How can anyone fall for the errors of Calvinism ?

[GodsGrace]

You use such a horrendous unbiblical exegesis.

The vessels fitted for destruction are just like the vessels of Glory, they are prepared ahead of time! You really should work on your English grammar before you try to pass yourself off as a bible teacher.

So you attempted to reply to a few verses. That is a good start! But can you put aside your venomous hatred of teh brethren long enough to answer the other verses from Gods Word?

and when you make comments as you did (that is eisegesis not exegesis) please support your hypotheses with Scripture itself for a change.

The above is not for me...but:
I don't believe anyone here hates any person.
I do believe we hate a belief system that belittles God....
understands Him to be a robot builder....
and believes He doesn't love His most important creation....us.
It's also rather disconcerting to see how plain biblical verses are misunderstood due to a skewered belief of both God's nature
and biblical teachings.

 

[Ritajanice]

I'm not worried about your salvation.
And it's nice that you'd like to help me know God's will.
But I think I'll do OK on my own.

Please show me, where I said ,I will help you know God’s will.

I asked you this,RJ says, That’s what I asked you, if you don’t know God’s will, I can’t help you I’m afraid, he leads me every day to do his will...don’t you know in your heart/spirit, that when you are Born Again, you’re in the will of God!

I asked you a question, I didn’t say , I will help you know God’s will..you then came back with this as your answer?

@GodsGrace said..
And it's nice that you'd like to help me know God's will.
But I think I'll do OK on my own.


RJ continues,Jesus was in perfect harmony with Gods will, his children on earth are also in his will...we do the will of the Father.

Only God can help you understand, what it means to know the will of God.like I said, I can’t.

 

[Scott Downey]

Windmill Charge....
If you want to discuss Romans chapters 9, 10 and 11, I'd be willing and I'm sure so would @Behold ....
but perhaps you don't understand that it's speaking about Israel....about corporate salvation
AND NOT ABOUT INDIVIDUAL SALVATION.

God bore with great patience the object of His wrath....
THE ISRAELI NATION......

Perhaps you should study up on Romans 9, 10 and 11.

You can start here --- or anyone else that is interested in knowing the NT well.

Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election

Unfortunate debate over Romans 9-11

I wrote this because of the temptation to focus so much on debated doctrines in Romans 9-11 that we miss the need to humbly worship the God who is revealed so amazingly in these chapters. I also s…

thinkpoint.wordpress.com

Romans 9, 10, and 11 – Part 1

This post is the first in a series on chapters 9, 10, and 11 of the book of Romans. Each part is adapted from an essay I wrote from my personal study of this passage. The essay can be found here. D…

testing521.com

Not just jews, gentiles too
So this is for all peoples.
Romans 9 specifically refutes what you said.
Stop reading commentaries, see what it says for yourself.
Paul is using unbelieving Israel as an example only to explain to us the calling of God.

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Romans 9, all peoples. gentiles. as in v25-26 versus Jews in 27-29

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

verse 33, includes everyone.

verse 30 forward, a summing up of Romans 9

 

[GodsGrace]

Not just jews, gentiles too
So this is for all peoples.
Romans 9 specifically refutes what you said.
Stop reading commentaries, see what it says for yourself.
Paul is using unbelieving Israel as an example only to explain to us the calling of God.

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Romans 9, all peoples. gentiles. as in v25-26 versus Jews in 27-29

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

verse 33, includes everyone.

verse 30 forward, a summing up of Romans 9

OK Scott,,,,,I'll address the above. It takes a lot of time which is why I hesitate. What I posted is not commentaries. These 3 chapters have been studied by scholars and I hope I'm up to the task.
Later.

 

[Ritajanice]

I’m exactly where God wants me to be in my walk with him....he’s 100% in control of my life.

Romans 12

King James Version

​

12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

According to your false teaching...

Calvinists teach that God Himself, decided that some of your family........could not trust in Christ, and so some already died, or will later, and will go to Hell.

Calvinism (TULIP) teaches that God pre-chose some of your family to go to Hell, because GOD HIMSELF, wont allow them to Trust in Christ.

In Fact John CALVINISM does not even KNOW the Father of Jesus The Christ, according to His Theology, that denies The Cross and SPITS on the Grace of God.

Now, you can "play dumb" and not understand that "God choosing some to believe" is not the same as God causing the rest to burn in the Lake of Fire, because Calvin teaches that God would not choose them to believe in Jesus.

Wrong again oh benighted one.

Everyone could not trust in Christ! that is just the nature of man! God looked at humanity, of which no one would ever choose Jesus of themselves and allowed some to believe! Oh the riches of His mercy!

All of mankind if we got what we deserve would burn forever in the lake of fire! That is the Word of God. And you are angry for whatever reason that He chose to have mercy on some.

You have a man centered view while the bible tells us God has a god centered view. Remember He is under no obligation to save a soul or grant mercy and grace to anyone if He so chose!

And now you play god by declaring JOhn Calvin is not even saved! Information that you have no knowledge of and rip out of the hands of God who alone decides these issues. Your arrogance and hatred will be your downfall.

 

[Behold]

Everyone could not trust in Christ!

The Cross denies your Calvinism, but Satan , who wrote your Theology using John Calvin, appreciates your obedience for 30+ yrs.

Calvin is a Devil., and He creates Disciples, who teach his "doctrine of Devils".

 

[GodsGrace]

Not just jews, gentiles too
So this is for all peoples.
Romans 9 specifically refutes what you said.
Stop reading commentaries, see what it says for yourself.
Paul is using unbelieving Israel as an example only to explain to us the calling of God.

Actually SD, I don't read commentaries. As I've already said, what I posted is not a commentary but a scholarly presentation on Romans 9, and actually through to 11.

I agree that, except for passages that are directly spoken to the Apostles, all of the NT if for all persons....
But Romans 9 was written specifically for Paul's Jewish brethren. He is specifically addressing the concern he has for why his Jewish brothers are unable to accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Paul is NOT using Romans 9 to explain the calling of God to each person individually, but to explain why He chose Israel to reveal Himself and also why faith in Jesus is offered to all peoples ....even the gentiles, which Paul also referred to as the great mystery which has now been revealed ...
Colossians 1:25-29
25Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,
26that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints,
27to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
28We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ.
29For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

And please notice verse 28: Paul admonishes EVERY man and teaches EVERY man......
The gospel is for every man SC......God wishes that all men be saved.
1 Timothy 2:4


I'll also say that in Romans 9:2 Paul expresses great sorrow and anguish for his fellow Jews whom he feels are not accepting of Jesus and thus saved.... Is it possible that Paul loves man more than God does...who created man?? I don't think so.
He states that to THEM belongs the SONSHIP, the GLORY, the COVENANTS, the LAW, the WORSHIP and the PROMISES that were made in the OT.
Paul is showing how the OT always had in mind the inclusion of the Gentiles......Abraham...the father of all nations.

It's important to have an overview of these 3 chapters because it's the only way to understand each individual verse that you're probably going to choose to discuss.

Romans 9

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Romans 9:22-24
God wanted to show His wrath.
Yes. To who?

Paul is referring to the OT in these 3 chapters.
In Romans 9:22 Paul is referring to the wrath of God because, indeed, God show wrath for some...

God showed wrath toward those that had built the golden calf.
God showed mercy on them - longsuffering - these vessels of wrath when He heeded Moses in
Exodus 32:7-14
7Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.
8“They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them. They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it and have sacrificed to it and said, ‘This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt!’”
9The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.
10“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”
Moses’ Entreaty

11Then Moses entreated the LORD his God, and said, “O LORD, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?
12“Why should the Egyptians speak, saying, ‘With evil intent He brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to destroy them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your burning anger and change Your mind about doing harm to Your people.
13“Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants to whom You swore by Yourself, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heavens, and all this land of which I have spoken I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
14So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.


Notice that God "changed His mind" about doing harm to the people that had built the gc.
This is how much God loves His creation,,,that He's willing to always give a second chance.

In this same way God shows His mercy to ALL who will accept Him....
Because it's God's desire that all men come to salvation.
Today, in the NC,,,this is accomplished through Jesus Christ.

Romans 9, all peoples. gentiles. as in v25-26 versus Jews in 27-29

25 As He says also in Hosea:

“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For [b]He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
29 And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the Lord of [c]Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

Well Scott, thanks for doing my work for me!
Indeed all of the above is referring to ISRAEL and not to individuals...
which is my point and which is accepted also by Christian theologians that are not of the reformed persuasion.

Romans 9 is discussing the state of ISRAEL...
it's discussing salvation that was given through Israel...through the revelation of God for salvation to all...
first through the Law, which could not be kept because the Holy Spirit was not yet available...
then through Christ, who made the Holy Spirit available to all who would accept Him.

Present Condition of Israel​

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law [d]of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, [e]by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

Amen!
Look at verse 32:
BECAUSE THEY DID NOT SEEK IT BY FAITH....

We are indeed saved by faith in God/Jesus.
As Ephesians clearly states ,,, we are saved by faith.
NOT because God chose some before the foundation of the world.
(and sent everyone else to hell for no reason).

Faith, a gift from God for whoever will want to accept it.
Gifts, after all, do require acceptance.
If you never open the gift you've been given,,,,
you will never have it.

“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”

verse 33, includes everyone.

verse 30 forward, a summing up of Romans 9

Correct again.
Verse 33 includes EVERYONE.
"AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME".
whoever believes
whoever


So what are we debating here SD?
Looks like we agree and I'm not reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please show me, where I said ,I will help you know God’s will.

Sure. As soon as you show me where I questioned your salvation...

You said this in post no. 370:
I don’t believe as you believe don’t worry about my salvation,I’m in Jesus hands..

I NEVER state whether or not a person is saved.
That's for God to know.

And, once again, our convo comes to a screeching halt...

 

[Ritajanice]

Sure. As soon as you show me where I questioned your salvation...

You said this in post no. 370:
I don’t believe as you believe don’t worry about my salvation,I’m in Jesus hands..

I NEVER state whether or not a person is saved.
That's for God to know.

And, once again, our convo comes to a screeching halt...

I didn’t say that you questioned my salvation,..you said you were concerned about me.maybe I was mistaken.
Like you I need to read a bit slower.
Now, maybe you can answer my question about God’s will?

Wasn’t Jesus in the will of God?

Does that make him a robot?

 

[Ritajanice]

The NT teaches that we must BELIEVE in order to be saved.

It teaches that we must be Born Of The Spirit, in order to be saved, you aren’t saved, not until your spirit is Born Again @GodsGrace

How do you know ,that God is who he says he is?

By what means could you possibly know God?

Plus how can you believe in someone you don’t know?

Maybe explain how you know that Jesus died and was resurrected?

Not looking to argue, so not sure why you cut the discussion ?

Further up, what are the balloons for?

 

[Behold]

By what means could you possibly know God?

Becoming a Christian, does not require that you have a Master's Degree in "how to understand and prove that God exists".

So, all that is required of a sinner, is that the Holy Spirit reveal, in your heart, that Jesus is Jesus....who died for you.

Once you SEE that JESUS... you then believe or you wont.

And that Choice, is not God caused...as we are the one's who Believe, or not.

 

[GodsGrace]

I didn’t say that you questioned my salvation,..you said you were concerned about me.maybe I was mistaken.
Like you I need to read a bit slower.
Now, maybe you can answer my question about God’s will?

Wasn’t Jesus in the will of God?

Does that make him a robot?

I read very well RJ.
And, as I said,,,this convo is over.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sorry don’t agree, that is not how Jesus said we are Born Of The Spirit.

We must be Born Again to see the kingdom of God..the Spirit births our spirit into His...he doesn’t say we are Born Again by revealing himself to our heart.

He testifies with our spirit ,as he’s indwelling our spirit, he talks / witnesses to our spirit, that is the Living Spirit rebirth, that is biblical and Gods truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

It teaches that we must be Born Of The Spirit, in order to be saved, you aren’t saved, not until your spirit is Born Again @GodsGrace

How do you know ,that God is who he says he is?

By what means could you possibly know God?

Plus how can you believe in someone you don’t know?

Maybe explain how you know that Jesus died and was resurrected?

Not looking to argue, so not sure why you cut the discussion ?

Further up, what are the balloons for?

The balloons are a nice way of saying
ARRIVEDERCI.

Maybe @Behold could be of better service than me.

 

[Ritajanice]

I read very well RJ.
And, as I said,,,this convo is over.

What a shame, there was no rudeness, all I did was ask you about Jesus.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry don’t agree, that is not how Jesus said we are Born Of The Spirit.

We must be Born Again to see the kingdom of God..the Spirit births our spirit into His...he doesn’t say we are Born Again by revealing himself to our heart.

He testifies with our spirit, that is biblical and Gods truth.

It's funny.....everything you state is true...100% true.

But, unfortunately, you don't UNDERSTAND what is being said in the NT.

And I don't say this to be mean-hearted....it's just the simple truth.

 

[Ritajanice]

The balloons are a nice way of saying
ARRIVEDERCI.

Maybe @Behold could be of better service than me.

It sounds like the discussion isn’t going your way,Sis, pretty immature if you ask me, oh well, never mind.

 

[GodsGrace]

What a shame, there was no rudeness, all I did was ask you about Jesus.

Didn't say you were rude.
Don't have much time to spend on here....
can't keep repeating the same stuff to you over and over.
That's all.

 

[GodsGrace]

It sounds like the discussion isn’t going your way,Sis, pretty immature if you ask me, oh well, never mind.

I'm INCREDIBLY immature.
And proud of it at my age!!