GJohn 1.1 ἦν

[KUWN]

The creation of the Logos, is found here.

"God was manifested in the Flesh"

"The WORD became Flesh, and dwelt among us".

Jesus said.."if you've seen me, you've SEEN the Father".

Jesus said.. "I and my Father, are ONE"..

If you read Gen..it says that "God spoke and " creation began to exist.

Now, see this as Jesus the WORD, of Creation, and then go to 1 John 1:10, and read that JESUS the Savior, virgin born.. "made the World".

I will assume you are a new believer so I will go easy on you, but your position is overtly blasphemous and I thought you ought to know that before you wrote any more on this subject without studying it.

You wrote:

Jesus said.. "I and my Father, are ONE"..
ONE what?

Finally,
What commentaries, if any, have you read on the Gospel of John?

 

[St. SteVen]

Right here-but you can't "see it"

Answer the question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Jesus’ response to the Jews is mistranslated to infer something he never said.
Jesus never once claimed to be anything other than “the son of God”….

The Jewish leaders wanted him dead, and pinning a charge of blasphemy on him would gain the people’s support, and this is what led Pilate to sign his death warrant….the people threatened Pilate’s political career by saying that he tolerated a king that was not Caesar…..treason carried the death penalty, so he washed his hands of the whole matter and handed Jesus over to be executed, knowing full well that he was innocent of any charge under Roman law.

Look it up in the concordance where Jesus supposedly said “I Am” and see that he was asked a past tense question, so he gave a past tense answer.
He said “before Abraham was born I was”…or “I have been”….equally valid translations of what he said and in keeping with the import of the question he was answering.

Strongs definition of the word…

“εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was.”

So….not “I Am” but “I have been”….meaning that he existed before Abraham. It’s a simple statement but complicated by being translated incorrectly to support a doctrine that never linked Exodus 3:15 with John 8:58….there is no connection except in the minds of those who believe something the Bible has never taught.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus’ response to the Jews is mistranslated to infer something he never said.
Jesus never once claimed to be anything other than “the son of God”….

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Because they disbelieved.

@St. SteVen You know it wasn’t only because they disbelieved, but because they were intent on finding fault with a man who was making the Jewish leadership look bad, exposing their misinterpretation of Scripture and their hypocrisy and self centeredness. A charge of blasphemy would serve their evil intentions, whipping up the ire of the people which was used as leverage to have him executed. (Matt 27:25)
Stoning did not guarantee that a man died. Paul was stoned a few times and survived after being left for dead. The Jews may have wanted to stone him, but a Roman execution would be a much more satisfying way to be rid of him for good.

No need to complicate this with long and convoluted arguments, it's simple stuff.

It isn’t me who complicated this issue….it was those who in the early centuries, true to Jesus warning about the impending apostasy, that the truth of the Bible would be twisted by the same enemy who corrupted Judaism. Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism….just with more sects….many, many more.

 

[face2face]

Ah, so the argument is that when the Logos became flesh and dwelt among us, the Logos was no longer the Logos?

No, the Logos became flesh but did not remain so....do you believe God's intention for Christ was to remain in sins flesh? Now the Logos manifested the fullness of Mercy and Grace while he wrestled in that flesh, but Logos never intended the Christ to remain mortal!

Maybe you can follow John's reasoning?

No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is in closest fellowship with the Father, has made God known Jn 1:17–18.

That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:29

Do you believe?

F2F

 

[APAK]

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[

SS why do you keep trying to get water from this dry rock. I already answered your query. It was blasphemous that Jesus called himself the true Son of God and being especially more significant to God than Abraham. This was a slap in these Pharisees face. And remember, Jesus even said they never honored Abraham anyway, because they do not honor Jesus and because their true spiritual father was the devil. He degraded them from both ended of their candle. They wanted him killed at any cost.

 

[face2face]

The introduction of Neo-Platonian thought was done because it was necessary to reconcile the conflicting claims of Jesus's divinity in John, Colossians, 1 Corinthians, Philippians, et. al.

Yes they certainly got that wrong! Their starting point was pre-existence and from there it was all down hill! The Apostles never spoke to the Lord's Divinity only that his origin was from God via His Holy Spirit Power and that he was born of a woman in the long line of sinful flesh.

with traditional non-negotiable Jewish monotheism. We either deal with the contradiction, deny the NT says what it says, abandon any pretense of Biblical inerrancy, or live with the cognitive dissonance.

Be honest Lambano, if the Trinity was the core doctrine of the Godhead, do you believe the Apostles did a good job of expressing it in the same terms designed by the men centuries later?

F2F

 

[Behold]

I will assume you are a new believer so I will go easy on you, but your position is overtly blasphemous and I thought you ought to know that before you wrote any more on this subject without studying it.

You stated something you can't ever prove., and you'll do it again.

You wrote:

Jesus said.. "I and my Father, are ONE"..
ONE what?

"God is A Spirit"

"Jesus is That Spirit"

If you read Gen.. (You'll need a bible)... you'll note that this is stated.

"Let US... make man.. .in OUR Image"

"US... and OUR">.. = 2

That is God the Father, and Jesus the pre-incarnate "Word who became flesh" and "made the World".. In John 1:10

Finally,
What commentaries, if any, have you read on the Gospel of John?

I never use commentaries ., as commentaries produce theologically confused people like you, @KUWN.

What i use is the NT, and all i teach is Pauline Theology.

You can go and "Google" that, so that you can come back, and pretend that you know what that means.

 

[face2face]

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

[

I love this section of Scripture because the Lord knew exactly what he was doing!

Its the same issue as we saw with Johann and Colossians!

Christ's reference to Abraham is to affirm Christ's pre-eminence, not pre-existence.

But you need spiritual discernment to understand this.

It rather amusing watching Trinitarians force some literal reading of this as though Christ is teaching that he is older than Abraham.

Anyway need not to worry St Steven, the Lord answered this later with "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56).

In other words the promise of Christ was from before the foundation of the world which you know is true - though you might not agree, on the basis of losing ground.

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Yes they certainly got that wrong! Their starting point was pre-existence and from there it was all down hill! The Apostles never spoke to the Lord's Divinity only that his origin was from God via His Holy Spirit Power and that he was born of a woman in the long line of sinful flesh.

Be honest Lambano, if the Trinity was the core doctrine of the Godhead, do you believe the Apostles did a good job of expressing it in the same terms designed by the men centuries later?

F2F

If I can weigh in here -- I don't think the Apostles ever figured the Trinity out. They didn't express more than they could understand -- those who bothered to express anything in writing, at least.

 

[face2face]

If I can weigh in here -- I don't think the Apostles ever figured the Trinity out. They didn't express more than they could understand -- those who bothered to express anything in writing, at least.

Thank you for an honest answer.

Let me ask you another question then...if it was not revealed to the Apostles and we are told with absolute confidence the mystery has been revealed here:

3 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in[b] God, who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

This new mystery (Trinity) must therefore be of man and not God. (which explains why those who believe it cannot understand it)

Is there any reference to the Trinity in Ephesians 3?

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

It was blasphemous

Thank you.
Finally someone was brave enough to own up to this.

Suddenly this topic has become a battleground for the deity of Christ.
I love Christians. Really, I do. - LOL

[

 

[face2face]

St. SteVen said:

Answer my question then.

Why did they pick up stones to stone Jesus? Was it something he said?

John 8:58-59 NIV
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

Thank you.
Finally someone was brave enough to own up to this.

Suddenly this topic has become a battleground for the deity of Christ.
I love Christians. Really, I do. - LOL

[

It was interpreted as blasphemous but the import of Christs words is that he was in the Mind of the Father (and promised) before Abraham.

The Deity of Christ ventures into Councils and Creeds - the original Gospel held no such teaching.

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Thank you for an honest answer.

Let me ask you another question then...if it was not revealed to the Apostles and we are told with absolute confidence the mystery has been revealed here:

3 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— 2 assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3 how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. 4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power. 8 To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in[b] God, who created all things, 10 so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

This new mystery (Trinity) must therefore be of man and not God. (which explains why those who believe it cannot understand it)

Is there any reference to the Trinity in Ephesians 3?

F2F

I see no reference in Ephesians 3 to the Trinity. But nor do I think that the Trinity was the "mystery" Paul wrote about.

For the record: We really need to separate Trinitarianism from Binitarianism here. Paul -- and the entire NT for that matter -- hints far more frequently at the latter than at the former. The divinity of Christ is the only issue worth trying to distill from the NT, in my opinion. No offense to the Holy Spirit, but there are only three NT references to the Holy Spirit that can even arguably be deemed a Trinitarian reference --and one of those (the Johannine comma) may be spurious.

 

[face2face]

Here is a question for T believers:

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16) and "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14)

If Jesus was to use the Divine name would that prove he is Very God?

F2F

 

[RedFan]

Here is a question for T believers:

The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ was "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Tim. 3:16) and "the word" (Greek: logos) "made flesh." (John 1:14)

If Jesus was to use the Divine name would that prove he is Very God?

F2F

Prove that He was? No. Evidence that He was. I suppose so. But we have to weigh ALL the evidence before deciding, right?

 

[St. SteVen]

I see no reference in Ephesians 3 to the Trinity. But nor do I think that the Trinity was the "mystery" Paul wrote about.

For the record: We really need to separate Trinitarianism from Binitarianism here. Paul -- and the entire NT for that matter -- hints far more frequently at the latter than at the former. The divinity of Christ is the only issue worth trying to distill from the NT, in my opinion. No offense to the Holy Spirit, but there are only three NT references to the Holy Spirit that can even arguably be deemed a Trinitarian reference --and one of those (the Johannine comma) may be spurious.

This isn't a criticism. But I want to discuss this.
If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

- Born of the virgin Mary
- Lived a sinless life
- Was in constant contact with the Father
- Confirmed by miracles
- Went to the cross on our behalf, to pay our death penalty
- Rose from the dead on the third day
- Spent another 40 day with his disciples
- Ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of God

If Jesus wasn't divine, what was he?

[

 

[face2face]

I see no reference in Ephesians 3 to the Trinity. But nor do I think that the Trinity was the "mystery" Paul wrote about.

Agree

For the record: We really need to separate Trinitarianism from Binitarianism here.

It makes no sense to have two persons in the Godhead, One with Power and One without - just no logical or theological reason provided.

Paul -- and the entire NT for that matter -- hints far more frequently at the latter than at the former. The divinity of Christ is the only issue worth trying to distill from the NT, in my opinion.

The issues stems from the fact that God was required to declare His Righteousness through an obedient Son so what he was and what he became is where I see the confusion. Divinity would teach the T believer that the sufferings of Christ were are fake facade if there is a god behind the man. It's enough to know God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself and overcame Sins Flesh in His Son.

No offense to the Holy Spirit, but there are only three NT references to the Holy Spirit that can even arguably be deemed a Trinitarian reference --and one of those (the Johannine comma) may be spurious.

The Holy Spirit is personified everywhere in the NT which again provides confusion for the T believer as they do not understand why its personified.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Prove that He was? No. Evidence that He was. I suppose so. But we have to weigh ALL the evidence before deciding, right?

I think this is where the rubber meets the road on this subject. Some are willing to add the T formula way to quickly before understanding how God manifestation works and why God show this work in Christ.

He really is the firstfruits and firstborn.

F2F