GJohn 1.1 ἦν

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Johann

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What's most sad about this is the context of Colossians would teach you the truth but you don't want to know the truth, only the many words in your commentaries.

View attachment 51369

If you studied the Word of God in context Johann you would find Paul is speaking of the Pre-eminence of Christ not the Pre-existence.

You are so messed up in your brain with 3n1 dogma, you can't see the main themes of the entire Epistle.

F2F
Your "When" is potentially misleading-

In Colossians 1:15-20, the passage isn't suggesting that Christ Himself was "created." Instead, it emphasizes that Christ is preeminent over all creation, being the "firstborn" (prototokos) in the sense of rank and authority, not origin.

ος εστιν εικων του θεου του αορατου πρωτοτοκος πασης κτισεως
οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα τα εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

A more accurate phrasing under "When" might be:

When: Realized through the resurrection and exaltation of Christ.
In this context, "firstborn" signifies that Jesus is the first to be raised from the dead to eternal life, achieving the intended design for humanity and securing eternal redemption, rather than implying that He was part of the created order. This rephrasing maintains the emphasis on His role in redeeming creation and highlights that His preeminence was demonstrated at the resurrection rather than implying His own creation.
Col_1:15


Ch. 1 DOCTRINE - Christ's Preeminence Declared.
1. In the Gospel Message - Col_1:1-12
2. In Redemption - Col_1:13-14
3. In Creation - Col_1:15-17

Vs. 15-17; Seven unique characteristics that qualify Christ to have the supremacy.

Image -- eikon = Icon; 1) Like on coins. The Greek word for “image” is eikōn, from which the Eng. word “icon” derives. It means, “copy” or “likeness.” Jesus

image of the invisible God -- Jesus Christ makes the Father and the Spirit visible to people. Paul later draws on the notion of resembling God when writing about how people should treat one another (Col_3:10).

Firstborn -- refers to title or rank and honor, the highest. Not literally to our English concept of one who is born first.

firstborn of all creation . . It would be wrong to think in physical terms here, as if Paul were asserting that the Son had a physical origin or was somehow created (the classic Arian heresy) rather than existing eternally as the Son, with the Father and the Holy Spirit, in the Godhead. What Paul had in mind was the rights and privileges of a firstborn son, especially the son of a monarch who would inherit ruling sovereignty. This is how the expression is used of David: “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth” (Psa_89:27). - FSB

the firstborn over all creation . . Cf. Col_1:18. The Greek word for “firstborn” can refer to one who was born first chronologically, but most often refers to pre-eminence in position, or rank (see note on Heb_1:6; cf. Rom_8:29). In both Greek and Jewish culture, the firstborn was the ranking son who had received the right of inheritance from his father, whether he was born first or not.- MSB
[See MSB for an extended grammatical point.]
Thus Jesus is the firstborn in the sense that He has the preeminence (Col_1:18) and possesses the right of inheritance “over all creation” (cf. Heb_1:2; Rev_5:1-7, Rev_5:13). He existed before the creation and is exalted in rank above it. - MSB

Firstborn . . does not mean he was created; it is a title, drawn from the OT, indicating supremacy of rank and priority in time (see, e.g., Psa_89:27). - NLTSB

But I do not expect you to understand.

J.
 
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face2face

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Can you please substitute "Son" (or "Word" or "Wisdom" or something else) for "Jesus" here, and reserve "Jesus" for the incarnate Son? It sure would help me keep things straight!
incarnate is a human term which is not mentioned in Colossians or in any book of the Bible. It would help if you kept your comments to Scriptural themes...like Pre-eminence.

Why not read Colossians the way Paul intended?

F2F
 
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face2face

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Firstborn . . does not mean he was created; it is a title, drawn from the OT, indicating supremacy of rank and priority in time (see, e.g., Psa_89:27). - NLTSB
If your source of knowledge is error and you keep copying and pasting from it, what will you only know?

And I (God) will make him (Jesus Christ) the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. Ps 89:27.

And he did - he raised him up out of the line of sin's flesh, he died to sin once, and was resurrected and glorified to a position, name and given an inheritence, which he had never had before (otherwise it would not be an inheritence!!)

F2F
 
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Johann

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If your source of knowledge is error and you keep copying and pasting from it, what will you only know?

And I (God) will make him (Jesus Christ) the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. Ps 89:27.

And he did - he raised him up out of the line of sin flesh to an inheritance, he died to sin once and was resurrected and glorified to a position, name and inheritence which he had never had before (otherwise it would not be an inheritence!!)

F2F
Psalm 89:27 is part of a psalm attributed to Ethan the Ezrahite, which celebrates God's covenant with David and His promises to establish David's lineage and kingdom forever. This verse reads:

"Also I will make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." (Psalm 89:27, NKJV)

Psa 89:27 indeed H637 aph אף Conj Also I H589 ani אני Pro-1cs I firstborn H1060 bkur בכור N-ms [My] firstborn, I-shall-give·him H5414 H8799 athn·eu אתנהו V-Qal-Imperf-1cs+3ms will make him uppermost-one H5945 oliun עליון Adj-ms the highest to·kings-of H4428 l·mlki למלכי Prep-l+N-mpc of the kings earth H776 artz ארץ N-fs of the earth.


Psa 89:27 (28) Also I will make him My Bechor, elyon (most exalted) of the Malkhei Aretz.
Psa 89:28 (29) My chesed will I be shomer over for him forevermore, and My Brit shall stand unfailing with him.
Psa 89:29 (30) His zera also will I make to endure forever, and his kisse as the days of Shomayim.
Psa 89:30 (31) If his banim forsake My torah, walk not in My mishpatim,
Psa 89:31 (32) If they violate My chukkot, and are not shomer over My mitzvot;
Psa 89:32 (33) Then will I visit their peysha with shevet (rod), and their avon (iniquity) with stripes.
Psa 89:33 (34) Nevertheless My chesed will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer My emunah (faithfulness) to fail.
Psa 89:34 (35) My Brit will I not violate, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
Psa 89:35 (36) Once have I sworn by My Kodesh; I will not lie unto Dovid.
Psa 89:36 (37) His zera shall endure l'olam, and his kisse as the shemesh before Me.
Psa 89:37 (38) It shall be established olam as the yarei'ach, and as an ed ne'eman (a faithful witness) in the heavens. Selah.
Psa 89:38 (39) But Thou hast cast off [mem-alef-samech, see same word Psalm 118:22] and abhorred, Thou hast been in wrath with Thine Moshiach.
Psa 89:39 (40) Thou hast made void the Brit of Thy eved; Thou hast profaned his nezer (diadem) to the ground.
Psa 89:40 (41) Thou hast broken down all his gederot (hedges); Thou hast brought his strongholds to ruin.

Context of Psalm 89:27
Psalm 89 is divided into two main sections:

Verses 1–37: The psalmist recounts God's covenant with David and His promises of eternal faithfulness.
Verses 38–52: The tone shifts as the psalmist laments the apparent failure of the Davidic covenant, possibly due to the fall of Jerusalem or Israel's captivity. Despite the apparent setbacks, he pleads for God's faithfulness to the covenant.
In Psalm 89:27, God is reaffirming His promise to make David—and by extension, his royal line—the preeminent ruler among the kings of the earth. The term "firstborn" here (bekhor in Hebrew) is a title of rank rather than chronological birth order, indicating supremacy and authority.

"Firstborn" in ancient Israel held a position of honor and inheritance, denoting leadership, favor, and prominence. By calling David His "firstborn," God is setting David above other rulers and establishing his dynasty as the primary line of authority.

Messianic Implications
The promise to make David "the highest of the kings of the earth" has a messianic dimension. While it refers directly to David and his descendants, it points ultimately to the Messiah—Jesus Christ—who is the true fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. In the New Testament, Jesus is described as the "firstborn" in multiple ways:

Firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15) — indicating His supremacy.
Firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) — emphasizing His resurrection as the first to rise to eternal life.
Firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29) — establishing Him as the head of a new redeemed family.
Thus, Psalm 89:27 foreshadows the Messiah’s ultimate role as the exalted King who fulfills God’s promises to David, reigning supreme over all earthly and spiritual powers.

Key Themes in Context
Covenantal Faithfulness: God’s unbreakable covenant with David emphasizes that His promises are grounded in His steadfast love and commitment.
Divine Sovereignty: God exalts whom He chooses, establishing David’s line as the ruling dynasty. This reflects His control over the rise and fall of nations.
Messianic Hope: The verse serves as a foreshadowing of Christ’s coming as the true “firstborn” King, surpassing all earthly rulers and fulfilling God’s promise to establish David’s throne forever.
In summary, Psalm 89:27 celebrates God's elevation of David’s line, which finds its ultimate fulfillment in Jesus Christ, the supreme "firstborn" and eternal King.

Get your doctrines straight, F2F, and restore the Deity of Christ Jesus.

Don't add to the Scriptures and diminish WHO Messiah is.

J.
 
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face2face

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Psalm 89:27 is part of a psalm attributed to Ethan the Ezrahite, which celebrates God's covenant with David and His promises to establish David's lineage and kingdom forever. This verse reads:

"Also I will make him My firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." (Psalm 89:27, NKJV)
Agree
Psa 89:27 indeed H637 aph אף Conj Also I H589 ani אני Pro-1cs I firstborn H1060 bkur בכור N-ms [My] firstborn, I-shall-give·him H5414 H8799 athn·eu אתנהו V-Qal-Imperf-1cs+3ms will make him uppermost-one H5945 oliun עליון Adj-ms the highest to·kings-of H4428 l·mlki למלכי Prep-l+N-mpc of the kings earth H776 artz ארץ N-fs of the earth.


Psa 89:27 (28) Also I will make him My Bechor, elyon (most exalted) of the Malkhei Aretz.
Psa 89:28 (29) My chesed will I be shomer over for him forevermore, and My Brit shall stand unfailing with him.
Psa 89:29 (30) His zera also will I make to endure forever, and his kisse as the days of Shomayim.
Psa 89:30 (31) If his banim forsake My torah, walk not in My mishpatim,
Psa 89:31 (32) If they violate My chukkot, and are not shomer over My mitzvot;
Psa 89:32 (33) Then will I visit their peysha with shevet (rod), and their avon (iniquity) with stripes.
Psa 89:33 (34) Nevertheless My chesed will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer My emunah (faithfulness) to fail.
Psa 89:34 (35) My Brit will I not violate, nor alter the thing that is gone out of My lips.
Psa 89:35 (36) Once have I sworn by My Kodesh; I will not lie unto Dovid.
Psa 89:36 (37) His zera shall endure l'olam, and his kisse as the shemesh before Me.
Psa 89:37 (38) It shall be established olam as the yarei'ach, and as an ed ne'eman (a faithful witness) in the heavens. Selah.
Psa 89:38 (39) But Thou hast cast off [mem-alef-samech, see same word Psalm 118:22] and abhorred, Thou hast been in wrath with Thine Moshiach.
Psa 89:39 (40) Thou hast made void the Brit of Thy eved; Thou hast profaned his nezer (diadem) to the ground.
Psa 89:40 (41) Thou hast broken down all his gederot (hedges); Thou hast brought his strongholds to ruin.

Context of Psalm 89:27
Psalm 89 is divided into two main sections:
You have made no meaningful point so far!

Verses 1–37: The psalmist recounts God's covenant with David and His promises of eternal faithfulness.
Verses 38–52: The tone shifts as the psalmist laments the apparent failure of the Davidic covenant, possibly due to the fall of Jerusalem or Israel's captivity. Despite the apparent setbacks, he pleads for God's faithfulness to the covenant.
In Psalm 89:27, God is reaffirming His promise to make David—and by extension, his royal line—the preeminent ruler among the kings of the earth. The term "firstborn" here (bekhor in Hebrew) is a title of rank rather than chronological birth order, indicating supremacy and authority.
Again nothing here! Only that which has already been made!
"Firstborn" in ancient Israel held a position of honor and inheritance, denoting leadership, favor, and prominence. By calling David His "firstborn," God is setting David above other rulers and establishing his dynasty as the primary line of authority.
Correct Jesus Christ is God's firstborn Son.
Messianic Implications
The promise to make David "the highest of the kings of the earth" has a messianic dimension. While it refers directly to David and his descendants, it points ultimately to the Messiah—Jesus Christ—who is the true fulfillment of the Davidic covenant. In the New Testament, Jesus is described as the "firstborn" in multiple ways:
Why are you making points against your T held beliefs?

Jesus is the son of David after the flesh - we know this as Paul opens Romans with this truth!

Firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15) — indicating His supremacy.
Pre-eminence as per Col 1:18
Firstborn from the dead (Colossians 1:18) — emphasizing His resurrection as the first to rise to eternal life.
Given Eternal Life from the dead by His Father
Firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29) — establishing Him as the head of a new redeemed family.
Correct
Thus, Psalm 89:27 foreshadows the Messiah’s ultimate role as the exalted King who fulfills God’s promises to David, reigning supreme over all earthly and spiritual powers.
Again Johann, you have said nothing so far to support your T beliefs but everything stated supports Christ as being the Firsborn from the dead - firstfruits of those who sleep!
Get your doctrines straight, F2F, and restore the Deity of Christ Jesus.
Did you see that Johann - all that copy and pasted text proving Christ to be the firstborn of all God's creatures only to add that error at the very end?

Why would you do that?


You either failed to read what you copied and pasted or you read all of that information with a blindness?

Don't add to the Scriptures and diminish WHO Messiah is.

J.
And then you have the audacity to add this at the end of your post?

Seriously Johann - re-read your post and see what you did there - you added not only the the Word of God but to someone elses commentary!

Blindness can be only explanation

F2F
 

face2face

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Get your doctrines straight, F2F, and restore the Deity of Christ Jesus.
Just for everyone elses benefit this Deity was not Christ's, but God placed the fullness of His Deity in His Glorified Son.

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily Col 2:9.

An exalted glorified Son!

F2F
 
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Johann

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Just for everyone elses benefit this Deity was not Christ's, but God placed the fullness of His Deity in His Glorified Son.

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily Col 2:9.

An exalted glorified Son!

F2F
--yet a created being according to your theology?!

J.
 
J

Johann

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You know what you do when you can't express a truth J? You dump a bunch of text which makes no sense whatsoever and then walk away as if you have proven some point when we both no there is no an ounce of light in that post.

F2F
I can understand when a person remains in a state of being blind as a bat.

Joh_1:1 "In the beginning" This reflects Gen_1:1 and is also used in 1Jn_1:1 as a reference to the incarnation. It is possible that 1 John was a cover letter to the Gospel. Both deal with Gnosticism. Joh_1:1-5 are an affirmation of Jesus Christ's divine pre-existence before creation (cf. Joh_1:15; Joh_8:56-59; Joh_16:28; Joh_17:5; 2Co_8:9; Php_2:6-7; Col_1:17; Heb_1:3; Heb_10:5-9).
The NT is described as
1. a new creation, not marred by the Fall (i.e., Gen_3:15 fulfilled for mankind)
2. a new conquest (Promised Land)
3. a new exodus (fulfilled prophecy)
4. a new Moses (law giver)
5. a new Joshua (cf. Heb_4:8)
6. a new water miracle (cf. Hebrews 3-4)
7. new manna (cf. John 6)
and so many more, especially in Hebrews.
SPECIAL TOPIC: ARCHÇ

"was" (thrice) This is an imperfect tense (cf. Joh_1:1-2; Joh_1:4; Joh_1:10) which focuses on continual existence in past time. This tense is used to show the Logos' pre-existence (cf. Joh_8:57-58; Joh_17:5; Joh_17:24; 2Co_8:9; Col_1:17; Heb_10:5-7). It is contrasted with the aorist tensesof Joh_1:3; Joh_1:6; Joh_1:14.

"the Word" The Greek term logos referred to a message, not just a single word. In this context it is a title which the Greeks used to describe "world reason" and the Hebrews as analogus with "Wisdom." John chose this term to assert that God's Word is both a person and a message. See Contextual Insights, C.

"with God" "With" could be paraphrased "face to face." It depicts intimate fellowship. It also points toward the concept of one divine essence and three personal eternal manifestations (see Special Topic: The Trinity at Joh_14:26). The NT asserts the paradox that Jesus is separate from the Father, but also that He is one with the Father.

"the Word was God" This verb is imperfect tense as in Joh_1:1 a. There is no article (which identifies the subject, see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, p. 66) with Theos, but Theos is placed first in the Greek phrase for emphasis. This verse and Joh_1:18 are strong statements of the full deity of the pre-existent Logos (cf. Joh_5:18; Joh_8:58; Joh_10:30; Joh_14:9; Joh_17:11; Joh_20:28; Rom_9:5; Heb_1:8; 2Pe_1:1). Jesus is fully divine as well as fully human (cf. 1Jn_4:1-3). He is not the same as God the Father, but He is the very same divine essence as the Father.
The NT asserts the full deity of Jesus of Nazareth, but protects the distinct personhood of the Father. The one divine essence is emphasized in Joh_1:1; Joh_5:18; Joh_10:30; Joh_10:34-38; Joh_14:9-10; and Joh_20:28, while their distinctives are emphasized in Joh_1:2; Joh_1:14; Joh_1:18; Joh_5:19-23; Joh_8:28; Joh_10:25; Joh_10:29; Joh_14:11-13; Joh_14:16.
Utley.

J.
 
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Johann

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Just for everyone elses benefit this Deity was not Christ's, but God placed the fullness of His Deity in His Glorified Son.

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily Col 2:9.

An exalted glorified Son!

F2F
Wrong.

1. Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.
ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :

1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.
Col_2:9

A most important verse in understanding Christ's deity.
Full deity dwells in Christ in a bodily way.

For -- Paul is about to show that "Christ" is the antithesis of this false message promoted by the heresy at Colossae.

whole fullness of deity -- The Greek word (theotês) stands here alone in the N.T. It is as strong as possible -- Deity. The very nature of God is fully present in Christ.


dwells bodily -- Jesus Christ is God incarnate; God dwelling among men in the flesh, Immanuel.

dwell -- κατοικέω,katoikeō, G2730; Dwell, settle, inhabit, (not sojourn).


¶ Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, live in him,
Col 2:7 firmly rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding with thankfulness.
Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone take you captive [Literally “anyone be the one who takes captive you”] through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition [Literally “the tradition of men”], according to the elemental spirits of the world and not according to Christ,
Col 2:9 because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,
Col 2:10 and you are filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority,
Col 2:11 in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, by the removal of the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which also you were raised together with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And although you were dead [Literally “and you being dead”] [*Here the participle (“being”) is understood as concessive] in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 having destroyed the certificate of indebtedness in ordinances against us, which was hostile to us, and removed it out of the way by [*Here “by” is supplied as a component of the participle (“nailing”) which is understood as means] nailing it to the cross.

1730120249973.png
Nothing here that God PLACED the fullness of deity-note the Genitive of possession-if you will F2F-IN Him is presently and actively katoikei ALL the-Definite Article-pleroma of the Deity-NOT given-somatikos.

Ah, now I recall-you believe that Christ Jesus was initially just a concept in the mind of YHWH and was later brought into existence as a created being.

J.
 
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Johann

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Can you please substitute "Son" (or "Word" or "Wisdom" or something else) for "Jesus" here, and reserve "Jesus" for the incarnate Son? It sure would help me keep things straight!
Memra.

J.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I think jesus said it well

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Sadly, This is another one of those biblical english issues I know is going on in another thread. but this is a poor translation of this passage into english.

It literally says, Before abraham came into existence (was created) (the greak word ginomai means to become, to exist, to take place. it is in the aorist tensae, which means it is somethign that happened in the past. and continues.. Abraham had a begining,.

When we come to what Jesus said about himself, the words he used are ego eimi - 2 greek words which are translated ego = I or we, and eimi which means to be, to exist, Literally I am, or I came to be or I exist.

when we put the two. it literally can be translated. before abraham I I am, a double positive, which is can be translated. I have always existed.

interestingly enough. When Moses spoke with the burning bush and asked God what his name was, in the septuigint (greek interpretation of the OT) the words used there are the same words jesus used here. I am who I am, or the eternal one, or I have always existed.

Also notice the reaction of the people. they picked up stones to stone him why?

Because in their view. Jesus called himself God. saying he always existed. which was blasphemy.
 

marks

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--this forum is saturated with “strange fire,” and the spiritual pretenses are no longer hiding.

J.
Yes, I've been seeing that. It's an evil fruit of choices made for the forum format.

Much love!
 

APAK

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Spiritual darkness. Seeing eyes made blind.

Much love!
Yes, blind to your gnostic-pagan damming set beliefs of course. And yes, to the spiritual truth and light of the word of God, knowing his Son was certainty created and not a freak show of pagan manipulation and invention that his Father would or even could become a human being.

Your words continue to be void of any Biblical truth and of the influence of Spirit of God. Blindness indeed!
 

marks

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Yes, blind to your gnostic-pagan damming set beliefs of course. And yes, to the spiritual truth and light of the word of God, knowing his Son was certainty created and not a freak show of pagan manipulation and invention that his Father would or even could become a human being.

Your words continue to be void of any Biblical truth and of the influence of Spirit of God. Blindness indeed!
Wisdom is justified by her children.

Much love!
 

marks

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Because in their view. Jesus called himself God. saying he always existed. which was blasphemy.
People say that Jesus never said He was God, however, the Jews would have vehemently disagreed with that. They knew Exactly what Jesus meant by His words.

So nowadays someone who thinks Jesus would be a "freak show" if He were actually God denies that fact, but their denial doesn't change that fact.

I always love that saying, facts don't care about feelings.

"You, a man, make yourself God". Yes, Jesus said it, and they understood it.

Much love!
 
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Eternally Grateful

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People say that Jesus never said He was God, however, the Jews would have vehemently disagreed with that. They knew Exactly what Jesus meant by His words.

So nowadays someone want who thinks Jesus would be a "freak show" if He were actually God denies that fact, but their denial doesn't change that fact.

I always love that saying, facts don't care about feelings.

"You, a man, make yourself God". Yes, Jesus said it, and they understood it.

Much love!
facts don't care about feelings

Love this!! and so true
 

APAK

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Feb 4, 2018
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People say that Jesus never said He was God, however, the Jews would have vehemently disagreed with that. They knew Exactly what Jesus meant by His words.

So nowadays someone who thinks Jesus would be a "freak show" if He were actually God denies that fact, but their denial doesn't change that fact.

I always love that saying, facts don't care about feelings.

"You, a man, make yourself God". Yes, Jesus said it, and they understood it.

Much love!
OK more BS...

The Jews never thought the Son of God was God. Stop with the delusions. They knew that Jesus was speaking for and with God, his Father, who he claimed ands said to them, according to scripture and not your fables.

'Making yourself God' does not mean the speaker/audience actually believed he/Jesus was God at all. What utter nonsense. And you actually believe they thought this? He was equating himself as God's representative, the Son of God, NOT God.

Here's something you might handle marks:...answer this 'simple' event according to scripture

Would Satan have been so determined to destroy the child through his servant Herod, if he had known that it was God Himself who had made Himself into a baby? Did he think that by killing the baby he could destroy God ?

Such a ridiculous notion is completely foreign to the Prophetic Literature, which is radically trivialized by the idea that God meant all along that He would come Himself. Never do we read that a voice thundered down from Mt. Sinai or anywhere else: “Don’t make me come down there!”

What say ye then......? and get real and be inspired by the word....
 
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