Earning Knowledge of God / Eternal Life

[GracePeace]

It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27).

I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.

The same seems to be said in Revelation 2, 3 ("To the one who conquers...").
James seems to say the same.

Yet, still, God, knowing God, is too good to be earned by what we do--no amount of good works, even good works done by the power of the Spirit of Grace through faith, what would be considered "obedience", can pay for the sins we commit that separate us from God (Is 59:1), only Christ's sacrifice is meritorious enough and can pay that debt and restore us to God.

Yet Romans 14:5,23 seem to affirm that ongoing justification, leading to ultimate justification (Ro 2), is by doing things you believe are correct.

I don't understand... but I do understand God is too good to earn by works, and that we are nothing, and it may be an issue of pride to think we'll be right and accepted only if we do good rather than receiving eternal life as a gift, so I do ask God to keep my pride from deceiving me into rejecting God as a gift because of being deluded into thinking I have to prove my (non-existent) goodness by doing good.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27).

I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.

The same seems to be said in Revelation 2, 3 ("To the one who conquers...").
James seems to say the same.

Yet, still, God, knowing God, is too good to be earned by what we do--no amount of good works, even good works done by the power of the Spirit of Grace through faith, what would be considered "obedience", can pay for the sins we commit that separate us from God (Is 59:1), only Christ's sacrifice is meritorious enough and can pay that debt and restore us to God.

Yet Romans 14:5,23 seem to affirm that ongoing justification, leading to ultimate justification (Ro 2), is by doing things you believe are correct.

I don't understand... but I do understand God is too good to earn by works, and that we are nothing, and it may be an issue of pride to think we'll be right and accepted only if we do good rather than receiving eternal life as a gift, so I do ask God to keep my pride from deceiving me into rejecting God as a gift because of being deluded into thinking I have to prove my (non-existent) goodness by doing good.

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Discern Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

These Gentiles are born again Christians as we see before in chapter 1:13. They have a new nature created by God and the prophecies of the New Covenant have been fulfilled in them. They no longer have a sin nature, but are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Romans 7:5-6 "5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter, and Romans 8:9, "9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

 

[GracePeace]

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Discern Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

These Gentiles are born again Christians as we see before in chapter 1:13. They have a new nature created by God and the prophecies of the New Covenant have been fulfilled in them. They no longer have a sin nature, but are no longer in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Romans 7:5-7 and Romans 8:9.

Yes, they are believing Gentiles--in other words, because they are living right by the power of the Spirit of Grace (Ro 6:14) they will be repaid eternal life, and, yet, Paul is warning the Jewish believers in the Roman Church that they are storing up wrath for themselves because of their hypocritical unrighteousness (Ro 2), as he also warns "if you live after the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh you will live" (Ro 8:12,13).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, they are believing Gentiles--in other words, because they are living right by the power of the Spirit of Grace (Ro 6:14) they will be repaid eternal life, and, yet, Paul is warning the Jewish believers in the Roman Church that they are storing up wrath for themselves because of their hypocritical unrighteousness (Ro 2), as he also warns "if you live after the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh you will live" (Ro 8:12,13).

It is good that you already know that the Roman 2 Gentiles have already been born again of the Holy Spirit and are Christians. You are the only one I've heard of that knows they are Christians.

 

[GracePeace]

It is good that you already know that the Roman 2 Gentiles have already been born again of the Holy Spirit and are Christians. You are the only one I've heard of that knows they are Christians.

1. Yeah, but that doesn't solve my dilemma LOL
2. It is obvious from the text, so I didn't need anyone to teach me; that said, N.T. Wright, a well-known teacher, teaches, far and wide, that, indeed, these are believing Gentiles.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1. Yeah, but that doesn't solve my dilemma LOL
2. It is obvious from the text, so I didn't need anyone to teach me; that said, N.T. Wright, a well-known teacher, teaches, far and wide, that, indeed, these are believing Gentiles.

I've heard radio pastors say that those Gentiles only have the "measure of faith" that God gives mankind, and are not Christians.

 

[GracePeace]

I've heard radio pastors say that those Gentiles only have the "measure of faith" that God gives mankind, and are not Christians.

Yes, the majority of believers I've interacted with have employed various ways of "understanding" Ro 2 that result in denying what is obviously being taught.

I think that's their way of solving the same problem I'm having--but I'm not going to do that.

 

[GracePeace]

I've heard radio pastors say that those Gentiles only have the "measure of faith" that God gives mankind, and are not Christians.

Also I wouldn't think all men have a measure of faith. That verse refers to believers. Unbelievers don't have a measure of faith, or they would be pleasing to God (Heb 11), but they are not in the Spirit but in the flesh, thus not able to submit to God's Law and incapable of pleasing God (Ro 8).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Also I wouldn't think all men have a measure of faith. That verse refers to believers. Unbelievers don't have a measure of faith, or they would be pleasing to God (Heb 11), but they are not in the Spirit but in the flesh, thus not able to submit to God's Law and incapable of pleasing God (Ro 8).

I see three different gifts given by each member of the Trinity.

Father: Romans 12 (mankind to become saved)
Holy Spirit: Mark 16 (individual) and 1 Cor. 12 (profit of all)
Son: Ephesians 4 (offices in the church)

 

[GracePeace]

I see three different gifts given by each member of the Trinity.

Father: Romans 12 (mankind to become saved)
Holy Spirit: Mark 16 (individual) and 1 Cor. 12 (profit of all)
Son: Ephesians 4 (offices in the church)

"Measure of faith" is something a believer has; if an unbeliever had a "measure of faith", they, ipso facto, would not qualify as an unbeliever.

 

[GracePeace]

I see three different gifts given by each member of the Trinity.

Father: Romans 12 (mankind to become saved)
Holy Spirit: Mark 16 (individual) and 1 Cor. 12 (profit of all)
Son: Ephesians 4 (offices in the church)

To speak of an unbeliever as if they had a measure of faith would be like referring to a "married bachelor"--by dint of their constituent qualities, these things cannot be.

 

[GodsGrace]

It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27).

I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.

The same seems to be said in Revelation 2, 3 ("To the one who conquers...").
James seems to say the same.

Yet, still, God, knowing God, is too good to be earned by what we do--no amount of good works, even good works done by the power of the Spirit of Grace through faith, what would be considered "obedience", can pay for the sins we commit that separate us from God (Is 59:1), only Christ's sacrifice is meritorious enough and can pay that debt and restore us to God.

Yet Romans 14:5,23 seem to affirm that ongoing justification, leading to ultimate justification (Ro 2), is by doing things you believe are correct.

I don't understand... but I do understand God is too good to earn by works, and that we are nothing, and it may be an issue of pride to think we'll be right and accepted only if we do good rather than receiving eternal life as a gift, so I do ask God to keep my pride from deceiving me into rejecting God as a gift because of being deluded into thinking I have to prove my (non-existent) goodness by doing good.

I must say GP,,,,I really enjoy your threads.

Can I help out here by stating the difference between a pay that is earned and a pay that is merited.
Most Christians have their mind set on an EARNED pay (salvation) as opposed to a MERITED pay.

Earned means that God tells us that we must earn our way to heaven.
We must do this, that and the other thing.
And I'm not speaking about the works of the Law here,,,which is a totally different topic.
I mean the GOOD WORKS/DEEDS that we're exhorted to do all throughout the NT by all the writers, including Jesus....gee.
So, IF we do these good works....God will pay us by allowing us through the pearly gate.
IOW,,,,we have to EARN our salvation.

Merit means something totally different.
If we merit something, it means we did it happily and of our own FREE WILL....
We did the good works/deeds because we wanted to because God, through our transformation, gives us the grace to do these good works.
So he REWARDS us with salvation. Salvation is ongoing and will not be complete until our life ends.
We were saved.....We are being saved....We will be saved.

If I call a gardener and tell him I need my lawn mowed...he'll tell me how much he wants...
I say OK....he cuts the grass....I pay him.
HE EARNED HIS PAY.

If my son goes out on a Saturday morning and wants to help me by cutting the grass
and he does so....I may want to give him some spending money...or take him to a game...
or who knows what else.
HE MERITED HIS PAY.

Christians will do good deeds and they will MERIT the reward...
they will not have EARNED it.
We cannot earn heaven....just as I believe you've stated in the OP.

 

[GracePeace]

I must say GP,,,,I really enjoy your threads.

Can I help out here by stating the difference between a pay that is earned and a pay that is merited.
Most Christians have their mind set on an EARNED pay (salvation) as opposed to a MERITED pay.

Earned means that God tells us that we must earn our way to heaven.
We must do this, that and the other thing.
And I'm not speaking about the works of the Law here,,,which is a totally different topic.
I mean the GOOD WORKS/DEEDS that we're exhorted to do all throughout the NT by all the writers, including Jesus....gee.
So, IF we do these good works....God will pay us by allowing us through the pearly gate.
IOW,,,,we have to EARN our salvation.

Merit means something totally different.
If we merit something, it means we did it happily and of our own FREE WILL....
We did the good works/deeds because we wanted to because God, through our transformation, gives us the grace to do these good works.
So he REWARDS us with salvation. Salvation is ongoing and will not be complete until our life ends.
We were saved.....We are being saved....We will be saved.

If I call a gardener and tell him I need my lawn mowed...he'll tell me how much he wants...
I say OK....he cuts the grass....I pay him.
HE EARNED HIS PAY.

If my son goes out on a Saturday morning and wants to help me by cutting the grass
and he does so....I may want to give him some spending money...or take him to a game...
or who knows what else.
HE MERITED HIS PAY.

Christians will do good deeds and they will MERIT the reward...
they will not have EARNED it.
We cannot earn heaven....just as I believe you've stated in the OP.

I don't know if I agree with this distinction (because in either case your getting the reward depends on your actions), but I'm glad you mentioned "free will", because I believe this was a key thing God has told me in past times.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't know if I agree with this distinction (because in either case your getting the reward depends on your actions), but I'm glad you mentioned "free will", because I believe this was a key thing God has told me in past times.

Theologically there is a distinction...
but you don't have to agree.
We make our statements from what we've learned/studied and anyone could take or leave our statement.

Are YOU going to get a reward? (heaven).
Based on what?

As to free will....
Free will can easily be shown to be in scripture.
But some prefer to believe that God programmed our every move....
Their choice.

 

[Scott Downey]

Read Romans 2 in sequence of Romans 1, Romans 2 describes all types of people, Gentile and Jew, saved and unsaved
It is not just about saved Gentiles now is it!

Romans 2
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your [a]impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the [c]Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

 

[Scott Downey]

All saved people bear Good fruit, or they are not 'the saved'. It is a defining characteristic of them that are saved, good fruit born to God who worked them in His field the world.

Jesus speaking in Mathew 7, and it's very clear!

You Will Know Them by Their Fruits​

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

 

[Scott Downey]

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

 

[Scott Downey]

It really is a mistake to think knowing God can be earned, though I'm not 100% certain how that "squares" with Romans 2, which says only "doers of the Law" will be justified and repaid eternal life when God judges the secrets of men's hearts by Christ (Ro 2:6-16,26,27).

I can't deny that eternal life can't be earned, but I also can't deny eternal life will be repaid only doers of the Law.

The same seems to be said in Revelation 2, 3 ("To the one who conquers...").
James seems to say the same.

Yet, still, God, knowing God, is too good to be earned by what we do--no amount of good works, even good works done by the power of the Spirit of Grace through faith, what would be considered "obedience", can pay for the sins we commit that separate us from God (Is 59:1), only Christ's sacrifice is meritorious enough and can pay that debt and restore us to God.

Yet Romans 14:5,23 seem to affirm that ongoing justification, leading to ultimate justification (Ro 2), is by doing things you believe are correct.

I don't understand... but I do understand God is too good to earn by works, and that we are nothing, and it may be an issue of pride to think we'll be right and accepted only if we do good rather than receiving eternal life as a gift, so I do ask God to keep my pride from deceiving me into rejecting God as a gift because of being deluded into thinking I have to prove my (non-existent) goodness by doing good.

Those God has born again, they will bear good fruit, in fact they did bear good fruit, they made a good confession of faith,
The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He has sent, and they did, so they bore good fruit to God's working within them.

God is not fooled though, the Lord knows those who are His. And those who are not are liars. And they dont bear the good fruit. Bad trees cannot bear good fruit, they only bear bad fruit. Jesus asked Whom do men say that I AM?

Jesus warned of those who will follow false Christs. He said beware, I have warned you beforehand, so it is dangerous.

 

[GracePeace]

Theologically there is a distinction...

I understand that is the view you hold to.

but you don't have to agree.

I am not sure I would for the reason I shared.

We make our statements from what we've learned/studied and anyone could take or leave our statement.

Your view is the basic Catholic view.

Are YOU going to get a reward? (heaven).
Based on what?

I really don't understand the matter.

As to free will....
Free will can easily be shown to be in scripture.

I didn't mean "I think free will exists". but that "it seems God wants us to freely choose to do things that please God--NOT do things that please God because He is threatening us".

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand that is the view you hold to.

I am not sure I would for the reason I shared.

Your view is the basic Catholic view.

I'm sure you will MERIT heaven.
But I'm sure you have not EARNED it.

It might be Catholic but it's right.
Catholics got some things right I guess.

I really don't understand the matter.

I forget the matter so I won't reply.

I didn't mean "I think free will exists". but that "it seems God wants us to freely choose to do things that please God--NOT do things that please God because He is threatening us".

Of course God wants us to freely choose to do things that please Him...
this is why we have free will.