Jesus Followed Satan OR Satan Had Physical Power Over Jesus?

[Wrangler]

In Luke 4:5 and 9 it reads, depending on the translation, that the Devil took Jesus up or led Jesus. If the devil led Jesus to a high place, it means Jesus followed the devil.

If the devil had physical power over Jesus, why didn't he throw Jesus to his death? And why don't demons exercise physical power over people on a regular basis?

My study notes do not offer an explanation. Thoughts?

 

[Bob]

Thank you for your (novel) question.

Here is an alternative perspective: the devil told Jesus he had some interesting things to show Him, and invited Jesus to accompany him here and there. Having no fear of the devil, Jesus ”challenged” him to offer his various temptations.

(No justification on my part; only speculation based on what we know of His character.)

Perhaps focusing on how the devil tempted Jesus is not the main point, so we need not be concerned with it.

(A favorite quote from Paster Begg: in scripture, mostly, the main things are the plain things, and the plain things are the main things.)

Peace and blessings.

 

[face2face]

In Luke 4:6 and 9 it reads, depending on the translation, that the Devil took Jesus up or led Jesus. If the devil led Jesus to a high place, it means Jesus followed the devil.

If the devil had physical power over Jesus, why didn't he throw Jesus to his death? And why don't demons exercise physical power over people on a regular basis?

My study notes do not offer an explanation. Thoughts?

Wrangler, we are going to butt heads on this one.

Do you appreciate how much non Biblical content you are reading into this Scripture to even arrive at your inference?

Was it literal?

Matthew 4:8 has “exceeding high”. Ezekiel (son of man) saw the glory of God’s temple from one of these Ezek 40:2. Nb. He saw this vision on the very day they took the Passover lamb – suffering first!

Three possibilities as to the Adversary

1. Christ's own mind (delirious after fasting)
2. High Priest or representatives offering the Kingdoms of this World!
3. A supernatural fallen angel

If you believe in point 3 I would like you to show me in all the Gospels where Christ comes into contact with this being after Luke 4.

Provide an interaction

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler - what's interesting about the adversary's offer which doesn't align with your interpretation is "the Kingdoms of this world"

Jesus was offered rulership over the “people of this arrangement”, in other words the tempter offered Christ to rule over a sin ridden world which strongly relates to point 2!

Notice how it states in a "moment of time" word “stigme” = “point of time” i.e. “but a pin prick of time”. Matt 4:8 adds “… and
the glory of them”.

He was being shown the transient glory of the kindgoms of man 1 Jhn 2:17.

Can you see the context? Wrangler?

The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. 1 John 2:17

Nothing at all about a fallen angel!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Once you understand the nature of Christ and his temptations you are presented with the reality of two possible scenarios. The first is Jesus grappling with his own mind having not eaten for forty day or a person was presenting these ideas to him.

My belief is he suffered both throughout his ministry but never encountered a fallen divine angel.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Do you appreciate how much non Biblical content you are reading into this Scripture to even arrive at your inference?

Was it literal?

Yes, the text is literal. Why do you question it being literal?

 

[Wrangler]

Ezek 40:2. Nb. He saw this vision

Nothing in the Luke 4 text suggests a vision. Are you reading into the text?

 

[face2face]

Nothing in the Luke 4 text suggests a vision. Are you reading into the text?

Nothing in the text suggest its literal, are you reading into the text?

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler see?

I could argue you are reading significantly more into the text than one understanding which suggests this is all happening in Christs mind.

Also its noted you cannot show another occurrence of Christ and your fallen angel in the Gospel record.

Points 1&2 have Scriptural evidence but point 3 has none

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Nothing in the text suggest its literal, are you reading into the text?

LOL

 

[face2face]

LOL

In other words you have no response? I could have laughed at your reply, could I not?

 

[face2face]

LOL

I'll assume for the moment you have no credible arguments and press forward with Scriptural support.

Why was Jesus led by the Spirit into the Wilderness?

What was God doing with His Son?

Provide evidence please

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

In other words you have no response? I could have laughed at your reply, could I not?

The Gospel of Luke is a carefully studied work of historical fact. It may quote Christ’s figurative statements but not in Chapter 4.

 

[face2face]

The Gospel of Luke is a carefully studied work of historical fact. It may quote Christ’s figurative statements but not in Chapter 4.

Evidence

 

[face2face]

@Wrangler, #12 is crucial for several reasons. First, if you don't grasp why Christ was led into the wilderness by the Spirit, it's likely that your foundation and context are off from the beginning. Introducing the concept of a fallen angel would be irrelevant in this context. Additionally, if you don't understand the Old Testament foundation underlying this passage, you're at risk of forming ideas that aren't grounded in the inspired context.

You would need to open your mind to the work of God in Christ before you make these false assumptions

F2F

 

[face2face]

Everyone else,

There is an obvious hint in Luke 4 which reveals why Christ was driven by the Spirit into the Wilderness.

It's the key which opens the entire record.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Evidence

I already provided it. Did you ever read Luke? Chapter 1:1-4 are the verses you seek IF evidence is dispositional.

By contrast, you assert ch 4 is figurative with no evidence.

 

[APAK]

Once you understand the nature of Christ and his temptations you are presented with the reality of two possible scenarios. The first is Jesus grappling with his own mind having not eaten for forty day or a person was presenting these ideas to him.

My belief is he suffered both throughout his ministry but never encountered a fallen divine angel.

F2F

And then it also reveals who/what is really the devil (in/around people)

 

[face2face]

And then it also reveals who/what is really the devil (in/around people)

Thanks for chiming in, Apak!

This subject isn't as straightforward as those who believe in a fallen evil angel might make it seem.

From my experience, directly confronting this belief rarely leads to understanding. Instead, a better approach is to encourage them to explore the context and the reasons behind the Spirit leading Christ into the wilderness....this can be a good starting point for discussion.

It's clear that many today don't read the Word with enough care to truly discern its context and apply it properly in their interpretation.

@Wrangler

First key

Israel was “led” by the spirit as a test of sonship

2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the wilderness these forty years, to humble and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. Deut 8:2,5

The test was now repeated on an individual basis

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. Hos 11:1

15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matt 2:15

No supernatural being at all in Deuteronomy

Context to Luke 4 is "if you be the Son of God"

Will Christ remain in Egypt or come out?
Will Christ reject the promptings of his flesh or lay it down?
We are “sons of God” IF we are “led of the spirit” Rom 8:14 (chapter only references flesh and spirit)

Wrangler, Mark's account mentions another clue for you “wild beasts” 1:13 - “spirit is willing, flesh is weak”

What will win - Flesh or Spirit

You have no context for a fallen angel because the focus is on Christ, his nature and whether he will obey the commands, or give in to his starving flesh!

Be good for you to come back with something as equally convincing about you fallen angel theory!

F2F

 

[face2face]

If God is testing His Son in Luke Chapter 4 which we know He is...What did Israel do to God?

“Do not harden your hearts as you did at Meribah,as you did that day at Massah in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested me; they tried me, though they had seen what I did. Psalm 95:8-9

@Wrangler can you see the true context of Luke Chapter 4, and if so is your mind opened to understand the principles being taught?

F2F