Are Christians Better Off Being Ruled By Unbelievers?

[Wrangler]

It really does inspire “Catholic Christians” to vote in only one direction as if that should fix everything

Nope. We should always vote in one direction, toward righteousness and away from evil.

Christian are told by Jesus Christ himself that we are to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”.

If that were true, you would have provided an actual verse to that effect AND there would be no great commission.

I asked a simple yes or no question. It doesn’t take 12 paragraphs to answer.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 17:Nope. We should always vote in one direction, toward righteousness and away from evil.

If the devil rules the world….they are all evil, just more or less…..please tell me you understand that no human rulership has been successful from God’s perspective…..ever.

If that were true, you would have provided an actual verse to that effect AND there would be no great commission.

I have provided the verses many times to you Wrangler…
John 17:16; John 18:36; 2 Cor 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21…..read ‘em.
I didn’t write them.

I asked a simple yes or no question. It doesn’t take 12 paragraphs to answer.

A dodgy lawyer trick…..for real answers to real questions, you need details, otherwise the Bible would be a very skinny book.
I include details because they are important…and some people don’t have the attention span of a goldfish and appreciate a detailed answer. I don’t write just for you….I think that’s obvious….

 

[Brakelite]

My answer is, 'it depends'. If the church is left free to deliver the gospel, it shouldn't matter who the governing power is. In America, a republican style government system was designed to protect the liberties of religious minorities.
Recent history has seen the left extreme fighting against against religious liberties. We see a present reaction against that history from the right. But is it an over-reaction? Is the Christian conservative right determined to protect religious freedom, or is the goal to establish religion at the expense of all else?

 

[Bob]

John 17:15-16….speaking of his disciples he said to his Father…..
“I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you watch over them because of the wicked one. 16 They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”

Before Pilate…
“Jesus answered: “My Kingdom is no part of this world. If my Kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my Kingdom is not from this source.” 37 So Pilate said to him: “Well, then, are you a king?” Jesus answered: “You yourself are saying that I am a king. For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:36-37)
The “whole world” is under the control of the devil. (1 John 5:19) What part is not then?

Living “in the world” is one thing….we have no control over that….but to remain no part of it….it’s immorality, violence and bloodshed and the governmental agencies that perpetrate war on one another, Christians cannot be part of that. That is the devil’s domain.

Hope that answers your question. Luke tells us that world rulership was “handed over” to the devil….only one person could give the devil world rulership….the one that created it….

Thank you for your prompt reply.

My error in understanding your point appears to arise from the translations you are citing.

In all of the translations I tried, it says “are not part of the world,” which to me is different from a command (?) “take no part.”

It is not my intent to be picky, but to truly understand scripture.

Blessings.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for your prompt reply.

My error in understanding your point appears to arise from the translations you are citing.

In all of the translations I tried, it says “are not part of the world,” which to me is different from a command (?) “take no part.”

What does it mean to be “no part of the world”? What is “the world” that Jesus spoke about?
If John wrote that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”…what part of the world is exempt?

It is not my intent to be picky, but to truly understand scripture.

It has always been my intention to understand the scripture I read in context with the rest of the Bible.
Scripture explains Scripture because it is one book with one author…..so it must contain one truth.

If God handed rulership of the world over to the devil, do you know why he did that knowing what the outcome would be? (Luke 4:5-7)

 

[Wrangler]

If the devil rules the world….they are all evil

Classic primitive dichotomy of us v therm. This all must include all of us, including you. Still, not able to answer simple yes or no question. Hilarious!

 

[Bob]

What does it mean to be “no part of the world”? What is “the world” that Jesus spoke about?
If John wrote that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one”…what part of the world is exempt?

It has always been my intention to understand the scripture I read in context with the rest of the Bible.
Scripture explains Scripture because it is one book with one author…..so it must contain one truth.

If God handed rulership of the world over to the devil, do you know why he did that knowing what the outcome would be? (Luke 4:5-7)

Dear Aunty Jane—

Ok, my communication skills need improving. That said, here is John 17:

14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
(NIV)

It says, “are not of the world”; I was unable to find any translations in BibleGateway with “no part” instead of “not of.”

Can you help?

Blessings.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Classic primitive dichotomy of us v therm. This all must include all of us, including you. Still, not able to answer simple yes or no question. Hilarious!

Seriously Wrangler, “Still, not able to answer simple yes or no question. Hilarious!”???
This is all you have to offer?
The point was…if the devil rules “the whole world” what part of “the whole world” does he not rule?
That makes all human rulership part of the devil’s domain….it is no place for a Christian, who is told to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”. We have to live IN it….but we are to be NO PART of its governance because of who is running the whole show. There are no ‘good guys’….just more or less corrupt participants.

“ALL the kingdoms of the world” were “handed over” to satan. (Luke 4:5-7) “All”, means all. There are no exceptions.
This is what the Bible says, yet you rail against it…..like it shouldn’t be there because it argues with your preferred position….it cancels out your patriotic duty.

“Yes or no” is enough for a simple mind….it does not explain anything….if you don’t need explanations then, you do you…..I’ll do me. OK?
If I don’t know “why” something is true……then a mere statement ”that” it is true without backup, is of no use to me. Apparently all you need is to believe something….it doesn’t seem to matter if it is true or not, as long as you agree with it.

Your responses are an indication of your dedication to truth as opposed to your aversion to a reply to any topic that requires an explanation. The dodgy lawyer tricks don’t work…..unless you really can’t handle the truth. The road to life is cramped and narrow for a reason.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Dear Aunty Jane—

Ok, my communication skills need improving. That said, here is John 17:

14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
(NIV)

It says, “are not of the world”; I was unable to find any translations in BibleGateway with “no part” instead of “not of.”

Can you help?

Always happy to help Bob….
John 17 contains many references to “the world”….so getting a handle on what “the world” means is a first concern. “The world” we know in this instance is not the planet….

Strongs gives its primary definition of “kosmos” as…

1. “an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government.”

it is also defined as…

1. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
2. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
3. world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly.”

So “the world“ that Jesus spoke about was all of the above….

For a Christian to be “not of the world” is the same as being “no part of the world”…..it means not being part of its governance….because of who is ruling “the whole world” (1 John 5:19) There are no exceptions….not being “of the world“ means being separate from it in all the ways that make our conduct unacceptable to God.
If we have used our legal right to vote and participated in putting a particular person or political party into office, we rightly bear responsibility before God for supporting an entity that he has told us, is controlled by the devil.

After enumerating the wickedness of those alienated from God by their ungodly practices, Paul give us a principle…..
“and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.” (Romans 1: 32)

So giving approval or support to such people, is the same as if you do those ungodly deeds yourself.
In giving political support to those who would engage in war with the most heinous of weapons, we would have the blood of innocents on our hands. (Isa 1:15) They will answer to God for that….will we be among them?

Whatever that government or person does in the office into which we helped them attain, falls on those who put them in that position. How did they get there? Through lying propaganda….how many politicians get into office on promises they never keep….this makes them liars. God hates liars.

The entire system is geared to feather the nests of those who want your vote, no matter how sincere they may be individually, they all have to finally admit that they are mere cogs in a much bigger machine….one that will spit them out if they fail to comply. The financial incentive to comply is the reason why they cannot really make a difference in the big picture. Humans will never achieve good government, and the reason is obvious. What is the definition of insanity?

So what position does a Christian have to take in these circumstances? They follow the example of the Master Christ, who was always careful never to meddle in the volatile political situation of the first century.
Chafing under Roman domination, many of the Jews were planning a revolt…..which ended badly at Masada.

Jesus did not once encourage his disciples to meddle in that situation but to keep separate from it. They were to search for the lost sheep and give them the “good news” of a much better government to come…”God’s Kingdom”……Jesus taught us to pray for the kingdom to “come” so that God’s will could be “done on earth as it is in heaven”. This is the government that Christians are to support….they are citizens of God’s kingdom, not man’s. They cannot be dual citizens because the world is ruled by God’s enemy.

Can you see now, why we are to be “not of the world”?

 

[Behold]

Always happy to help Bob….
John 17 contains many references to “the world”….so getting a handle on what “the world” means is a first concern. “The world” we know in this instance is not the planet….

1. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

John 3:16 speaks to this, perfectly, and is denied by Hyper Calvinism.

 

[Aunty Jane]

John 3:16 speaks to this, perfectly, and is denied by Hyper Calvinism.

Yes, God “loved the world” of mankind so much that he sent his beloved son to give his life in exchange for ours…..but the second part of that verse is ignored by those who want to promote a “hell of eternal torment”……

”For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”

”eternal life” is contrasted with eternal death, not “hell”. To “perish”, (Gk “apollymi”) according to Strongs, is defined as….

“to destroy

1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin.”

A loving God derives no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, let alone torturing them for all eternity. (Ezekiel 33:11)
Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life….

 

[Behold]

”eternal life” is contrasted with eternal death, not “hell”.

Hell was created for the Devil and His angels, before Adam was created.

So, its real, and it has its purpose.

The Reason that these.....John 3:36.......end up in Hell, as the beginning of their 2nd Death, that is Eternal Damnation... is because..

Sinners, never born again, are "You are of YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL" Jesus explained... and so, Hell was Created for the Devil, and for ..
"""""""you are of your father the Devil""""", is their eternal home also........

See, Sons/Daughters of God, are "seated in heavenly places" right now.

Sons/Daughtters of the DEVIL are in damnation right now, and die, and go where damnation is eternal.

Jesus told us that "we must be born again", to change our eternal destination, from HELL to Heaven.

Also, its not a correct understanding or theology, to teach that God tortures unbelievers in Hell.

Hell is just the initial eternal destination, for unbelievers, never born again.

See...

Eternity offers only two destinations.

Heaven or Hell, and by The Cross is the only Way... John 14:6, to go to heaven,..... and if you dont go there, there is only one other place you will go.

There is no "limbo"
And "purgatory" is a Catholic created fantasy, right along with "Mary flew to heaven in her dead body".

God does not choose HELL for anyone.......as the person decides their Eternal Destination., and God respects their choice now, and after they die.

Choose Christ by Faith, = Choose Heaven TODAY

Reject Christ and die in unbelief, never born again = CHOOSE Hell... TODAY

 

[MA2444]

If you vote in any political power, you share responsibility for what they do with the power you gave them.
Every innocent life taken by the actions that you sanctioned, will be accounted to you.
What the world does is none of our business. They will account to God for what they do......will you be included in his accounting?

So what about,

All that evil needs to tiumph is for good men to do nothing...

??

 

[Aunty Jane]

God does not choose HELL for anyone.......as the person decides their Eternal Destination., and God respects their choice now, and after they die.

Choose Christ by Faith, = Choose Heaven TODAY

Reject Christ and die in unbelief, never born again = CHOOSE Hell... TODAY

This is not the thread for this discussion, so suffice it to say that you worship a god that is unknown in the Bible…one invented by the Catholic Church as a way to control the masses through fear.

Hell is “sheol/hades”…simply the place we all go when we die…..”sheol/hades” is the common grave of all….(Eccl 9:5, 10) it is not somewhere to fear.

OTOH, ”Gehenna” (also erroneously translate as hell) is a place where the incorrigably wicked go when they die, but it is not a place of conscious torture. It is a place of complete annihilation…because God has no need to keep the wicked in existence only to punish them forever….what would be the point of that? Punishment was meant to lead to repentance and a reconciliation with God…..if there is no way to repent, then God is punishing them for the sake of punishing….that would make him nothing more than a sadistic fiend!…..and you would worship such a god? !

 

[Aunty Jane]

So what about,

All that evil needs to tiumph is for good men to do nothing...

??

It’s not a Bible quote my friend…..it’s a political statement from a politician.…Edmund Burke I believe….

 

[Jack]

Those who are too LAZY too STUDY the Bible deserve burning in Hell FOREVER!

 

[Jack]

It’s not a Bible quote my friend…..it’s a political statement from a politician.…Edmund Burke I believe….

Jesus is God of the Bible Aunty, no matter what your Governing Body told you! You should have STUDIED the Bible before you stumbled into Kingdom Hall / Hallway to Hell!

 

[Behold]

This is not the thread for this discussion,

I discussed it because you brought it up. .. You are the one talking about God torturing people in HELL.

You said this also about HELL..

Here is your Quote.. @Aunty Jane

""""""Yes, God “loved the world” of mankind so much that he sent his beloved son to give his life in exchange for ours…..but the second part of that verse is ignored by those who want to promote a “hell of eternal torment”……

You apparently are one of tho "no Hellers" who hang out on Forums.
If people could laugh who are in Hell right now, .. then you just gave them all a big chuckle.
Are you a Universalist as well?

So, write that "no Hell" Thread, and i'll see you there @Aunty Jane

 

[Aunty Jane]

You apparently are one of tho "no Hellers" who hang out on Forums.
If people could laugh who are in Hell right now, .. then you just gave them all a big chuckle.
Are you a Universalist as well?

Apparently you are one of the sadistic “hellers” who think God has no better use of his time than to make sure that unbelievers and sinners suffer in agony for all eternity…..and this is supposedly a “God of love”…???? Are you serious???

The word “Sheol” in Hebrew is translated as “hades” in the Greek Septuagint, therefore hades (mistranslated “hell”) is nothing more sinister than a restful sleep. Being buried in the earth awaiting a resurrection is what “Sheol“ means. That is what Jews were taught from their Scripture…..Jesus was Jewish and taught from that same Scripture. There never was a “hell of conscious eternal torment”…..that would be something the devil would dream up…not God. A product of the “weeds” that Jesus warned about.

Does it ever occur to you that eternal life is given only to the righteous….in order to torment the souls of the wicked, God would have to keep them alive…..but in the Bible the dead are not conscious, they are not capable of feeling, thinking or any activity in sheol. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

There is no immortal soul that keep living…that is the first lie satan told Eve in the garden. “You surely will not die”….God told Adam he would. Who lied?

Jesus never spoke of “hell” as a place where people’s souls literally burn forever…..he spoke of “Gehenna” as a place that symbolizes eternal death, not eternal suffering. There is no resurrection from Gehenna.

Where is the justice in punishing someone for the sins they commit because they were born with this tendency inherited from Adam? Why did Christ come to rescue sinners from this awful condition?

Any punishment meted out to sinners was to correct them and lead them to repentance….this is what a loving God does. Punishment for the sake of it makes him a sadist.

So, write that "no Hell" Thread, and i'll see you there @Aunty Jane

No thanks, I have read enough of your posts to see that you relish this idea, and I have no interest in listening to more of the lies you promote about this cruel and merciless god that you worship…he is a heartless fiend….and bears no resemblance to the God whom Jesus came to teach us about……you are welcome to him.

 

[Jack]

Aunty declared Jesus and the CYB statement of faith Satanic!