Should sin triumph over grace in the end?

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ProDeo

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No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
True that.

But....

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Does verse 21 mean that (in the end) every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit?
 

Ritajanice

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True that.

But....

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Does verse 21 mean that (in the end) every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord by the Holy Spirit?
You can’t confess Jesus is Lord, not until after the rebirth,the the Holy Spirit witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit, once we become Born Of The Spirit, then we can confess it..
No good posting scripture, which means nothing, unless one knows the Spirit of God in their heart/ spirit.

You must know God by His Living Witness the Holy Spirit, we serve a Living God, we don’t serve scripture...

To even begin to understand scripture in our spirit, we must be Born Again of imperishable seed.

The seed of God remains in us once were Born Again, he grows and matures our spirit, we grow and mature in him, the Bible confirms this, the Bible is not the Living word.the Bible confirms what the Spirit witnesses to our heart....the Living Holy Spirit, Gods Witness to Gods truth.

Never listen to anyone other than the Holy Spirit...plenty of false prophets out there, who have made themselves self appointed prophets,

Anyone can post scripture, we need divine heart revelation to start to understand scripture, even then, we have to wait on the Spirit to lead us through the word and bring it to our understanding .

I have no idea who God will draw to Jesus and birth them by divine heart revelation, only he knows who are going to be with him in his Kingdom.we certainly don’t.
 
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ProDeo

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You can’t confess Jesus is Lord, not until after the rebirth,the the Holy Spirit witnesses that truth to our heart/ spirit, once we become Born Of The Spirit, then we can confess it..
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, that's what Filipp 2:11 is saying.

And obviously Paul is speaking about afterlife.
 

Ritajanice

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Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Well, that's what Filipp 2:11 is saying.

And obviously Paul is speaking about afterlife.
Dont agree, that’s your own interpretation of said scripture.

I posted mine above.

We confess Jesus is Lord @ProDeo ..by the power that is within us, only the Born Again can confess that Jesus is Lord, as I explained further up.

Our spirit must be birthed by the Holy Spirit, in this century.by supernatural, divine, heart revelation , don’t limit God to one’s own understanding..it’s an insult to the power of God.

Our spirit is birthed, the Bible can’t birth your spirit, it can help you understand the rebirth only.once our spirit has been Born Again of imperishable seed...the seed is Alive and Active in us, he is the Living Holy Spirit, he is the Living messenger.

The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.

Romans 8:29 meaning.

Here in Romans 8:29 Paul is saying that God has predetermined the destiny or the future of each believer, a glorious future in which he or she will be like Christ, conformed to the image of His Son!

Romans 8​

King James Version​

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his
.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together
.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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ProDeo

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Dont agree, that’s your own interpretation of said scripture.

Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Is Paul speaking about the afterlife or not ?
 
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Ritajanice

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Filipp 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
Filipp 2:10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Filipp 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Is Paul speaking about the afterlife or not ?
Read my post , I answered and well explained what that scripture you posted is saying.

We also worship God in spirit and truth on the earth today, @ProDeo ...those who have been Born Of The Spirit.how are we able to worship God on the earth today?

Are you Born Again of imperishable seed?..do you know God in your heart/ spirit?

Only the Holy Spirit can witness to your heart/ spirit ,that one is Born Again, scripture doesn’t have that power to do so, it just confirms how the rebirth is done, by divine heart revelation.
If you aren’t, that’s probably why we aren’t understanding each other.

We must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God, do you think that happens in the afterlife @ProDeo ?..or on the earth today?
 
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MatthewG

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Hello Original Poster,

Sin in my view is done with. If a person wants live a life of sin here reaping what’s here by that method. They may do so. If the desire to reap to the spirit which in the end will matter the most: they may do so. It’s all a choice; just as it is a choice to reject God, and reject Jesus Christ even in the afterlife. That’s why in Revelation it’s explained of a kingdom of those going within, and those standing out without. I believe Yahavah calls to them; but they simply may just not be ready; to go through the fire; like people who go through the fire now; which burns away the darkness from one’s heart by; the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit and fire. Sin is done with by the work of Jesus; what one does with this knowledge again is on their shoulders. Quite the heavy weight.
 

ProDeo

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I was born again in 1974 by the grace of God who baptized me in His love and holiness, there are no words to describe, it was impossible (so it felt) to say no and I turned 180 degrees instantly. I am not into universalism although I don't exclude the possibility there will be second chances in afterlife and Filipp 2:9-11 is one of those passages that might (emphasis added) hint to that.

Needless to say I am so thankful the Lord touched me and that I don't need universalism at all as a free card to sin because once you received the indwelling Holy Spirit (per John 16:8) you don't want to sin any longer.
 

Ritajanice

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A Born Again does not sin because they have been Born of God, they can’t go on sinning because his seed remains in then.

His Living seed that is, the Holy Spirit who is Alive and Active in our heart/ spirit?

A Born Again does not use any card to sin, that’s because many don’t understand what it means to be Born Again of imperishable seed.

Plus we can’t choose to be Born Again , as we were chosen and predestined to become children of God.

The Spirit births our spirit, that is not by choice and nowhere in Gods word does it say, I chose to become Born of imperishable seed..Spirit gives birth to spirit.we have no say in the matter, just like you had no say in your flesh birth.

Neither does God say we are touched or enlightened, he says we are Born Of God and his seed remains in us..don’t add your own words to the word of God, it makes no sense.

1 John 3​

King James Version​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
 
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St. SteVen

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It sounds similar to the Orthodox concept - purgation rather than purgatory. The people are cleansed by fire, but it isn't a place, it is just the consequence of the presence of God.
Yes, exactly.
The doctrine of Universalism actually came from the east through Orthodoxy. Purgatory is from the west/Catholicism.
So that is the right connection. ("purgation rather than purgatory") A cleansing fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

[
 

Ritajanice

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Yes, exactly.
The doctrine of Universalism actually came from the east through Orthodoxy. Purgatory is from the west/Catholicism.
So that is the right connection. ("purgation rather than purgatory") A cleansing fire.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

[
Whose at work in us, refining us?

One should know in their spirit that the Spirit is working in their hearts..it comes by divine heart revelation.

A Born Again does a lot of suffering through refining, Praise God for that.

Isaiah 48:10shares how God refines us: "I have refined you, but not as silver is refined. Rather, I have refined you in the furnace of suffering."
 
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MatthewG

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Hello to the Original Poster,

While I’m not a believer in universalism; and believe there is only one way to the Father (through his Word: Jesus.) Everyone has been saved, from death, Satan, hell, and from sin. But not everyone is saved to entering into Yahavahs Kingdom. Did you know that? It’s a choice in the afterlife. It’s also a choice now in this life. (What does one truly desire in their heart? To be with God, or to not be with God, some only worship God for selfish reasons and motives.) While you may believe in universalism’s it cuts out the destinations of what Yahavah has established. Outside or inside.
 

St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
Yes, I believe everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.
Already saved?
This is hard to wrap one's head around. We are so used to tying salvation to something we do. (receive)
But the reality is that only God can save. Jesus paid the death penalty for the sin of all humankind on the cross.
It was a complete work. This is why I say that everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.

Some realize/are born again in this lifetime. The rest will realize it in the afterlife. The Age of Restoration.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead),
will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by
the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do you mean the whole world will become Born Again?

It’s because of the completed work of Christ on the cross that we can become Born Again, if you are saved, then you must know that you are Born Again.
All of humankind. But it won't happen here. IMHO

You can’t be saved from eternal damnation, just by believing the cross ,for a start ,no one can believe that the cross happened, not until one is Born of The Spirit, then you have the Spirit witnessing that truth to your heart/spirit..

You need divine heart revelation to know that Jesus died on that cross, only the Spirit can witness that like I explained.
What I am saying is that salvation is not about us. It never was.
What we call salvation is a renewed relationship with God. (from my POV)

Without being Born Of The Spirit, you can only believe in one’s own spirit, sadly, there is no power in one’s own belief/spirit..there is only power in the Spirit, Gods word says, no one can call Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the only one who can witness that truth to your heart/spirit.
I agree. In the afterlife EVERYONE will call Jesus Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Only a Born Again can see and hear through the Spirit..,that’s what happens when we become Born Again our spirit becomes sensitive to the Holy Spirit...we are Spirit led.

Without being Born Of The Spirit, one will never hear or see , we would still be in darkness...when we’re birthed, were birthed into the Spirit of God, that can only come by divine heart revelation , which is Alive and Active the spirit birth.
I agree.
Universalism recognizes the need for even those who have never heard to respond.
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus.

[
 

Ritajanice

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Are you into sinless perfection ?
Are you understanding the word of God?

I live in my old man of sin @ProDeo ...I’m in the new man, my sins were forgiven past, present, future, the evening I became Born Again, so how can I live in sinless perfection?

I am right before God, ..now I am Born Of God His seed remains in me, and that is why I sin no more.

He doesn’t say we were touched, he doesn’t say we were enlightened, he says we were Born Of God.

His seed remains in us, which means what?

I go by the word of God, your word doesn’t count, he said a Born Again does not sin because they have been Born Of God, His seed remains in them, are you denying the word of God here?

1 John 3​

King James Version​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
 
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Ritajanice

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St. SteVen said:
Yes, I believe everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.

This is hard to wrap one's head around. We are so used to tying salvation to something we do. (receive)
But the reality is that only God can save. Jesus paid the death penalty for the sin of all humankind on the cross.
It was a complete work. This is why I say that everyone is already saved due to the complete work of Christ on the cross.

Some realize/are born again in this lifetime. The rest will realize it in the afterlife. The Age of Restoration.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead),
will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by
the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


All of humankind. But it won't happen here. IMHO


What I am saying is that salvation is not about us. It never was.
What we call salvation is a renewed relationship with God. (from my POV)


I agree. In the afterlife EVERYONE will call Jesus Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.


I agree.
Universalism recognizes the need for even those who have never heard to respond.
Countless billions have gone into the afterlife with no knowledge of Jesus.

[
Just remember this is your own opinion of scripture, that all will be Born Again, makes absolutely no sense to me Brother, but, that doesn’t mean that my opinion/ belief of Gods word over rides yours.

It just means that I don’t agree with the above post and thank God you and I always disagree respectfully...no forcing belief/ opinions onto one another, ..that is most definitely not of God.

So my friend, I agree to disagree.
 
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St. SteVen

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Just remember this is your own opinion of scripture, that all will be Born Again, makes absolutely no sense to me Brother, but, that doesn’t mean that my opinion/ belief of Gods word over rides yours.
I basically agree that this is my own opinion. But remember, I didn't make this up.
Universalism is a doctrine of the early church. Apocatastasis. (See topics)

Honestly, it made no sense to me either when I first heard about it.
In fact I brought all the ugly apologetics that support the hell doctrine to challenge it.
But two precious brothers helped me to work through a process to understand it better.

Surprisingly, after a little bit of research, I began to see the holes in the Damnationist position.
I was even arguing on the side of UR. ??? Say what?

It just means that I don’t agree with the above post and thank God you and I always disagree respectfully...no forcing belief/ opinions onto one another, ..that is most definitely not of God.
Much appreciated. Hopefully others will follow your godly example. Thanks.

So my friend, I agree to disagree.
Perfect. Thanks for asking such great questions and hearing me out.
I only want people to understand what Universalism is. There is so much ignorance on the subject.
What people do with that information is up to them. I only ask that they hear me out.

[
 

Ritajanice

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I basically agree that this is my own opinion. But remember, I didn't make this up.
Universalism is a doctrine of the early church. Apocatastasis. (See topics)

Honestly, it made no sense to me either when I first heard about it.
In fact I brought all the ugly apologetics that support the hell doctrine to challenge it.
But two precious brothers helped me to work through a process to understand it better.

Surprisingly, after a little bit of research, I began to see the holes in the Damnationist position.
I was even arguing on the side of UR. ??? Say what?


Much appreciated. Hopefully others will follow your godly example. Thanks.


Perfect. Thanks for asking such great questions and hearing me out.
I only want people to understand what Universalism is. There is so much ignorance on the subject.
What people do with that information is up to them. I only ask that they hear me out.

[
I admire you, because you post what you believe the word of God to be saying, no one can get in your way of doing that either, I’m led exactly the same way that you are.

If it’s Gods will that we post what we post, it can’t be stopped.....keep posting what you believe the Spirit is leading you to post, I do the same...God has imo told me to take some off ignore, to stand my ground in him...I’m doing it, he’s also showing me when to walk away...sometimes we can get caught up in the moment, I’m sure you know what I mean by saying that.LOL.