A bit about gender and sex.

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Skovand

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With sex and gender the majority of people, myself included, automatically sees it through the eyes of cisnormativity since we are all heavily influenced by our binary concept of them. It’s especially common in American conservative Christianity where it’s clung to ignorantly and arrogantly. But that’s not the case with the whole world. In Thebes an ancient Egyptian writing mentions tai (male), sḫt ("sekhet") and hmt (female) as three three different genders. In the Philippines they commonly see at least three genders such as the ladyboy. Ancient Greece had Hermaphrodites, the Gala of Ancient Greece and numerous indigenous tribes had the two spirit. All of these nowadays are thought of as intersex and/or trans people. Even in the Bible Jesus mentions this third group of people, though it’s often translated merely as eunuch.

Matthew 19:12NRSVue
12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Many of us understand about castration of a man making them a typical eunuch, but that can’t apply to those born since birth. That means at birth some were born with genitalia that was not normal. It was not the anatomy of antypical boy or of a typical girl. Some scholars even think this may refer to some who as they grew up acted ways not conforming to gender norms. So we can tell at the very least those born with different genitalia were intersex and as its broadest use possibly transgendered. This is not strange for ancient Jews since well before Christ was even born by several hundred years the Mishnah mentions the tumtum sex which meant hidden. Ancient Jewish people actually six sexes mentioned in their literature. Besides them and male and female there were androgynos, ay’lonit and saris. So Jesus would be well aware of the two opposite sides of the humanity and everything in between.

Again we know that intersex people exist because we have physical proof. They often have sexual organs that are in between typical organs. With some intersex people, and some people who are not intersex, we see people with chromosomes that are not typical. We see men and women with xXY and men with XXXY. Some women also have XXX or just simply X. Some men also have XXY and XXYY. So you will notice that genetically, we have far more than just XX and XY. So if we have men and women with ambiguous or unusual genitalia and men and women with different types of chromosome pairing , including some women with XXY that can get pregnant and men with XXY than can get women pregnant it’s not much of a leap to consider that perhaps some men feel more like women and some women feel more like men even if their outward appearance seems typical.

For a fact we see some scientific evidence for this. We see in this science daily article citations for genetic variation in transgendered people.
Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender You can look up tons of studies on scientific research into gender.

So now that we past some of the theological and scientific aspects of this we can look at the social aspects of why recognizing transgender people exist. One of the biggest concerns we see with trans people is that they often suffer from violence. The violent actions of others who bully and attack them for being different to self harm and even suicide. For a fact around 40% of trans people attempt suicide and about every 45 seconds somewhere in the world a trans teen or young adult kills themself successfully. The reason why they kill themselves is because of the cruelty they face at the hand of others. Cruelty that comes from people who are often religious , such as other Christians in America, who deny the science surrounding this issue.

There are a lot of other things such as biblical studies into the various gendered variations of god in the Bible or masculine vs feminine gendered roots to the various names of god and so on. I think for these forums, what I’ve already posted is much more than the majority are aware of or willing to accept but as a Christian im simply glad to shed light on this abuse often directed towards my trans brothers and sisters in Christ. Plus I’m copy and pasting this to several other sites. So no time lost.

You can find numerous books by biblical scholars who affirm the validity of this subject.
 

Windmill Charge

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For a fact around 40% of trans people attempt suicide and about every 45 seconds somewhere in the world a trans teen or young adult kills themself successfully. The reason why they kill themselves is because of the cruelty they face at the hand of others. Cruelty that comes from people who are often religious , such as other Christians in America, who deny the science surrounding this issue.
Yes there is an alarmingly higher rate of suicide and self harm among lgtb teenagers as this study shows

What you do not include is the reported rate of suicide among lgtb couples in self affirming countries like Sweden. See Suicide in married couples in Sweden: Is the risk greater in same-sex couples? - European Journal of Epidemiology


Do you have evidence that Christian as opposed to white Americans actually attack lgtb?
 

Skovand

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Yes there is an alarmingly higher rate of suicide and self harm among lgtb teenagers as this study shows

What you do not include is the reported rate of suicide among lgtb couples in self affirming countries like Sweden. See Suicide in married couples in Sweden: Is the risk greater in same-sex couples? - European Journal of Epidemiology


Do you have evidence that Christian as opposed to white Americans actually attack lgtb?
I did not see the point in including gay couples in a discussion about gender. It’s separate issues. Homosexuality and being lesbian is about sexual orientation and being cis gender vs trans gender is about gender. Intersex is not about being trans or gay, but is highlighted to show that the binary system does not work for sexual genitalia, for chromosomes, for social roles or chemical and hormonal levels.

Are you asking me for proof that Christians are anti lgbt in general instead of it just being white people? You are aware I never once said this is a white issue right? America , and even the UK are not white nations but multiracial nations headed towards greater racial diversity. In America, conservatives in general are mostly white, but there are lots of Hispanics and blacks as well who are conservative. In America most people are still white. All the other races combined are less than how many white people there is. In the Middle East it’s dominated by Islam and muslims are not often considered white. White nowadays predominantly means of European descent with white skin. Always going to be outliers but most of us knows what it means. The Middle East is also extremely oppressive towards transgender people. In Africa which is predominantly black and dominated by conservative Christianity and conservative Islam is also very anti trans. So that’s how we know this is not an issue with racial breakdowns but an issue of ideologies and most other of these ideologies seem to be have one thing in common. A literalist approach to their scriptures which routinely places science from thousands of years ago above modern science and that backwards thinking also tends to displace reality with their conservative approach to scriptures. In America, it’s that same ideal that is anti trans. They say….. god made just man and woman……. And an assortment of other clobber verses which are used to justify their hatred towards the trans community and that hatred is recognized by the policies the party consistently promotes that are anti trans and from the mentality of its supporters who say it’s fake and etc…
 
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Windmill Charge

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I did not see the point in including gay couples in a discussion about gender. It’s separate issues. Homosexuality and being lesbian is about sexual orientation and being cis gender vs trans gender is about gender. Intersex is not about being trans or gay, but is highlighted to show that the binary system does not work for sexual genitalia, for chromosomes, for social roles or chemical and hormonal levels.

Are you asking me for proof that Christians are anti lgbt in general instead of it just being white people? You are aware I never once said this is a white issue right? America , and even the UK are not white nations but multiracial nations headed towards greater racial diversity. In America, conservatives in general are mostly white, but there are lots of Hispanics and blacks as well who are conservative. In America most people are still white. All the other races combined are less than how many white people there is. In the Middle East it’s dominated by Islam and muslims are not often considered white. White nowadays predominantly means of European descent with white skin. Always going to be outliers but most of us knows what it means. The Middle East is also extremely oppressive towards transgender people. In Africa which is predominantly black and dominated by conservative Christianity and conservative Islam is also very anti trans. So that’s how we know this is not an issue with racial breakdowns but an issue of ideologies and most other of these ideologies seem to be have one thing in common. A literalist approach to their scriptures which routinely places science from thousands of years ago above modern science and that backwards thinking also tends to displace reality with their conservative approach to scriptures. In America, it’s that same ideal that is anti trans. They say….. god made just man and woman……. And an assortment of other clobber verses which are used to justify their hatred towards the trans community and that hatred is recognized by the policies the party consistently promotes that are anti trans and from the mentality of its supporters who say it’s fake and etc…

There is strong evidence through various studies that lgtb have a far high rate of suicide, self harm, mental illness and generally poorer health.

Yes you are right that Christians are not automatically white and your response indicates that hostility towards lgtb is not purely a Christian issue.

I would still ask you for your evidence for Christian aggression towards lgtb.
 

Skovand

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There is strong evidence through various studies that lgtb have a far high rate of suicide, self harm, mental illness and generally poorer health.

Yes you are right that Christians are not automatically white and your response indicates that hostility towards lgtb is not purely a Christian issue.

I would still ask you for your evidence for Christian aggression towards lgtb.
Well you can start by checking the forums with the keywords related to this subject and what is being said. Additionally, since this very common thing is missed by you I’ll highlight this fact. Essentially every single anti LGBT law and regulation, and almost all of the push back comes from one group of anti trans people in America and it’s them Christian Conservative Party. The ones who are against trans people having surgeries is the Christian Conservative Party. The ones who are angry about which bathroom the trans people use is the conservative Christian party. Trump is a Christian. If you say you are a Christian you are a Christian even if you’re a very bad one. Trump and his party consistently indicates that trans people should not be in the military, that they should not be given gender appropriate licenses and in general, the conservative Christian party says that trans people do not exist. All of this is violence towards the trans community. All of this is oppression towards the trans community. When kids who are trans are sent to Christian camps to cure them of their “gender dysphoria” it’s violence. The operation created in America for the trans community leading to many more harming themselves is almost exclusively because of the societal harm the conservative Christians put on them. Churches weaponizing verses by pulling more info out of it than what is actually there by saying “god made Adam and Eve”/ “man and woman” not Adam and Evan who started calling himself Eve” and so on. That’s all violence towards the trans community.

If you want to know look up books by Christian trans authors, or trans affirming theologians and biblical scholars and see what they write about who persecutes them and tries to undermine them and it’s almost always the conservative Christian party. The Republican Party claims to be a Christian party made up mostly of Christians. Very few non Christians make up the conservative Christian party. Look up anti trans laws in America. You can easily find resources on this.
 

Windmill Charge

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All of this is violence towards the trans community.
You have a very strange definition of violence.

As a Christian just what is your source of authority? Is it the bible or the latest trend in society.
As you are well aware the bible does not support lgtb world view.

Yes there are groups whose treatment of those in the lgtb is very much sub Christian, but there is also ample scientific evidence, some of which I have already pointed you towards that shows lgtb is a choice, that it is not inherent but a result of influence upon the individual.
I accept that for many once having made their ' choice ' they do not want to change and attempt to force a change are both counter productive and can be called violence.

But you have not substanciated your claim that there is violence towards the lgtb community/individuals.
Violence is physical and aggressive verbal attacks upon a person or community and that is not happening in the west.
 

Skovand

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You have a very strange definition of violence.

As a Christian just what is your source of authority? Is it the bible or the latest trend in society.
As you are well aware the bible does not support lgtb world view.

Yes there are groups whose treatment of those in the lgtb is very much sub Christian, but there is also ample scientific evidence, some of which I have already pointed you towards that shows lgtb is a choice, that it is not inherent but a result of influence upon the individual.
I accept that for many once having made their ' choice ' they do not want to change and attempt to force a change are both counter productive and can be called violence.

But you have not substanciated your claim that there is violence towards the lgtb community/individuals.
Violence is physical and aggressive verbal attacks upon a person or community and that is not happening in the west.
Here is a good article that discusses some of the ways conservative Christians are carrying out violence towards trans people.


Here are some articles showcasing how are different ways that violence are carried out against various groups of people. This shows the many different faces of violence that some don’t even realize is violence.

This talks about many forms of violemfe including structural violence such as those actions set in place through systematic powers like those advocating for theocracy.
 

Behold

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With sex and gender the majority of people, myself included, automatically sees it through the eyes of cisnormativity since we are all heavily influenced by our binary concept of them. It’s especially common in American conservative Christianity where it’s clung to ignorantly and arrogantly. But that’s not the case with the whole world.

Real Christians are not going to agree with the False world view that just because you are born to be a male or female, you don't have to believe it.
 
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MA2444

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With sex and gender the majority of people, myself included, automatically sees it through the eyes of cisnormativity since we are all heavily influenced by our binary concept of them. It’s especially common in American conservative Christianity where it’s clung to ignorantly and arrogantly. But that’s not the case with the whole world. In Thebes an ancient Egyptian writing mentions tai (male), sḫt ("sekhet") and hmt (female) as three three different genders. In the Philippines they commonly see at least three genders such as the ladyboy. Ancient Greece had Hermaphrodites, the Gala of Ancient Greece and numerous indigenous tribes had the two spirit. All of these nowadays are thought of as intersex and/or trans people. Even in the Bible Jesus mentions this third group of people, though it’s often translated merely as eunuch.

Matthew 19:12NRSVue
12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let anyone accept this who can.”

Many of us understand about castration of a man making them a typical eunuch, but that can’t apply to those born since birth. That means at birth some were born with genitalia that was not normal. It was not the anatomy of antypical boy or of a typical girl. Some scholars even think this may refer to some who as they grew up acted ways not conforming to gender norms. So we can tell at the very least those born with different genitalia were intersex and as its broadest use possibly transgendered. This is not strange for ancient Jews since well before Christ was even born by several hundred years the Mishnah mentions the tumtum sex which meant hidden. Ancient Jewish people actually six sexes mentioned in their literature. Besides them and male and female there were androgynos, ay’lonit and saris. So Jesus would be well aware of the two opposite sides of the humanity and everything in between.

Again we know that intersex people exist because we have physical proof. They often have sexual organs that are in between typical organs. With some intersex people, and some people who are not intersex, we see people with chromosomes that are not typical. We see men and women with xXY and men with XXXY. Some women also have XXX or just simply X. Some men also have XXY and XXYY. So you will notice that genetically, we have far more than just XX and XY. So if we have men and women with ambiguous or unusual genitalia and men and women with different types of chromosome pairing , including some women with XXY that can get pregnant and men with XXY than can get women pregnant it’s not much of a leap to consider that perhaps some men feel more like women and some women feel more like men even if their outward appearance seems typical.

For a fact we see some scientific evidence for this. We see in this science daily article citations for genetic variation in transgendered people.
Gene variants provide insight into brain, body incongruence in transgender You can look up tons of studies on scientific research into gender.

So now that we past some of the theological and scientific aspects of this we can look at the social aspects of why recognizing transgender people exist. One of the biggest concerns we see with trans people is that they often suffer from violence. The violent actions of others who bully and attack them for being different to self harm and even suicide. For a fact around 40% of trans people attempt suicide and about every 45 seconds somewhere in the world a trans teen or young adult kills themself successfully. The reason why they kill themselves is because of the cruelty they face at the hand of others. Cruelty that comes from people who are often religious , such as other Christians in America, who deny the science surrounding this issue.

There are a lot of other things such as biblical studies into the various gendered variations of god in the Bible or masculine vs feminine gendered roots to the various names of god and so on. I think for these forums, what I’ve already posted is much more than the majority are aware of or willing to accept but as a Christian im simply glad to shed light on this abuse often directed towards my trans brothers and sisters in Christ. Plus I’m copy and pasting this to several other sites. So no time lost.

You can find numerous books by biblical scholars who affirm the validity of this subject.

So what's your point? That Christians should affirm the validity of that subject and trans people?

No thank you Brother, you can keep all that stuff if you want to if that was your point. I dont play the trans game or the pronouns game. I am not violent either. I dont go out attacking trans people. But if I ever run into one and they try to force me to play the pronoun game he will find himself picking himself up off the floor.

You might try to be able to justify the transformers with the scientific mumbo jumbo and Hermaphrodites and all that, but have you forgotten that we live in a corrupted world? So there's going to be some mutation within the species. But that doesnt make them valid or acceptable. Call a spade a spade brother!
 

MA2444

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Well you can start by checking the forums with the keywords related to this subject and what is being said. Additionally, since this very common thing is missed by you I’ll highlight this fact. Essentially every single anti LGBT law and regulation, and almost all of the push back comes from one group of anti trans people in America and it’s them Christian Conservative Party. The ones who are against trans people having surgeries is the Christian Conservative Party. The ones who are angry about which bathroom the trans people use is the conservative Christian party. Trump is a Christian. If you say you are a Christian you are a Christian even if you’re a very bad one. Trump and his party consistently indicates that trans people should not be in the military, that they should not be given gender appropriate licenses and in general, the conservative Christian party says that trans people do not exist. All of this is violence towards the trans community. All of this is oppression towards the trans community. When kids who are trans are sent to Christian camps to cure them of their “gender dysphoria” it’s violence. The operation created in America for the trans community leading to many more harming themselves is almost exclusively because of the societal harm the conservative Christians put on them. Churches weaponizing verses by pulling more info out of it than what is actually there by saying “god made Adam and Eve”/ “man and woman” not Adam and Evan who started calling himself Eve” and so on. That’s all violence towards the trans community.

If you want to know look up books by Christian trans authors, or trans affirming theologians and biblical scholars and see what they write about who persecutes them and tries to undermine them and it’s almost always the conservative Christian party. The Republican Party claims to be a Christian party made up mostly of Christians. Very few non Christians make up the conservative Christian party. Look up anti trans laws in America. You can easily find resources on this.

Oh my God, you threw in with them. Sorry to hear that brother. Which one are you born a man and are now a woman or born a woman and are now a man?

Was you born that way or did you have professional training?
 

Skovand

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Oh my God, you threw in with them. Sorry to hear that brother. Which one are you born a man and are now a woman or born a woman and are now a man?

Was you born that way or did you have professional training?
You do know that cis heterosexuals can also affirm transgender people right? You don’t have to be in the community to recognize the theological and scientific reasons to support it.

Don’t feel bad for me. I feel bad for yall.
 

Skovand

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So what's your point? That Christians should affirm the validity of that subject and trans people?

No thank you Brother, you can keep all that stuff if you want to if that was your point. I dont play the trans game or the pronouns game. I am not violent either. I dont go out attacking trans people. But if I ever run into one and they try to force me to play the pronoun game he will find himself picking himself up off the floor.

You might try to be able to justify the transformers with the scientific mumbo jumbo and Hermaphrodites and all that, but have you forgotten that we live in a corrupted world? So there's going to be some mutation within the species. But that doesnt make them valid or acceptable. Call a spade a spade brother!
My point is in the thread. Did you read it?
 

Skovand

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Real Christians are not going to agree with the False world view that just because you are born to be a male or female, you don't have to believe it.
Real Christians honor the cultural meaning to the original audience of the Bible and science. Dumb Christians westernize the Bible to make it fit their worldview and ignore science.
 
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MA2444

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You do know that cis heterosexuals can also affirm transgender people right? You don’t have to be in the community to recognize the theological and scientific reasons to support it.

Don’t feel bad for me. I feel bad for yall.

More mumbo jumbo. It's a fallen world man. Get used to it. Truth is not fluid, lol.

If you want to sup with the devil you better use a verrry long spoon.
 
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MA2444

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My point is in the thread. Did you read it?

Oh ok. So I did have it right. You seek to encourage Christians to be more loving and accepting of them.

I heard a sermon about Sodom & Gomorrah awhile back and one of his points was that, S&G was destroyed as much for the accepting people who were not gay than for the gay people alone.

SO I dont want get any on me. ICK ICK!

Hey do you want to hear the story about the time I clobbered a gay dude for touching me? He asked for it! ICK!
 

MA2444

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Real Christians honor the cultural meaning to the original audience of the Bible and science. Dumb Christians westernize the Bible to make it fit their worldview and ignore science.

Hahaha! You believe it! Scripture says he who is not with me is against me, ad so you cant come into agreement with demons or suddenly you have turned your back on God and arent christian anymore.

I bet there's no Transformers in heaven, or sympathizers!
 

Skovand

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Oh ok. So I did have it right. You seek to encourage Christians to be more loving and accepting of them.

I heard a sermon about Sodom & Gomorrah awhile back and one of his points was that, S&G was destroyed as much for the accepting people who were not gay than for the gay people alone.

SO I dont want get any on me. ICK ICK!

Hey do you want to hear the story about the time I clobbered a gay dude for touching me? He asked for it! ICK!
Oh not I want Christians to be more loving…. How terrible of me….
 
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Skovand

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It’s funny when those who know the least about the Bible, know the least about science, demonstrate the least of Christ in their words and actions, try to act like they are the light to the world. Satan truly does deceive some into saying…. But I did this and this in your name only
To hear Jesus never knew them. By their fruits….

Some of yall are so scared of truth. No wonder you make so many bullets. So afraid.
 
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