The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[Ritajanice]

We know that saved people do commit sins like murder and adultery, but they don't lose their salvation because a believer is only saved once.

Hello again Brother, I find this sentence rather disturbing, can you show us from scripture that a Born Again,do commit sins like murder and adultery?

Hope that’s ok.

Just posting this scripture for reference...

1 John 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Runningman]

This heretical doctrine called (Theosis) is not supported by any scriptures at all. You tried to use Heb 6:4-6 to support this heretical doctrine, but those verses don't deal with the sins of a believer. They only say that nobody can be saved then lose their salvation at a later stage.

We know that saved people do commit sins like murder and adultery, but they don't lose their salvation because a believer is only saved once. Jesus came for this very reason, He came t atone for the past, present and future sins of His Elect Saints. So there is no sin which His Saints commit which Christ has not already paid for.

You won't find a single verse in the bible to support your doctrine, and you won't find a single verse in the bible to refute my doctrine. You won't debate a Calvinist, because you lose every time

One can sin and fall from the grace of God. It's not explicitly stated in those words, but there are enough conditional statements in the Bible that means it's so.

Condition: walking in the light
Result: purified from all sin

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Since purification from sin is conditional, then it follows good reason that if the condition is not satisfied then the result is not achieved, i.e., one is not purified from from all sin and therefore can fall from grace. Therefore, purification from sins is conditional on progressive sanctification. The idea of all sins already being permanently paid for can be true, but that does not mean one has has unconditional access to the purification from all sin. It's not a one-and-done idea to be purified from sin because sin can happen many times and people can cease their walk [in the light.] The Christian life is a walk, an adventure even, but we haven't crossed the finish line yet. This is why, regardless of all of the theology and arguments that abound, in the end the final judgement is entirely based on someone's works, not the blood of Jesus automatically giving one a free pass through the pearly gates.

Revelation 20:4,10-15, Romans 2:2-12, Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 4:17-18, Matthew 25:26-30, John 5:28-29, Hebrews 10:26-27, etc.

1 Peter 4
17For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
19So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I don't know whether, @Christian Soldier , you want to wind me up or whether you do not have the mental capacity to remember what I tell you about myself and beliefs, neither of which bode well for any further discussion between us.

I was a 5-Point Calvinist for approx. 8 years, and defended the doctrine and Calvin himself. Oh dear, I feel so bad about it now. I read all the top writers and read all the top books.

Then, I began to notice a few things. One was that all the church members were intellectual middle/upper class who had known comfortable lives. Few if any deprived, abused members that I saw of which group I belonged.

Reformed theology would have me believe that it was God's will that I was severely ill at 10 months through mercury poisoning and that I grew up as the scapegoat in a narcissistic family system and it was God's desire for me to be molested by an uncle and grow up emotionally, physically and psychologically too damaged to function normally, marrying abusive men twice..

Then I got to find out how much cherry picking of verses went on, and how plain words like, the world, all, everyone were twisted to mean something else and the cat was out of the bag.

To top it all off, I heard that Calvin taught that God, for His own good pleasure, allows some men to think they are saved when in fact they are not.

Yes I can quote you many texts that SEEM to back up the theology, taken out of context and many texts that show entire sanctification for God's people, taken IN context but I am not going to waste my time.

I don't believe that you were ever a five point Calvinist. What i would suggest is that you went along with Reformed theology, but you didn't actually understand all the doctrines we hold to. As time went by you questioned the doctrines and decided to reject them as they don't meet your presupposed expectations.

You're in the 90+% of professing Christians, who reject Reformed theology because it doesn't meet their expectations. I joined the Reformed Church 12 years ago, and I have never found a single unbiblical doctrine being taught in our Church. Most of our members are Intellectual Middle/Upper Class as well, but I don't see a problem with that statistic. If anything it shows that intelligent people are attracted to the Reformed Church.

I get the sense that you have an inferior complex, and you feel threatened by those of us who have a deeper understanding of theology than yourself. Let me remind you that everyone is at different levels of understanding theology. I didn't like the awful truth of the gospel, in the first few years of hearing it. But I eventually discovered that there was nothing wrong with the gospel and plenty wrong with my theology, so you remind me of myself in the early stages of learning about the truth of the gospel.

You confirm this lack of understanding by making silly comments like, "how plain words like "world" were twisted to mean something else. But your ignorance is exposed by the bible when you look at all the different contexts this "plain word" is used in. You quickly realize that the only plain thing here is your lack of discernment.
The biblical concept of world falls into five categories: the physical world, the human world, the moral world, the temporal world, and the coming world.

So much for plain words, I could show you that the other words you think are plain are anything but in their intended context, but I won't go to the trouble as I get the sense that your not interested in the truth. And you left the Reformed Church because they didn't affirm your theology, so you left to find a seeker friendly Church where anything goes and everyone's private idea of truth is equally valid.

 

[Ritajanice]

There are many examples in the Bible, where Gods people committed serious sins. But God always grants His people, repentance and restores them.

One example that comes to mind is King David, the adulterer and murder;

2 Samuel 12:13
So David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

We see God puts away the sins of His people forever and remembers them no more.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

All of Gods children are saved in the exact way, that is by the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Those from the old testament placed their faith in Jesus (the coming Messiah), and we look back to the same event for our salvation but nobody is saved any other way apart from Christ.
He paid for every single sin of all those God chose to save before He created the world. So all of our past, present and future sins were fully paid for by Christ. This is not a license to sin for Gods children, to the contrary we wrestle against temptation, and we do it gladly because we have been forgiven so much.

There is nowhere in scripture that says a Born Again sins....no more than it says, that they would commit adultery or murder.
We live in our old sin body, until we die....our spirit is Alive in Christ, when we die, our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus resurrected glorified body.

Like you I have voiced my opinion and posted Gods word....I’m not one “ now” who has been called to keep continually going round the mulberry bush.

God showed me, at one time, I would have argued until the cows came home...what he said came by divine heart revelation....I pray I remain humble and obedient before him and continue to Honour His Name...



1
(1) So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. ...

2
(2) Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. ...

3
(3) For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory


L

God Bless as you continue your journey with the Lord.

The word of God says...

1 John 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

 

[Ritajanice]

Sorry to take your thread off topic...I will say no more...God Bless you also, as you continue your journey with the Lord...May he Bless you abundantly.in Jesus Name! Amen!

@Hepzibah .

 

[Christian Soldier]

One can sin and fall from the grace of God. It's not explicitly stated in those words, but there are enough conditional statements in the Bible that means it's so.

Condition: walking in the light
Result: purified from all sin

1 John 1
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Since purification from sin is conditional, then it follows good reason that if the condition is not satisfied then the result is not achieved, i.e., one is not purified from from all sin and therefore can fall from grace. Therefore, purification from sins is conditional on progressive sanctification. The idea of all sins already being permanently paid for can be true, but that does not mean one has has unconditional access to the purification from all sin. It's not a one-and-done idea to be purified from sin because sin can happen many times and people can cease their walk [in the light.] The Christian life is a walk, an adventure even, but we haven't crossed the finish line yet. This is why, regardless of all of the theology and arguments that abound, in the end the final judgement is entirely based on someone's works, not the blood of Jesus automatically giving one a free pass through the pearly gates.

Revelation 20:4,10-15, Romans 2:2-12, Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 4:17-18, Matthew 25:26-30, John 5:28-29, Hebrews 10:26-27, etc.

1 Peter 4
17For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”
19So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

There is nothing in any of those verses about salvation, all of them are exhortations (encouragements) to follow Christ and not to become weary in doing good. None of them say anything about salvation.

A born again believers sins are all forgiven when he receives the gifts of Gods Grace and His gift of faith. This doesn't mean that you become sinless, it just means all of your past, present and future sins are forgiven and you can't lose your salvation.

As for walking in the light, we know it's impossible for any unbeliever to walk in the light, because they scatter like rats and cockroaches from the light. They will never even come near the light, let alone walk in it to earn their salvation. Your Arminian man centered works based gospel, was debunked by Calvin in the 1500's I'm surprised to see some holding on to fables after 500 years.

The only people who walk in the light are those born again Christians, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit Himself leads us into all truth, we just follow. Because without Him we can do nothing, and your best works are as filthy stinking rags in Gods sight. I can't believe that some sill think that God will open the pearly gates, in exchange for their filthy stinking rags. That's the biggest insult to God that you can offer.

You are born dead in your sin, and you think that you can make yourself alive and love the God you hate and hate the sin you love. Well, guess what, the only thing a dead man can do is stink. So you can forget your dead mans works to save you, they never have and they ever will. Salvation is of the Lord and not of that phony superhero, Jacob Arminius.

 

[Christian Soldier]

There is nowhere in scripture that says a Born Again sins....no more than it says, that they would commit adultery or murder.
We live in our old sin body, until we die....our spirit is Alive in Christ, when we die, our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus resurrected glorified body.

Like you I have voiced my opinion and posted Gods word....I’m not one “ now” who has been called to keep continually going round the mulberry bush.

God showed me, at one time, I would have argued until the cows came home...what he said came by divine heart revelation....I pray I remain humble and obedient before him and continue to Honour His Name...



1
(1) So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. ...

2
(2) Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. ...

3
(3) For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory


L

God Bless as you continue your journey with the Lord.

The word of God says...

1 John 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I'm surprised you don't believe that David was a born again Christian. God always loved David, He loved him before he committed adultery and murder and He loved him after he committed those sins.

God never loved any man more, He said David is a man after Gods own heart. He never spoke about any other man like that, so there you have it. Gods favorite man was an adulterer and murder, and he was a born again Christian as well.

 

[Runningman]

There is nothing in any of those verses about salvation, all of them are exhortations (encouragements) to follow Christ and not to become weary in doing good. None of them say anything about salvation.

A born again believers sins are all forgiven when he receives the gifts of Gods Grace and His gift of faith. This doesn't mean that you become sinless, it just means all of your past, present and future sins are forgiven and you can't lose your salvation.

As for walking in the light, we know it's impossible for any unbeliever to walk in the light, because they scatter like rats and cockroaches from the light. They will never even come near the light, let alone walk in it to earn their salvation. Your Arminian man centered works based gospel, was debunked by Calvin in the 1500's I'm surprised to see some holding on to fables after 500 years.

The only people who walk in the light are those born again Christians, who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit Himself leads us into all truth, we just follow. Because without Him we can do nothing, and your best works are as filthy stinking rags in Gods sight. I can't believe that some sill think that God will open the pearly gates, in exchange for their filthy stinking rags. That's the biggest insult to God that you can offer.

You are born dead in your sin, and you think that you can make yourself alive and love the God you hate and hate the sin you love. Well, guess what, the only thing a dead man can do is stink. So you can forget your dead mans works to save you, they never have and they ever will. Salvation is of the Lord and not of that phony superhero, Jacob Arminius.

Hmm going to have to disagree. The apostles went all about the Roman empire reminding Christians to basically stop sinning or there will be hell to pay. No pun intended. It's all over the New Testament. People are also not born sinning either.

Anyway, how do you account for the final judgement being works based whether they be Christian or not?

 

[Ritajanice]

So ultimately purification, illumination, deification—it’s not the pursuit of enlightenment; it’s the pursuit of love: the love of God. It is the pursuit of a spiritual marriage, loving and receiving love. It is the marriage-feast, love being the wine that’s set forth on God’s table. In the deified man, it’s the man who is bathed in the light of God’s love to the point that it radiates from him. St. Isaac of Syria says:

God’s love is by its nature warmth. When it lights on someone without any limit, it plunges his soul into ecstasy. That is why the heart of one who has felt it cannot bear to be deprived of it, but he gradually undergoes a strange alteration in proportion to the love that enters into him. These are the signs of that love: His face becomes inflamed with joy, and his body is filled with warmth. Fear and shame desert him as if he had gone outside of himself.

Wow!!...that’s all I’m going to say and thank you Lord, for this imo, incredible truth!

He also led me to this commentary...Praise God...

 

[Christian Soldier]

There is nowhere in scripture that says a Born Again sins....no more than it says, that they would commit adultery or murder.
We live in our old sin body, until we die....our spirit is Alive in Christ, when we die, our resurrected bodies will be like Jesus resurrected glorified body.

Like you I have voiced my opinion and posted Gods word....I’m not one “ now” who has been called to keep continually going round the mulberry bush.

God showed me, at one time, I would have argued until the cows came home...what he said came by divine heart revelation....I pray I remain humble and obedient before him and continue to Honour His Name...



1
(1) So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. ...

2
(2) Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people. ...

3
(3) For everything comes from him and exists by his power and is intended for his glory


L

God Bless as you continue your journey with the Lord.

The word of God says...

1 John 3​

​

King James Version​

​

​

3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

So you don't believe that Gods favorite person in the bible was a born again believer. This unbelief of Gods Word is very troubling to me, I will pray for you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hello @Hepzibah

Is this in line with your topic..may you confirm that I can discuss this, if not I will delete the post.thank you.

So you don't believe that Gods favorite person in the bible was a born again believer. This unbelief of Gods Word is very troubling to me, I will pray for you.

I believe the Spirit was upon him, I don’t believe that he was permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit..I believe that could only happen after the death and resurrection of Jesus.

The Holy Spirit cannot indwell a sinner heart/spirit, permanently.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Hmm going to have to disagree. The apostles went all about the Roman empire reminding Christians to basically stop sinning or there will be hell to pay. No pun intended. It's all over the New Testament. People are also not born sinning either.

Anyway, how do you account for the final judgement being works based whether they be Christian or not?

It's OK to disagree, but if your reason for disagreeing is only based on your private opinion, then your opinion is just one of 8 billion. So it worth 0.000000001%.
Opinions are like noses, everybody has one. I'm more interested in what Gods Word says about the matter. I see you couldn't qualify your statement;

"The apostles went all about the Roman empire reminding Christians to basically stop sinning or there will be hell to pay"

There's no point in asking you for a scripture reference to support this opinion of yours, as I know that no such scripture exists. It's nowhere in the New Testament, and you're dead wrong about "not being born a sinner either". God hates sinners while they are in the womb, before they ever do anything;

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Why why do you think God hated Esau, before he was even born. Please allow me to answer, God see's the beginning of time and the end of time in the present, He is outside of time and space. He is separate to His creation, His creation is subject to all of the natural laws God set in place, but God Himself is not subject to any natural laws, so He sees the whole of history and time as if it had already played out. That's why He has the right to hate people, before they are born.

Mankind inherited Adams corrupt sin nature, no sinless person has ever been born. Children hate God from the womb and they love sin form the womb. The sooner you realize this fact the better off you will be.

 

[RedFan]

Anyway, how do you account for the final judgement being works based whether they be Christian or not?

Are you referring to John 5:28-29 here?

 

[Behold]

The doctrine we have been looking at - entire sanctification, and whether it is possible for man to be without sin in this life

The way for a person to become sinless for life......is to become a born again CHRISTian.

So, why does that make you sinless?

Its because the Law is removed from you, by the Cross of Christ, and that means the Law and Commandments, can never again DEFINE the Born again CHRISTian as a sinner and their deeds as sin.

The born again are "not under the Law, but UNDER GRACE"..

And this "made free from sin" is completed by the SAME Cross of Christ because..

"God hath made JESUS to be SIN FOR US"..... = US.. The Born again.

"Jesus is the ONE TIME>.. ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin"....

What is the end result?

The end result for the Born again, is that they are made righteous, forgiven all sin for all time, and have become "the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God, in Christ".

This is why the NT teaches that the born again are SAINTS who are "one with God" and are no longer of the world, because they are now born again into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Runningman]

It's OK to disagree, but if your reason for disagreeing is only based on your private opinion, then your opinion is just one of 8 billion. So it worth 0.000000001%.
Opinions are like noses, everybody has one. I'm more interested in what Gods Word says about the matter. I see you couldn't qualify your statement;

"The apostles went all about the Roman empire reminding Christians to basically stop sinning or there will be hell to pay"

There's no point in asking you for a scripture reference to support this opinion of yours, as I know that no such scripture exists. It's nowhere in the New Testament, and you're dead wrong about "not being born a sinner either". God hates sinners while they are in the womb, before they ever do anything;

Romans 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Why why do you think God hated Esau, before he was even born. Please allow me to answer, God see's the beginning of time and the end of time in the present, He is outside of time and space. He is separate to His creation, His creation is subject to all of the natural laws God set in place, but God Himself is not subject to any natural laws, so He sees the whole of history and time as if it had already played out. That's why He has the right to hate people, before they are born.

Please take a moment and gather yourself and realize the side you're arguing for right now. You're basically arguing that the apostles did not tell people to stop sinning. Hello, sir. Have you ever read the Bible? Ceasing sin activity is a major theme from cover to cover. I'll just take some from the New Testament, let you read them, and you can decided if you still believe it's my opinion or Scripture.

Romans 2 (NIV)
7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Romans 8 (NIV)
12Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

1 Corinthians 15 (NIV)
34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

Galatians 5 (NIV)
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mankind inherited Adams corrupt sin nature, no sinless person has ever been born. Children hate God from the womb and they love sin form the womb. The sooner you realize this fact the better off you will be.

Every person is born sinless. Abel, Jesus, you and me. Which law of God do you suppose people were born violating?

 

[Runningman]

Are you referring to John 5:28-29 here?

That's one for sure. There are more like Revelation 20:4,10-15, Romans 2:2-12, Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 1 Peter 4:17-18, Matthew 25:26-30, and Hebrews 10:26-27.

So I am really curious that despite all the arguments and lawyering and theology.... how do you get around the works-based judgement in the end anyway?

 

[Taken]

@Hepzibah

The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

Like your thread!
Not much interested in commentaries…

Agree it is about a transformation ‘process’…For and Offered TO the natural man.
Enlightenment is a step in the process, but not the final step….
Agree the goal is to become PERFECTED IN Gods LOVE and Gods LOVE IN the man and mans LOVE IN GOD…IS the SECURENESS…the ASSUREDNESS a man HAS once and forever become QUALIFIED that “that perfection” STANDS “forever”. (Ie the acronym OSAS).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Every person is born sinless. Abel, Jesus, you and me. Which law of God do you suppose people were born violating?

Every person is NOT naturally born sinless.
Every natural born person IS born IN sin.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Runningman]

Every person is NOT naturally born sinless.
Every natural born person IS born IN sin.

Glory to God,
Taken

That erroneously suggests that God creates sinners and thus He would be held accountable for that. When people sin in and of their own choices the judgement resides on them. That is how God holds people accountable and why people are not born sinning. Original sin/born sinning concept is bunk.

 

[Lambano]

That erroneously suggests that God creates sinners and thus He would be held accountable for that. When people sin in and of their own choices the judgement resides on them. That is how God holds people accountable and why people are not born sinning. Original sin/born sinning concept is bunk.

"The doctrine of depravity is the one Christian dogma that is empirically verifiable." - D.K. Chesterton

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." - Psalm 51:5, NKJV

Gotta disagree with you, Runningman, both from a Biblical standpoint and from personal observation. We are born self-centered (babies want their needs met NOW, they don't care who it inconveniences, and they'll cry and scream until they get it), and from there we just learn how to conceal our sinfulness better.

Is it fair that we're born inclined to sin and then we're held accountable for our thoughts, words, and deeds? I don't know. Every time I complained as a kid, "That's not fair!", they told me, "Who said life was fair?"

There's got to be a better way.