a period of judgment so that they have an opportunity to learn about the true God and his redeemer whose life has also purchased theirs." But those won't have that opportunity because they rejected your message? That doesn't seem fair, especially since those on the "cleansed earth" will have an advantage, and that is they will learn free from Satan's influence, no one to tempt them. But the others, those now are living under the rulership of Satan and his demonic minions. He rules the power of the air.

We are not the ones who determine who will be resurrected after Armageddon.....that is for Jesus to decide as he calls all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)....even the “unrighteousness ones”.....”those who did vile things” will be given a period of judgment if what they did in the past was done in ignorance. Today, there are only “sheep and goats”....all humanity fall into one category or the other....only Jesus knows which are which. Many are convinced otherwise. (Matt 7:21-23)

Isaiah foretold that Jesus would “not judge by what appears to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.” He would “judge the lowly with fairness.” (Isa 11:3-4) Why is this encouraging? Because we live in a world filled with bias and prejudice. We all long for the perfect Judge, who will never judge us by our outward appearance alone.

so you're out to save lives? Like the rest of Christendon; "repent and receive Jesus or die!" The only difference is they relegate non-believers to torment, while you relegate them to second death. I guess yours is a kinder-gentler message.

We are to preach what Jesus preached.....life has been conditional since the beginning....”obey and live...disobey and die” has never changed since Eden. Life or death were the only two options, even for Israel.....so the message is the same today as it has always been....repentance must precede baptism and after baptism, obedience is the prime requirement. Jesus commanded us to preach.....right to “the end”. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)
What is it “he end” of, in your belief system?

You are all so ‘left behind’ in your understanding as if nothing new could be added after Russell’s death. Did he not expect someone to take his place and continue his work? He knew that the work was in its infancy and that as the day for judgment drew closer, new things would come to light (Prov 4:18)...you have been left in the darkness, clinging to a man who is now in heaven urging you to see the truth. It’s not about the teachings of one man and it never was. Russell was not alone, but was part of a body...the growing and developing body of Christ in this time of the end, given a very important commission......the majority of whom are now in heaven about to take up their roles in the administration of the Kingdom we have been praying for, for almost 2000 years!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Class envy trope cannot survive scrutiny. If the poor have nothing, one does not become rich by taking nothing from them.

I cannot believe that your attitude is inspired by anything the Bible says about these things....

What do the rich steal from the poor? Their labor....devalued and underplayed in poor nations and even in the wealthier ones, they exploit the time and energy of these slave laborers as if their slavery and being relegated to the lower classes of society, was through their own will. Some live in nations where smart kids can pull themselves out of slavery in adulthood....but most cannot. There is no money to pay for food let alone education.

How much of the clothing worn by the rich are made by the underpaid poor in sweatshops?
How much that is mined in poor nations is through the exploitation of children in these awful places? Do you know....do you care?
You sound like you are proud of their achievements.....but at what cost?

Americans invented the expression "make money." It is glorious and does not mean create money out of nothing. Rather, it means to create wealth. Business is the greatest invention yet devised by man.

And I am really sorry for you that this is your attitude......you can apparently justify “making money” by the exploitation of the poor without the slightest hint of recognition that these people exist in your country and mine.....if you “make money” out of underpaying your labor force, then only one party is benefitted....the party that can afford not to be. Heaven forbid that profit can be sacrificed to accommodate a better lifestyle for the poor.

In my experience, the richer people are, the less they think or care about others. Look at the rich celebrities with multiple houses, yachts and cars, expensive clothing and lavish vacations....seriously, as Jesus said “they are having their reward in full“ right now, but will get nothing from him unless they follow the example of the Good Samaritan.

It isn’t money that is the root of all evil...it is “the love of money” and what it can buy...yet what genuine and lasting happiness results from the things possessed, if you don’t have good friends, a loving family and good health? You can’t buy any of those things. (Luke 12:15)

Compare your zero sum game statement to the standard of living several thousand years ago when there were only 1 million people and most were living at the edge of starvation.

If you told such people, that in the 21st century there will be 9,000 million people who live in luxury hard to imagine with:

1. central HVAC,
2. indoor plumbing,
3. refrigeration and stoves,
4. cars, trains, luxury ships, planes,
5. technology, including medical science and medications,
6. long (>2x) and safe life expectancies,
7. electrication,
8. so much food many countries have obesity as a health problem of epidemic proporetions.

They would consider such a future a blissful utopia. Obviously, the "poor" today are richer than the rich of days gone by except for land, furs and cool looking rocks and metals.

And the fact that you think life today could ever be viewed as a “blissful utopia”, when education and improvements in diet and hygiene may have given us advantages in some respects....look at the disadvantages that have come with these so called improvements.....how many happy and lasting marriages are there now?....how many well adjusted and happy kids do you know these days? How many people do you know that aren’t taking handfuls of medication for depression, or to maintain their lives because of the overabundance of empty calorie loaded, non-nutritious foods so readily supplied by fast food outlets on every street corner.
Are you walking about in a fog? How are we better off in the ways that count?

It is not the rich that are the enemy of the poor. It is corrupt government. See African roads and economic collapse since "exploitive" colonialists left. Replaced by numerous genocides. And you do everything you can to assist these coercive agents ongoing perpetrating poverty against their own people!

The fact that the unscrupulous ones in this world will exploit their own people is bad enough, but for those in so called civilised nations to do that, and then claim themselves to be “Christians”, leaves me speechless.

The prosperity gospel does not exist in the Bible, otherwise Jesus would have been born rich and lived a lavish lifestyle as the son of a King......what does his humble example teach you about the “love of money”? (1 Tim 6:10) What do John’s words also tell us about what the world promotes?

“Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16  because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17  Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever.”

So who will NOT “remain forever”.....?

 

[Wrangler]

I cannot believe that your attitude is inspired by anything the Bible says about these things....

What do the rich steal from the poor? Their labor

"None are so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." Goethe

ECONOMICS 101
After what I wrote about innovation and business this is your reply, to double down on class envy? Stealing does not create wealth.

Think! Think. We are all naked with no possessions to start. How do we transcend that state of nature to widespread material wealth beyond imagining? It is not the rich stealing anything from the brute but the creative power of the mind, who enriches the mindless brute laborer via the "invisible hand" in The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.

Economics is based on the exchange of value, not stealing. It is the exchange of goods and services. The more exchanges, the more advanced is the economy. The name of the game is productivity through innovation. This leads to greater profit, which is the cause of wealth accumulation. Bill Gates became rich through innovation, not stealing labor from the poor. Indeed, he increased the productive labor of the poor 10x on a global scale.

Regarding the Bible, your segue into class envy shows how far you've come from the sovereign State of Oklahoma improving their education system by including the Bible in its curriculum.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"None are so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." Goethe

And none are so convicted of their “freedom” as the American people, who are led to believe through time honored propaganda that they are in fact “brave and free”. It’s an illusion. All modes of human government are just different arrangements of masters and slaves.
A lot of them work in theory, like communism, but the flawed human element prevents them from being successful. This is why God allows humans to rule one another for now…to demonstrate one undeniable fact…that human governments, no matter what form they take, can never succeed in making their populations happy and secure. Why? Because humans are always corrupted by gaining power over other humans. We are simply not designed to rule ourselves….we were designed to be ruled by the one who made us. This is what Israel found out the hard way when they demanded a human king….it led to nothing but trouble for the whole nation.

ECONOMICS 101
After what I wrote about innovation and business this is your reply, to double down on class envy? Stealing does not create wealth.

Now that is hilarious! You are going to tell me that the criminal elements of this world are not rich through fleecing stupid people? Gambling is addictive and they know it. Can you look at the casino industry and tell me it’s not stealing….legalized robbery of those who can never see that it’s all rigged and controlled by powerful cartels.

We are all naked with no possessions to start. How do we transcend that state of nature to widespread material wealth beyond imagining?

Is that what the Bible gives us as a measure of our success in life? Was Jesus rich “beyond imagining”? If anyone had reason to be wealthy and live the high life, it was “the son of God”…..but his lack of wealth was his hallmark because he knew that “the love of money“ was a satanic trap.
The art of contentment advocated in the Bible is to “want what you have…not to have what you want”. (Luke 12:15)

It is not the rich stealing anything from the brute but the creative power of the mind, who enriches the mindless brute laborer via the "invisible hand" in The Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.

And this is what you advocate? Good grief! This is the attitude of a Christian???
What if you were in the position of the the “brute”, plunged into hard times by circumstances beyond your control? You possess a ‘creative mind’ but the world doesn’t seem to care about you….no one is willing to take you on because you lost your job and are now homeless and live in your car. You can’t even afford a haircut.

Economics is based on the exchange of value, not stealing. It is the exchange of goods and services. The more exchanges, the more advanced is the economy. The name of the game is productivity through innovation. This leads to greater profit, which is the cause of wealth accumulation.

This is so mindlessly stated…..the exchange has to be equivalent, not geared to enrich one party at the expense of the other. The fact that “greater profit” is always the motivating force behind business, means that it will never be sacrificed to accommodate the needs of those who can no longer afford to pay rent or put food on the table (if they have one).
In my country, we don’t even have small change anymore, and haven’t for a long time. The move to digital currency will mean disaster for many people, but because the rich will not suffer, they will carry it out anyway, now already able to track every dollar that is spent to alert the businesses who want to sell us something, access to all our spending habits. It’s been happening for some time. Their technology is tracking everything we do, where we go, and what we spend our money on. AI is listening to what we say via our cell phones. Mention a product and all of a sudden it appears as an ad on our device.
They have no interest in the poor because they are just the drones that keep the hive working for the Queen and her servants. Where are we in that picture?

We are human beings and we should look after each other, especially if we identify as Christians. What did Jesus criticize the Pharisees for? He said that they tended to gravitate towards the wealthy and leave the poor out of their line of vision as somehow unworthy of their time and attention. Jesus showed that “one lost sheep” was worth leaving the whole flock to find, and to bring home to safety and nurturing.

Bill Gates became rich through innovation, not stealing labor from the poor. Indeed, he increased the productive labor of the poor 10x on a global scale.

Bill Gates is used as a model for success????? Are you serious? One of the biggest criminals on the planet who made sure that we had an untested vaxx for the dreaded pandemic that he knew was coming…..and made sure that no one could sue the pharma companies for any adverse effects…..and you hold him up as a beacon of virtue? How many of the people who got forced into taking those vaxxes died or are now permanently disabled from the jab, not from the disease. Another pandemic is predicted by him, but he’ll have another vaxx all ready to go….isn’t he a hero???? Or just rich and evil? His agenda is world depopulation. How will he accomplish that? Creatively…..under the guise of altruism.

There will be great hesitancy by those affected along with their friends and acquaintances for any future untested remedies.
There are troubled times ahead, but all in accord with Bible prophesy. Are we ready for “the great tribulation”?

Is wealth what makes a person a “success” in God’s eyes?
We will all reap what we sow.

Regarding the Bible, your segue into class envy shows how far you've come from the sovereign State of Oklahoma improving their education system by including the Bible in its curriculum.

Just showing what a marriage of church and state leads to….it’s a sham marriage that Christ condemned because no state is run by God.…..I think that is a blind Freddy observation.….but one that many cannot seem to see past, in their ingrained patriotism….satan can create this blindness. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

 

[Wrangler]

All modes of human government are just different arrangements of masters and slaves.

Proving you know nothing about American exceptionalism. Yet, you try to undermine our sovereignty and duties of citizenship.


The Supreme Court ruled during the Washington Administration that US citizens are sovereign without any subjects.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Proving you know nothing about American exceptionalism. Yet, you try to undermine our sovereignty and duties of citizenship.

I had to look that up (American exceptionalism) and clarify in my mind just where you are coming from…..

It was quite enlightening…..from a Google search….

”American exceptionalism”…..the idea that “the United States of America is a unique and even morally superior country for historical, ideological, or religious reasons. Proponents of American exceptionalism generally pair the belief with the claim that the United States is obligated to play a special role in global politics.”

Oh, now I get it…..America is “exceptional“ in the world, meaning that it is superior for a number of reasons and this then justifies their interference in the political matters of other nations, which are by and large, none of their business. This ingrained idea in the minds of Americans, would not gain agreement from non-American nations in similar democratic societies. In fact an Imperialist approach to political matters is usually the way dictatorships work.

We hear the word “imperialism” but it is not often used in a good way….yet it is the American way.

”American exceptionalism suggests that the U.S. has a distinct role in promoting democracy and freedom globally, which often provided a moral justification for its imperialistic actions. This belief led to events such as territorial acquisitions and military interventions under the premise of spreading American ideals.”

America is in love with itself and teaches its citizens to love it too, no matter what….there is much to admire, but also much to detract from the ideals it’s supposed to support.
It purports to be a “Christian” nation, but there is no such thing.
American history told from the other side is very different to what is written in the annuls.

The use of propaganda is widely publicized in countries without freedom, but no one seems to notice how propaganda is used subliminally in the US to convince its citizens that it is somehow the self-appointed guardians and savior of the world, meddling in the politics of other nations as if it is a paragon of virtue in the world. No one sees the USA the way Americans do, because they have so little knowledge of the world outside of their bubble. They are apparently unaware that their gun laws result in so many Americans killing each other, that the death rate by gunshot is the highest in the world for a supposedly civilized nation. Your great nation is armed against itself. Your greatest enemies are your own citizens. How great does that make you?

Your knee jerk reaction to criticism of your nation is an indication of how indoctrinated and out of touch you really are. You actually believe that your nation is the greatest of all time….and yet it will not stand when God brings judgment upon all who have innocent blood on their hands. (Isa 1:15) It will go down like all the rest.

When the judgment comes, it will mean the end of ALL human rulership which is now in the hands of God’s adversary….yours and mine will equally fall.

Daniel foretold….
”In the days of those kings (the current ruling world powers) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”. (Daniel 2:44)
All the kingdoms of the world are in Satan’s hands. God gave them to him to prove his claims of being a better ruler. (Luke 4:5-7)

Jesus taught us to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come” and to put rulership of the human race back where it belongs….with our Creator, in the capable hands of his son and appointed king. Where will America as a nation stand then? It will be crushed out of existence like all the rest…..but genuine Christians within all nations will be saved because they did not fall for the propaganda of national imperialism. “No part of the world” means no part of its rulership in any way.

You speak of sovereignty and duties of citizenship without due regard for the superiority of the Creator as Supreme Sovereign over all…..we obey him as ruler…not man. (Acts 5:29)

I pray you will see the truth before it is too late…..the door of opportunity is still open, but we don’t know for how long…

The Supreme Court ruled during the Washington Administration that US citizens are sovereign without any subjects.

And what does the Bible say about sovereignty? (Psalm 83:18)
You place your government on a par with God’s Kingdom….big mistake….one I believe you will live to regret.

 

[Wrangler]

Oh, now I get it…..America is “exceptional“ in the world, meaning that it is superior for a number of reasons

Yes! And this exceptional reason is the USA is the only country in the history of the world founded on the morally superior principle of individual liberty and limited government. The only one.

Seems like you are embracing THE PERVERSION OF EQUALITY of government.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes! And this exceptional reason is the USA is the only country in the history of the world founded on the morally superior principle of individual liberty and limited government. The only one.

And you believe that, right? Who told you there was liberty in the USA? What freedoms do people have in your country that others don’t have or that they don’t abuse? Isn’t this the lesson of the garden of Eden? The first humans had liberty too, but they abused its boundaries and brought great consequences on themselves and the rest of humanity. Were their restrictions unreasonable?

What is “liberty” when all is said and done? It’s not a word heard often outside the US.

“The idea of liberty is enshrined in the United States Constitution, which guarantees a number of fundamental freedoms such as freedom of speech, religion, and the press.”......But in the global pandemic we saw impositions on these especially in silencing any voice against what the government wanted to do about the situation. Fuelled by false information, steps were undertaken to play down any opposition to their approach, even if the voice was a credentialed medical expert in the field of immunology. So many qualified medical practitioners were de-platformed and gaslighted as trouble makers when all they wanted to do was sound a warning against an untested new vaxx that in hindsight was a complete fiasco, but made big pharma and their promoters, very rich.

It was touted to prevent transmission of the virus, as were masks, but both proved to be completely ineffective as hospitals filled up with vaxxed people, many of whom succumbed In death. The one thing they didn’t tell the public via their controlled media outlets, was that there were medications available to deal with the virus but doctors were told not to use them. Your President actually dealt with the virus himself using those banned medications. What is going on here?

The other thing they didn’t tell you was that no one actually died of cv19.....those who died, succumbed to other health issues exacerbated by the virus....the kind of health issues we see in poor countries where nutritional deficiency is common or in western nations where fast food is too freely available and morbid obesity was a contributing factor.....so the death toll was nothing like what the public were led to believe. They would say that someone died “with the virus”....not “from” it, to cover the fact that they were lying.

Now, I don’t know where you get your trust in these people but all I can say is that Americans have very short memories.....since when has America enjoyed the liberty she claims, and how can she be proud of all the blood she has spilled on foreign soil? How long has it been since the US fought a war on its own mainland soil? She is a fomenter of wars because one of her biggest sources of income is in the sale of arms and military equipment.

It’s so easy to lose sight of reality when you are never told the truth about anything. It will be so interesting to see where we go from here.....2025 is going to be an interesting year.....

Seems like you are embracing THE PERVERSION OF EQUALITY of government.

Heaven forbid that there should be equality in government.....isn’t a democracy supposed to be a “government by the people and for the people”......please tell me when that has ever been your reality.

When Daniel was explaining the King’s disturbing dream of the image that collapsed by a stone carved out of a mountain, not by human hands, (Daniel ch 2) he described the last ruling power as like iron and clay mixed but not cohesive. This aptly discribes democratic rule....the strength of the government is undermined by the will of the people, so that no one is always happy with the way things are handled. Even a good idea is prevented from implementation by the very system that put the person in office. It depends on who is better at propaganda and how much money is wasted on political campaigns.

Imagine if all those millions of dollars paid for political campaigns, the ridiculous salaries paid to CEO’s or payments to sports stars and celebrities for movie roles....were instead channeled into affordable housing for the disadvantaged. Aren’t they “the people” too? Is the system that promotes wealth at the expense of the poor really the greatest system on earth? How does God view that?

The world has never been more lopsided as far as the rich and the poor are concerned...

“World’s top 1% own more wealth than 95% of humanity, as “the shadow of global oligarchy hangs over UN General Assembly,” says Oxfam.”​

Let that sink in.....do most people know what an oligarchy is? They are soon to find out.

 

[Wrangler]

And you believe that, right? Who told you there was liberty in the USA?

No need to explain yourself; only constantly attack my position, eh?

Oklahoma has acted to improve its public education system by including Bible study as part of the curriculum. No one has to tell me there is liberty in the US, there it is, right before your indoctrinated and enslaved eyes.

 

[Berean]

As the school system has deteriorated over the last few decades into a den of immorality, and scientifically inspired falsehoods on the origins of living things, many Witnesses have opted to home-school their kids....taking them out of that environment completely and allowing them to grow up free from its horrible influence! I feel for any children in that environment.....just the bullying alone is sending many teens to suicide. Here in Australia, we have home-schooling curriculums online so that standards are met and no home-schooled child is disadvantaged educationally, but way advanced in their attitudes and maturity because of not having to endure that awful environment. They mature in a way that the school system destroys.

Many Bible Students in the States are teachers, it's a great job since it gives them the summers off to attend local and international conventions. I've known a few of my brethren who have home-schooled their children. Unfortunately, we live in a world where one salary doesn't pay the bills, and both spouses need to work. But I agree, the education system today is horrible.

May I ask whose Kingdom Jesus is the head of? Theocracy is “rule by God” which is facilitated by his appointed King along with his “joint heirs”. (Rev 20:6)

While it is true Jesus referred to the Kingdom as "my Father's Kingdom" (Matthew 26:29) he also referred to it as "my Kingdom", he stated in Luke 22:29, 30 that God gave him a Kingdom, which he was giving to his disciples: "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me." In John 18:36 he again refers to "my kingdom."

Keep in mind the possibility of two Kingdom's. IT's NOT God's Kingdom UNTIL all is right in the world, that is until Jesus restored all things. So the Kingdom of Christ, which includes his body members, will restore mankind and the earth to perfection, when that is accomplished, then we're told in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 that in "the end, when [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.'

I know how hard it is for Americans particularly to keep church and state separate. We have similar roots but ended up in completely different operating systems....neither one of them superior.

The problem with the separation of church and state is that most people have no clue what is meant by that statement. Remember, in the UK, the King and or Queen were not only the head of the country, but also of the church. There was only one church, the Church of England. When America's founding fathers put together the Declaration and other laws, it specifically stated that America would not be a church/state system like that of England, but that people can worship freely as they saw fit and that the government would not dictate to them. Of course some 250 years later the United States is not so united, and the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution have been for the most part deemed outdated. Our founding fathers would be turning over in their graves if they say what America has become.

People running for office and becoming million and billionaires as a result, serving for 50 years or more, serving themselves and not their constituents. It's a sad state of affairs, and things will certainly get worse before they get better, but it will not be by man's hand.

 

[Berean]

There is more than “the little flock” who identify as “true disciples of Christ”.....the little flock are seen in heaven with Christ but “the great crowd” are seen surviving the great tribulation on earth.
John identified them in Revelation 7:1-4; 9-10; 13-14.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, as those verses you share say nothing about Christians living on earth. Like you, I believe in two salvations, one heavenly, the other earthly. But there is no call to live on earth. the call is to go to heaven. When that number is filled and complete, the rest of mankind will inherit the earth.

You have accepted only a part of John’s Revelation.....at the time of Russell’s writings, this “great crowd” was unknown. All of the modern day servants of Jehovah were originally part of “the little flock”, but it became apparent in time that many were refraining from baptism because of no anointing with God’s spirit confirming their “heavenly calling”......so it was finally determined, as the numbers grew, who these ones were......at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in 1935, it was revealed that there was an unnumbered “great crowd” who were to serve God on earth, “coming out of the great tribulation” as survivors......when it was asked who in the audience identified as being part of that “great crowd”, many stood up to thunderous applause, finally understanding that their love for Jehovah and his Christ still gave them a place in the Kingdom...as it’s subjects.....the ones over whom “the little flock” would rule, and act as priests. (Rev 20:6) They were baptized without delay.

Would you like to know why "many were refraining from baptism because of no anointing with God’s spirit confirming their 'heavenly calling'"? First of all, at that convention in 1935 when Judge Rutherford made the announcement: "Behold the great multitude." most if not all were baptized JW's, so it wasn't that no one was getting baptized because they didn't feel "anointed." No, the reason was, because after the death of Russell, a shift in focus was made by the Judge. In Russell's day, importance was stressed on character development, the development of the fruitages of the spirit (Gal. 5:22, 23). To be more Christlike (Romans 13:14; Gal. 3:270. While doctrine was important, developing the fruitages of the spirit was seen as more important. Doctrine can be learned in a relatively short time, but developing a Christlike character takes a lifetime, maybe two or three lifetimes, which of course we don't have. Our heavenly Father isn't going to give immortality to just anyone. That is why those who are called must go through trials and hardships, in perfecting their faith.

Now, the scriptures do not say that Christians will be completely free from sin in this life. However, it does state that God expects us to be perfect, just like our heavenly Father (Matthew 5:48). This creates a challenge: God asks for a level of moral perfection that we can't reach, kind of like the law the Jews could not obey. And both of these issues find fulfillment in the man Christ Jesus. (Romans 3:23-26)

Now, while Bible Students separated from the Society and continued to study what we call the "Harvest Message" and build on character development: faith, humility, meekness, knowledge, temperance, patience, kindness, prayer, love, etc. Judge Rutherford was introducing new doctrines, and with each new light, he was extinguishing old light, even some that he had just introduced a year or so before. That kept his followers very busy, as they spent most of their time studying his writings, trying to keep up with all the new information he was introducing. On top of that he had his followers "advertise, advertise and advertise" the king and his kingdom. "But it was an ever-changing advertisement. To top it all off, he away with character development. Stating in the May 1, 1926 Watchtower, and I quote "Character Development is a tool of the Devil."

So, with trying to keep up with all the new light that was constantly changing, demanding that the rank and file go preaching and doing away with building a Christlike character, is it any wonder that most felt NO confirmation of spirit-begettal? Of being called of God to run for the prize of the upward call? (Phil 3:14) After all, they were (and I mean no disrespect) simply book peddlers. They were for the most part like the Old Testament Israelites, obeying, but never really knowing who God was. Oh they were proud, the chosen, but clueless.

The purpose of the preaching work is to warn and inform people about how to escape a coming calamity. One that is even worse than the one that confronted the inhabitants of Jerusalem back in the first century.

Only those who heed the warning and come into Jehovah’s spiritual family of worshippers will survive the tribulation that is coming. The anointed ones will all safely be in heaven by the time Armageddon is fought, but the great crowd will emerge as survivors.....

Actually, the purpose of the preaching work is to call out a people for his name, a "little flock' because the world of mankind cannot be restored until the little flock is complete. That is the call of the church, there is no other call. You can twist all of the scriptures you want, but you will not find any other call. You quoted Revelation 7, in regards a great multitude coming out of the great tribulation, may I ask, were they called? You connect them with the other sheep of John 10, but a closer look at the context of that chapter shows that Jesus was speaking of the Gentile, who were not of the Jewish fold.

 

[Berean]

That is not what Jesus said....in Mark 13:10 as part of his prophesy on the end times, Jesus said....”Also, in all the nations, the good news has to be preached first.” This is not just about Jerusalem, but “in all the nations” the good news has to be preached. Who are preaching it in all nations?
All nations will hear the good news, but not every person will for various reasons. For those who have not heard it, Paul wrote...
“For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15  They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16  This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.”

The “gospel” or "good news" is the high calling of the heavenly Kingdom. The Kingdom is a government of kings. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world.” (John 18:36) He also said, “Take up your cross and follow me.” (Mark 10:21) The good news has been preached, whether or not it is understood. The Bible has been printed in almost all tongues in all nations. Bible societies, which started a little after 1799, were preparation for the Harvest, for they flooded the world with Bibles. We should give credit to missionaries. It's true that we have been blessed with much truth, but many made their calling and election sure without knowing the deeper things of God.

The great bulk of Christians were faithful without what we call "present truth". With so much information available today, we're more responsible for the truth that is due.

Then there's the parallel verse, Matthew 24:14, reads, “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” The “end” is the Harvest.

Verse 14 gives us a time perspective. Verses 9-13 describe a period of time until the gospel would be a witness in all nations. When the disciples asked in verse 3, “What shall be the sign of your presence and of the end of the age?” Jesus did not just strictly answer their question but told them about the whole age. He used that occasion to give them an outline of the history of the entire Gospel Age. Thus he went far beyond their question by also telling them what would happen in the interim before the end of the age. This information was needed, for they themselves were soon to be hailed before synagogues, etc. In fact, all of the apostles had abrupt deaths except John. Many disciples also died through persecution. Jesus died in AD 33, and 33 years later Nero was on the scene persecuting Christians. Therefore, Jesus’ words here (and in Luke 21) were especially helpful to the early Church, as well as down through the age. Verse 14 alerted the early Church not to expect the Kingdom very soon. (Although the import of Jesus’ words did not sink in at the time, the Holy Spirit later called them to remembrance.) Before the end of the age could come, the gospel had to be preached in all the world for a witness. Certainly the disciples in the first century knew that that had not happened yet. They realized the experiences described in verses 9-13 would take place up to the time the gospel would be preached in all nations for a witness.

 

[Berean]

Their response to the good news, determines their destiny, but as Paul also said...

“For the scripture says: “No one who rests his faith on him will be disappointed.” 12  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. 13  For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” 14  However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15  How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”” (Rom 10:11-15)

These preachers are “sent out”......but by whom? (Matt 28:19-20) No one in your religion.

Let's look at these verses. Bare with me, please. Paul was talking about Jesus again. He said that if the Jews believed in Him and His message, they wouldn’t feel embarrassed, and they would be saved. In Isaiah 28:16, it says, “So the Lord GOD says, Look, I am laying a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a valuable cornerstone, a solid foundation: whoever believes in it will not be in a hurry.” This stone represents Jesus, the “tested stone” and the “solid foundation.” We need to think carefully before making big decisions and not rush into things (Luke 14:27-30). If we take the time to consider our choices, the commitment we make for life will be something we won’t regret later.

Paul talked about this lesson a lot in his letter. Anyone who was really listening should have understood from the Bible that Christian Jews and Gentiles are the same. Everyone has sinned, but God offers forgiveness to everyone who believes in Jesus. "The same Lord is generous to everyone who asks for his help."

Verse 13 can be confusing. There are two kinds of being saved, and one of them is being saved from not knowing or not hearing the truth. Paul pointed out, “How can someone understand if no one is sent to teach them?” This means that God uses people to help those who really want to learn about Him. After that, it’s up to each person to notice when they feel that call. Some people who discovered the truth in amazing ways say that their prayers were answered. Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord can be saved from sin and can have a new life. You can’t just take one verse and make it the only focus; you need to look at the whole topic.

There are many verses that support verse 14. For example, it says, “The eyes of the LORD ... run to and fro through the whole earth,” looking for those who are genuinely seeking answers (Zech. 4:10).

When Paul quoted Isaiah 52:7, he used it in a meaningful way. He said, “How wonderful it is on the mountains when someone brings good news, shares peace, announces salvation, and tells Zion that God is in charge!” The original message from Isaiah was about a Kingdom setting, which is different from how Paul applied it in Romans. He was showing that God’s way is to reach out to those who are really eager to learn. This has been true for us and many others—most likely for many Christians.

Before the Gospel Age, the people of Israel didn’t need to be taught about the Messiah. But Paul explained that after the Messiah came, the Jews who believed in him needed to openly acknowledge him and share his message with others. The idea is, “Those who are willing to listen should hear the truth.” Sharing the message is not just a duty; it’s a special opportunity and a source of happiness.

As mentioned in Isaiah 52:7, God will save the Holy Remnant from Jacob's Trouble, when an earthquake shakes the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:3-5). After that, a series of amazing events will happen really quickly. One-sixth of Gog, the survivors, will go back to their home countries and share their firsthand stories about the incredible things that happened during the rescue of Israel from total destruction (Ezek. 39:1,2). Just like in the past when God helped His people in battle, He will step in again. This will show everyone that the Kingdom is starting.

Let's take a moment to understand what Isaiah 52:7 is really saying. It talks about how wonderful it is when someone brings good news, especially about peace and salvation. The verse says, “How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem” (Isa. 52:7-9). Many people like to think of these verses in a spiritual way, but some parts suggest they are really about the future of Israel. Phrases like “the LORD shall bring again Zion,” “ye waste places of Jerusalem,” “the LORD hath comforted his people,” and “he hath redeemed Jerusalem” point to this. If we look at verse 10, it says, “The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” This shows that what is being talked about will happen in the future, and when God shows His “holy arm,” it will be a sign of His power.

Isaiah 52:7 is often referenced when talking about the Harvest work. This is a good way to use it, as long as we see it as a guiding idea rather than a complete reality. The main idea is that we feel inspired to share a message that has brought us joy. We want others to understand what God has done for us by forgiving our sins, and we want them to know that He has a kind plan for everyone. The message of salvation tells us that God not only exists, but He also remains in control, even when we see bad things happening in the world.

 

[Berean]

We are not the ones who determine who will be resurrected after Armageddon.....that is for Jesus to decide as he calls all the dead from their graves (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)....even the “unrighteousness ones”.....”those who did vile things” will be given a period of judgment if what they did in the past was done in ignorance. Today, there are only “sheep and goats”....all humanity fall into one category or the other....only Jesus knows which are which. Many are convinced otherwise. (Matt 7:21-23)

Yeah, I know, you got new light on that not so long ago.

Isaiah foretold that Jesus would “not judge by what appears to his eyes, nor reprove simply according to what his ears hear.” He would “judge the lowly with fairness.” (Isa 11:3-4) Why is this encouraging? Because we live in a world filled with bias and prejudice. We all long for the perfect Judge, who will never judge us by our outward appearance alone.

We are to preach what Jesus preached.....life has been conditional since the beginning....”obey and live...disobey and die” has never changed since Eden. Life or death were the only two options, even for Israel.....so the message is the same today as it has always been....repentance must precede baptism and after baptism, obedience is the prime requirement. Jesus commanded us to preach.....right to “the end”. (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)
What is it “he end” of, in your belief system?

You are all so ‘left behind’ in your understanding as if nothing new could be added after Russell’s death. Did he not expect someone to take his place and continue his work? He knew that the work was in its infancy and that as the day for judgment drew closer, new things would come to light (Prov 4:18)...you have been left in the darkness, clinging to a man who is now in heaven urging you to see the truth. It’s not about the teachings of one man and it never was. Russell was not alone, but was part of a body...the growing and developing body of Christ in this time of the end, given a very important commission......the majority of whom are now in heaven about to take up their roles in the administration of the Kingdom we have been praying for, for almost 2000 years!

The problem I see with your reasoning and theology, is that you are not "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Tim. 2:15) That is you're mixing scripture to create a theology that isn't there.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No need to explain yourself; only constantly attack my position, eh?

If only there was not so much to expose……it’s not an attack to tell the truth Wrangler…..but in the words of a famous actor in a famous movie…..perhaps ”you can’t handle the truth”! It fights with your ingrained patriotism.

As citizens of God’s kingdom, Christians have no allegiance to any to any political nation….we don’t have permission for dual citizenship. We have to choose one or the other…

Oklahoma has acted to improve its public education system by including Bible study as part of the curriculum. No one has to tell me there is liberty in the US, there it is, right before your indoctrinated and enslaved eyes.

Since your constitution guarantees freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, are other faiths promised that their holy writings will be made available to the children of Oklahoma too? If not, then why not, unless you are working against the very thing you support?

Your arguments reveal a very limited understanding of what Christ and his apostles taught.
I wonder if God appreciates the under-spiritualization of his word, or whether he just wants us to observe his clearly stated laws? No tap dancing required….