Apokatastasis in the early church

[St. SteVen]

Correct.

Aionios on the other hand -

Joh 3:16 - for God did so love the world, that His Son--the only begotten--He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. [ YLT ]

Whoops....

Good point. It can mean many things. (except eternal)

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" or "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

[

 

[Lambano]

Good point. It can mean many things. (except eternal)

What Greek adjective does mean "eternal", then?

 

[Lambano]

If it adds to the conversation, my understanding is that the Jewish people at the time (and to some extent still do) believed in two ages, the Olam ha-zeh, the world-as-it-is, and the Olam ha-ba, the World to Come. You can see this repeatedly in the Gospels and Acts. Stoic philosophy taught that the ages are cyclical, and each one ends in a Great Conflagration. You can see this reflected in 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10, sandwiched around the hopeful promise of 2 Peter 3:8-9.

Unfortunately, since the Age to Come never ends in Jewish thought, age-punishment in the aion-to-come doesn't buy you anything. It might in Stoic philosophy.

You need to show proof-of-age before entering this establishment.

 

[St. SteVen]

What Greek adjective does mean "eternal", then?

You got me there. - LOL
Only God is eternal.
So, I would say it has to do with context. This is all I find.



[

 

[BarneyFife]

As a young child, long before I was able to read the Bible, I knew what heaven and hell were.
It is woven into our social fabric.

[

What do these concepts mean to you now, insofar as they are represented in the Bible?

:)

 

[amigo de christo]

1.) Lets say you are not a Christian.

You're not born again.. You've never Trusted IN Christ... You never cared.........and you still dont.

Then, someone who teaches UNIVERSALISM............tells you...>>"You're saved... You're a Christian......Everyone Is".

So, Reader..... what has just happened to the unbeliever?

= .) > They remain an unbeliever, ...not born again.......falsely believing they are going to Heaven.

So, this means they are going to HELL,.. John 3:36..... believing they are not,.......... because a Universalist, has just sent them there.


2.) Universalism, is Satanic, as it completely eliminates "FAITH", and "Justification by Faith"..

UNIVERSALISM denies that Jesus said "YOU must be born again".. .by lying this lie... "you already are"... "everyone is saved".

Universalism .. this Lie of the Devil.... is literally teaching that the Born again and the Christ Rejector, are THE SAME.

Universalism says that Jesus is a LIAR.. as Jesus said..."unless you believe in me, you shall die in your sins"..

Universalism teaches that the Christ Rejector and the CHRISTian... are Both are Saved... are .Both are going to Heaven.

That is a Satanic Lie. It is a "DOCTRINE OF DEVILS"..... designed to send people to Hell.


A.) Do not trust people who teach this (Universalism) = Satanic Lie.. Do not believe their Lies.

Yes indeed my friend . Satan has always desire the death of humanity .
And he can quoate scrips but when he do it is to point to a lie .
example. GOD is love , God desires not the death of the wicked .
But HE uses that to IMPLY the idea of universalism , To imply that because GOD is love and Because HE does not
desire the death of any , that it dont matter if one believes or not they wont perish .
HE uses scrips to imply a lie .
but the lambs heed not his voice .
HERE is how the lambs use scripture . I will use the same one .
GOD is LOVE . GOD desires not the death of the wicked
THIS IS WHY HE SENT THE SON so that all who do BELIEVE in HIM would not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
Notice both the same scripture was used .
AND ONE version POINTED TO DEATH
while the other version POINTED TO LIFE , TO JESUS THE CHRIST .

 

[amigo de christo]

What do these concepts mean to you now, insofar as they are represented in the Bible?

:)

Satan has always desire the death of humanity .
And he can quoate scrips but when he do it is to point to a lie .
example. GOD is love , God desires not the death of the wicked .
But HE uses that to IMPLY the idea of universalism , To imply that because GOD is love and Because HE does not
desire the death of any , that it dont matter if one believes or not they wont perish .
HE uses scrips to imply a lie .
but the lambs heed not his voice .
HERE is how the lambs use scripture . I will use the same one .
GOD is LOVE . GOD desires not the death of the wicked
THIS IS WHY HE SENT THE SON so that all who do BELIEVE in HIM would not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
Notice both the same scripture was used .
AND ONE version POINTED TO DEATH
while the other version POINTED TO LIFE , TO JESUS THE CHRIST

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
As a young child, long before I was able to read the Bible, I knew what heaven and hell were.
It is woven into our social fabric.

What do these concepts mean to you now, insofar as they are represented in the Bible?

Interesting question, thanks.

I view them as MISrepresented in the Bible.
The word hell should not even be in the Bible. I have a whole list of translations that have removed it. (replaced)

Our Bible came from the western/Latin-speaking Church of Rome. So, it is steeped in the Damnationist view.
Growing up in the evangelical church, I was never told that there were two other views of the final judgement.
Damnationism (a word that was NEVER used) was the only option. And it had always been the fly in the ointment to me.

It was just in the last five years or so that I was introduced to all three doctrines of the final judgment.
Mostly as a way to understand how Universalism fit. It seemed completely foreign to me initially.
My evangelical apologetics went 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

The first BIG hurdle to get over was that if there was no eternal punishment, then there was no eternal life. Say what?

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The first BIG hurdle to get over was that if there was no eternal punishment, then there was no eternal life. Say what?

Matthew 25:46 NIV
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Relief came when I realized that one age follows the next.
After an age of restoration comes endless ages for all eternity. (phew)

Ephesians 2:6-8 NIV
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

[ cc: @BarneyFife

 

[St. SteVen]

Ephesians 2:6-8 NIV
And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Putting a Damnationist twist on this would be so weird.

God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (while the others burned in endless torment)

[

 

[Marvelloustime]

Satan has always desire the death of humanity .
And he can quoate scrips but when he do it is to point to a lie .
example. GOD is love , God desires not the death of the wicked .
But HE uses that to IMPLY the idea of universalism , To imply that because GOD is love and Because HE does not
desire the death of any , that it dont matter if one believes or not they wont perish .
HE uses scrips to imply a lie .
but the lambs heed not his voice .
HERE is how the lambs use scripture . I will use the same one .
GOD is LOVE . GOD desires not the death of the wicked
THIS IS WHY HE SENT THE SON so that all who do BELIEVE in HIM would not perish but have EVERLASTING LIFE .
Notice both the same scripture was used .
AND ONE version POINTED TO DEATH
while the other version POINTED TO LIFE , TO JESUS THE CHRIST

@amigo de christo

 

[amigo de christo]

Putting a Damnationist twist on this would be so weird.

God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (while the others burned in endless torment)

[

 

[Behold]

God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (while the others burned in endless torment)

THe Torment found beyond the grave.... that the Christ rejector never born again, receives,..... is initiated by them, during their entire lifetime of Sinning.

THE Cross is a warning that is also a Welcoming..

See, its warning unbelievers that Hell is the end result of their refusing God's Love.
So, they are being warned that THEIR CHOICE is eternal.

The Cross is also a Welcome.....>Its God saying....>>>>"Welcome to Heaven.. Welcome to Forgiveness"... Welcome to Eternal life with me".

 

[amigo de christo]

THe Torment found beyond the grave.... that the Christ rejector never born again, receives,..... is initiated by them, during their entire lifetime of Sinning.

THE Cross is a warning that is also a Welcoming..

See, its warning unbelievers that Hell is the end result of their refusing God's Love.
So, they are being warned that THEIR CHOICE is eternal.

The Cross is also a Welcome.....>Its God saying....>>>>"Welcome to Heaven.. Welcome to Forgiveness"... Welcome to Eternal life with me".

Choose ye this day . Let all call upon the THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .

 

[Behold]

Choose ye this day . Let all call upon the THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .

Reader,

Choose this day.........Receive Jesus TODAY....

Never wait, as you dont know when Hebrews 9:27 is going to find you.

What could be more terrible then to wake up in Hell, and think....>>"I knew to believe......I knew it was true... why did i WAIT....I thought i had more time.....".. !!

And you didnt. ..

 

[Wick Stick]

The NT refers to David as a prophet, and his Psalms contain prophecies.

Acts 2:29 Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32
God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.

Yes indeed. I think if you read the beginning of this thread, you'll find that I pointed out this same verse.

The problem (is it really a problem?) is that David himself never says "I am a prophet" or "this is a prophecy." Yet Jesus, Peter and the apostles treat his Psalms as the work of a prophet. There are many Psalms that are "fulfilled," even though if you read the Psalm there is nothing there to suggest that anything is being predicted.

Either there is (a) prophecy in the Bible that isn't indicated by the text, or (b) the apostles handled the Old Testament quite differently than we do today. Or both... both is an option as well.

 

[Wick Stick]

Putting a Damnationist twist on [Ephesians 2] would be so weird.

God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace,
expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (while the others burned in endless torment)

[

Weird, yes.

The salvation mentioned in Ephesians 2 is about the people there being regenerated - coming to a belief in Jesus. This is the beginning of their Christian walk; not the end. There's nothing in the chapter about a future resurrection OR damnation. That's not in view.

 

[Behold]

There are many Psalms that are "fulfilled," even though if you read the Psalm there is nothing there to suggest that anything is being predicted.

David prophesied this....concerning Jesus.

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


And David prophesied this concerning the Born again.

Romans 4:8

 

[Stumpmaster]

David himself never says "I am a prophet" or "this is a prophecy."

Self-proclamation is not required of prophets, although there are examples of something akin to it in the Bible.

Quote:
There are individuals in the Bible who proclaim themselves to be prophets or are recognized as prophets by others. Here are a few notable examples:

Old Testament​

1. Moses: While Moses does not explicitly call himself a prophet, God declares him to be one. In Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses speaks to the Israelites about God raising up a prophet like him: "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."
2. Jeremiah: In Jeremiah 1:4-5, God calls Jeremiah to be a prophet: "The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" Jeremiah accepted and proclaimed his prophetic role.
3. Amos: In Amos 7:14-15, Amos states his call to prophecy: "I was neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I was a shepherd, and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees. But the Lord took me from tending the flock and said to me, ‘Go, prophesy to my people Israel.’"

New Testament​

1. John the Baptist: In John 1:22-23, when questioned by priests and Levites, John the Baptist identifies himself with the prophetic voice from Isaiah: "John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, ‘I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, "Make straight the way for the Lord."’"
2. Jesus: While Jesus is more than a prophet in Christian theology, He acknowledges His prophetic role. In Luke 13:33, Jesus says, "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!"

These examples highlight individuals who were called by God to serve as His messengers, proclaiming His word and guiding His people.
[Copilot Information]

 

[David in NJ]

Self-proclamation is not required of prophets, although there are examples of something akin to it in the Bible.

Quote:
There are individuals in the Bible who proclaim themselves to be prophets or are recognized as prophets by others. Here are a few notable examples:

Old Testament​

1. Moses: While Moses does not explicitly call himself a prophet, God declares him to be one. In Deuteronomy 18:15, Moses speaks to the Israelites about God raising up a prophet like him: "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."
2. Jeremiah: In Jeremiah 1:4-5, God calls Jeremiah to be a prophet: "The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.'" Jeremiah accepted and proclaimed his prophetic role.
3. Amos: In Amos 7:14-15, Amos states his call to prophecy: "I was neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet, but I was a shepherd, and I also took care of sycamore-fig trees. But the Lord took me from tending the flock and said to me, ‘Go, prophesy to my people Israel.’"

New Testament​

1. John the Baptist: In John 1:22-23, when questioned by priests and Levites, John the Baptist identifies himself with the prophetic voice from Isaiah: "John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, ‘I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, "Make straight the way for the Lord."’"
2. Jesus: While Jesus is more than a prophet in Christian theology, He acknowledges His prophetic role. In Luke 13:33, Jesus says, "In any case, I must press on today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!"

These examples highlight individuals who were called by God to serve as His messengers, proclaiming His word and guiding His people.
[Copilot Information]

Job was a un-named prophet also.

It is always about whom God calls a person to be, regardless if that person is rejected by all.