Does the Bible contradict itself? - Reader Poll (and discussion)

[Lambano]

I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unfounded biblically. Law is law. Black and white. Obey, or disobey.
I know it is used in human society, but it is not a biblical idea. IMHO

[

I wouldn't say that. Instead, I would ask, "What behaviors and attitudes is Torah trying to promote or discourage? How do the principles expressed in Torah apply in real life situations?"

This is why I think the Pharisees got a bad rap.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello @Original Poster,

I do not believe the bible in anyway contradicts itself, when intuned with the Holy Spirit/Spirit of Christ. What does contradict itself, is interperting it by the means of the flesh and not the spiritual. While material things happen within the contents of the bible, concerning the destruction, the onslaughts, and things of that nature are part of the fleshly nature... their is a spiritual aspect too, that must be considered in all of the original ways. Who, What, When, Why, and How. It's paradoxical sometimes, for sure.

 

[St. SteVen]

That "black and white" view could paint Jesus as a lawbreaker.

I prefer "law deconstructor".

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I just noticed that the poll got zero votes. - LOL

 

[BarneyFife]

Yes.
A consideration of the truth of the matter is terrifying to those who have put their hope in a leather-bound book of paper and ink.

The questions I ask and the conclusions I make are deeply offensive. The truth hurts sometimes. And I pay for my irreverent insolence.

I'm a whistle-blower.

[

Your reference to Mrs. White seems oddly combative.

In fact, your entire, frankly, mocking demeanor throughout this thread is strangely unfamiliar to me, My Friend.

I'm appealing to your sense of charity per Romans 14:1 and you appear to be appealing to a claim of martyrdom/victimhood.

I am not in the least bit fearful for my own sake by the practice and influence of higher/historical criticism.

But I know what it can do to the uninitiated. I have seen it do its work many times and I'm quite sure it has caused more shipwreck of faith than has the abuse of legalists.

The Bible says that those who reject the Word are to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh. This is a jarring illustration of what is actually a redemptive process.

But the vast majority of those who deny the power and authority of the written Word have nowhere to go but into the arms of skeptics who will lead them further into doubt and, eventually, beyond redemption.

And we who as yet have not the privilege of direct revelation, or do not, or do not yet subscribe to UR perceive no safety net for such perils; the only element of faith we can perceive is that which we can only trust in the experience and interpretation of those with whom we cannot conscientiously agree.

Meanwhile, all of this concern is denounced as base dishonesty.

I suppose this kind of showdown between us was inevitable. It is nevertheless very painful.

:)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's what I meant in mentioning resetting of the scoreboard being well attested in the OT.

Hebrews answers this question.

the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin.

they point to Jesus, once again, the schoolmaster

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is keeping the Law (Pharisaic formalism) and there is keeping the Law (in spirit). Jesus did the latter (and got chastised by the Pharisees for doing it). What do we say about Luke 1:6 then? That it is speaking of the former?

Jesus kept the law period. He never broke one command.

He did not keep it in spirit. He also kept the letter.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the "spirit of the law" idea is unfounded biblically. Law is law. Black and white. Obey, or disobey.
I know it is used in human society, but it is not a biblical idea. IMHO

[

Paul says explicitly that the law itself is spiritual (Romans 7:14), and the law that he says is spiritual is the one that says "Thou shalt not covet" (Romans 7:7).

:)

 

[St. SteVen]

Paul says explicitly that the law itself is spiritual (Romans 7:14), and the law that he says is spiritual is the one that says "Thou shalt not covet" (Romans 7:7).

I think the erroneous (imho) "the spirit of the law" is taken from this scripture below.
But it is comparing the letter of the law to the Spirit, not to "the spirit of the law".

2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[

 

[Lambano]

Then you have the Romans 3 conundrum....

Tell us more.

The Romans 3 conundrum is this: Romans (big picture) is about forming a community of Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ. Although Torah prescribes sacrifices for sin, Paul states that Torah doesn't give Jews an advantage over Goyim:

What then? Are we better than they? Not at for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin... (Romans 3:9)

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under Torah so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of Torah no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through Torah comes the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:19-20)

So, what good did wasting all those bulls and sheep (a work of Torah) do? God's people are still subject to the power of Sin, they are still accountable to God for the works done in the body, and they are still not right before God.

And for that matter, why does Paul metaphorically relate Christ's sacrifice to an "hilasterion" (either a propitiatory sacrifice or that fancy cover on the Ark of the Covenant) in verse 25 if the Yom Kippur sacrifice on which it’s modeled had no real meaning? Forms and Shadows...

Well, this thread is about contradictions...

 

[RedFan]

Jesus kept the law period. He never broke one command.

He did not keep it in spirit. He also kept the letter.

There would have been be no plucking grain on the Sabbath (Matt. 12:1-2) if that were true.

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the erroneous (imho) "the spirit of the law" is taken from this scripture below.
But it is comparing the letter of the law to the Spirit, not to "the spirit of the law".

2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[

In what way then, in your opinion, is the ten commandment law spiritual?

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

I think the erroneous (imho) "the spirit of the law" is taken from this scripture below.
But it is comparing the letter of the law to the Spirit, not to "the spirit of the law".

2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—
not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[

I don't think it's accurate or, at least, adequate to restrict the widely orthodox concept of "the spirit of the law" to one verse.

Practically the entirety of the Sermon On The Mount addresses it.

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

I just noticed that the poll got zero votes. - LOL

View attachment 52300

The poll and the answer options both overcomplicates AND oversimplifies a problem.

How's that for a paradox?

 

[Wick Stick]

So you’re saying no jew could be saved?

No... I don't know how you got that out of what I said.

 

[BarneyFife]

Jesus kept the law period. He never broke one command.

He did not keep it in spirit. He also kept the letter.

Well, then, He at least encouraged others to break it in letter:

Luke 14:2-6 — And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? And they could not answer him again to these things.

:)

 

[BarneyFife]

No... I don't know how you got that out of what I said.

That's what we do here.

We interpret and then equivocate, ascribe motive and values.

It's all in good fun.

Well, except that it makes people mad and divided.

:)

 

[St. SteVen]

In what way then, in your opinion, is the ten commandment law spiritual?

I don't think that verse is limited to the TCs. I think it refers to the WHOLE law, the 613.
And saying that it is spiritual does not mean it is desirable. IMHO
Paul says the opposite about himself. He is unspiritual. In what way is he unspiritual?

Romans 7:14 NIV
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't think it's accurate or, at least, adequate to restrict the widely orthodox concept of "the spirit of the law" to one verse.

Practically the entirety of the Sermon On The Mount addresses it.

My point is that the term "the spirit of the law" is not to be found in the Bible.
Correct me if I am wrong.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

The poll and the answer options both overcomplicates AND oversimplifies a problem.

How's that for a paradox?

LOL
So true.
I'm such a trouble maker.

[