The curious case of John 5:4

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St. SteVen

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The first option ungrounds the faith from the historical Jesus. A friend of mine from church did that. He has a "Jesus" that he met in some kind of mystical experience. I'm not sure who his "Jesus" is. I have no way of knowing or relating to that "Jesus".

The second option is less than optimal, speaking as one of Jesus's people.
These things can be very serious.
Many of those who deconstruct became atheist.
Some of my topics on the subject.

Deconstruction, or Reconstruction - Renovating Your Religious Views

Deconstruction is a very scary word to most Christians. Granted, it sound destructive and harmful. When I discovered some deconstructing Christians, I felt as if I was going through a similar process. So, the word didn't bother me too much. I did feel that some of them had taken it too far...

DECONSTRUCTION - How far is too far?
...Here's another video that talks specifically about the process of deconstruction that Sara Martin went through. The question is: Deconstruction; how far is too far? - Should we NEVER question our faith? - Are reasonable questions with biblical answers okay? - Is it okay to ask the really...

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Wick Stick

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Here is one of your answers.

No English version of the Bible is inspired. it is a translation from many different people. all of who will interpret based on their personal biases and convictions.
Go further - no translation is perfect. The act of translating always leaves behind some of the meaning. If you disagree, you've never been a translator.
 

St. SteVen

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Which is more pure?
The Bible, or Ivory Soap? (99.44%) And does it float? - LOL
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Deborah_

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Here's an angle we may have not considered.
The Muslim was claiming that the Bible is corrupted. What about the Qu'ran?

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The Muslim may have assumed that the Bible was created in the same way that they believe the Qur'an was - by direct dictation from God. If you believe that, then the exact wording becomes crucial because any deviation is a deviation from God's word.

(Incidentally, they also believe that the Qur'an has existed from eternity, in Arabic! This is why any translation of the Qur'an isn't the "real" Qur'an, and why all Muslims have to learn classical Arabic in order to read the Qur'an in its original language).
 
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Lambano

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Or perhaps indicating that one thinks that the Christian faith has suffered great corruption over the years in the hands of the Catholic Church.
Which makes this a uniquely Protestant problem.

I understand the historical events that cause the Reformers to distrust their Church leaders and replace that trust with Sola Scriptura. Nature abhors a vacuum, and you gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. But Sola Scriptura logically gave birth to Fundamentalism, which is the root cause of Matthias's student's problem when the infrastructure bearing Sola Scriptura couldn't handle the weight.
 

St. SteVen

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Which makes this a uniquely Protestant problem.

I understand the historical events that cause the Reformers to distrust their Church leaders and replace that trust with Sola Scriptura. Nature abhors a vacuum, and you gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. But Sola Scriptura logically gave birth to Fundamentalism, which is the root cause of Matthias's student's problem when the infrastructure bearing Sola Scriptura couldn't handle the weight.
Wow. You nailed it. Thanks, you two.

[ cc: @Wick Stick
 

Eternally Grateful

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Which makes this a uniquely Protestant problem.

I understand the historical events that cause the Reformers to distrust their Church leaders and replace that trust with Sola Scriptura. Nature abhors a vacuum, and you gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. But Sola Scriptura logically gave birth to Fundamentalism, which is the root cause of Matthias's student's problem when the infrastructure bearing Sola Scriptura couldn't handle the weight.
The problem with this is the word of God is the only thing we are given that we are told is inspired by God. Granted there may be flaws in interpretations. But not so severe that it would defect from the message.

When you take scripture out as the sole test of who speaks truth and who does not. You become men followers. Not God followers.

this problem was around in the NT, it was not new with the reformation, in fact, I think if we could really look deep inside. it happened even during the Roman Empire of the roman church, the only difference is the Roman Empire used the power of rome to strike down any one they deemed to be a heretic. So the apposed would have to go underground, it was not until the power of rome was broken, in which we saw the reformation.

I firmly believe if rome did not lose its power. There would have have been a reformation. It would have been destroyed
 

Wick Stick

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Which makes this a uniquely Protestant problem.
In practice that's mostly true. But it could be the case for anyone whose beliefs follow the conservative idea that older-is-better and original-is-best.
I understand the historical events that cause the Reformers to distrust their Church leaders and replace that trust with Sola Scriptura. Nature abhors a vacuum, and you gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. But Sola Scriptura logically gave birth to Fundamentalism, which is the root cause of Matthias's student's problem when the infrastructure bearing Sola Scriptura couldn't handle the weight.
The first generation Reformers didn't do that. They had five solae that co-existed, and they wanted mostly wanted preserve the authority of the church... just not the pope. It was their followers 3 or 4 generations later that mis-understood or re-interpreted what they wrote to give us the current state of things.
 

GodsGrace

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The thing I haven't seen much on this topic yet, is admitting that the Muslim was right.
Everyone assumes he was wrong, because he was a Muslim.

He successfully destroyed the thing too many Christians idolize. And they are here
on this topic trying to glue this shattered object of worship back together.

- What happens if we tell the student that the Muslim was wrong?
- What happens if we tell the student that the Muslim was right?
- Which is easier to live with? The delusion, or the truth?

The student was victim to a grand betrayal. Will you protect the betrayer?

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Oh,,, I think I missed the Muslim post or I can't remember it.
I gather the Muslim person destroyed the bible.
Interesting, since the Qu'ran is currently under inspection from non-other than Muslim theologians...
Islam is also being questioned - as to who wrote the pages and when.

I'd just tell the student that his faith is based on reason and that there's no problem since God HIMSELF did not write the bible.
I'd tell him that we're supposed to be worshipping God and not the bible.

Anything man puts his hands to will be flawed...
man wrote the bible...
so, there's a good chance some flaws will eventually show up.

I think I tagged you into an important question that goes to this very topic...
WHY do YOU have faith?
What is YOUR faith based on?

I think all we could do is tell the student why I believe.
If it's based on something reasonable, he might just listen.
 
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GodsGrace

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Or perhaps indicating that one thinks that the Christian faith has suffered great corruption over the years in the hands of the Catholic Church.
Not specifically answering to the above re the CC.

Just want to say that I don't believe Catholics have the problem that the OP is presenting regarding the questioning student.
Catholics do not believe all of the bible is literal....
It's actually easier for them to explain away some verses that make little or no sense to us...
and so,,,no problem for the student.
 
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St. SteVen

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How to have faith when certainty is no longer viable.

This is why I tagged you; you've been through this. I need your help here.
I just remembered having written about this from my own perspective.

"Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?"


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J

Johann

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"Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?"
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." — Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)

Eph_2:5; Eph_2:8 "by grace you have been saved" This is a Perfect passive periphrastic participle, repeated in Eph_2:8 for emphasis. This meant that believers have been saved in the past, by an outside agent, with abiding results; "they have been and continue to be saved by God." This same construction is repeated in Eph_2:8 for emphasis. See Special Topic at Eph_1:7.
This is one of the biblical passages which forms the basis for the doctrine of the security of the believer (cf. Joh_6:37; Joh_6:39; Joh_10:28; Joh_17:2; Joh_17:24; Joh_18:9; Rom_8:31-39). Like all biblical doctrines, it must be balanced (held in tension) with other truths and texts.
Through faith (dia pisteōs). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in Eph_2:5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours.
And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.

through faith -- Mankind must respond to God's offer of grace and forgiveness in Christ (cf. Joh_1:12; Joh_3:16-17; Joh_3:36; Joh_6:40; Joh_11:25-26; Rom_10:9-13), and this is done through a faith that "trusts and obeys." Salvation by faith means we trust in God's trustworthy promises and yeild oursleves to him as our Lord, which means then that we keep is commandments. (John 14;15; 1Jn_5:3; 2Jn_1:6)

and that -- This is the Greek demonstrative pronoun (touto), which is neuter in gender. The closest nouns, "grace" and "faith," are both feminine in gender. Therefore, this must refer to the whole process of salvation as completed in Christ. (Utley)
“That” refers to the entire previous statement of salvation. FSB

not of yourselves -- This is the first of three phrases which clearly show that salvation is not based on human performance: (1) "not of yourselves" Eph_2:8; (2) "gift of God" Eph_2:8; and (3) "not as a result of works (either OT works or one's own merit) " Eph_2:9.

gift -- Also see Heb_6:4 -- Heavenly gifts -- forgivness of sins, salvaion. The paradox of salvation as both a free gift and a mandated covenant response are difficult to grasp. Yet both are true! Salvation is truly free, yet costs everything. (Utley).
tc The feminine article is found before πίστεως (pisteōs, “faith”) in the Byzantine text as well as in A Ψ 1241 1881 al. Perhaps for some scribes the article was intended to imply creedal fidelity as a necessary condition of salvation (“you are saved through the faith”), although elsewhere in the corpus Paulinum the phrase διὰ τῆς πίστεως (dia tēs pisteōs) is used for the act of believing rather than the content of faith (cf. Rom 3:30, 31; Gal 3:14; Eph 3:17; Col 2:12). On the other side, strong representatives of the Alexandrian and Western texts (א B D* F G P 0278 6 33 1175 1505 1739 al bo) lack the article. Without the article, the meaning of the text is most likely “saved through faith” as opposed to “saved through the faith.” On both internal and external grounds the anarthrous wording is preferred.
tn Or “not as a result of.”
tn Grk “lest anyone should boast.”
tn Grk “so that we might walk in them” (or “by them”).
sn So that we may do them. Before the devil began to control our walk in sin and among sinful people, God had already planned good works for us to do.

Of course I don't support the Alexandrian texts.


J.
 
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St. SteVen

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How to have faith when certainty is no longer viable.
I'm realizing that I have been living with this for so long that your question didn't even register with me. - LOL

I shared what we were talking about on this topic with my wife and she immediately marginalized me. (sigh)
So I chided her with, "Oh, so I'm the only one?" The topic was a "So what?" to her.

I have to live this INSIDER/OUTSIDER life in order to stay plugged into the church. (for what it's worth)
I laugh at terms like "heretic" and "excommunicated". Topic

This topic seemed to be about how we could "fix" our poor disillusioned student.

Which strikes me as a Band-Aid solution. A bandage on a malignant cancer.
As I wrote earlier, John 5:4 isn't the end of it, it's just the beginning.
Any intelligent person will keep track of these things and reach a tipping point when they have to
face their cognitive dissonance. Which we all live with. I have mine, you have yours.

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St. SteVen

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... Sola Scriptura logically gave birth to Fundamentalism, which is the root cause of Matthias's student's problem when the infrastructure bearing Sola Scriptura couldn't handle the weight.
I think this is a critical point. Understanding where Fundamentalism came from.
Most Fundamentalists assume that Fundamentalism was the faith of the Apostles.
And they have the "Proof-Texts" to prove it. - LOL

Certainly the faith of the Apostles preceded what became the RCC. Which had its own set of problems.
Which led to the Protestant Reformation.

But like most things, the pendulum swings too far away from the problem in an attempt to fix it.

I rather like the tricycle example given by Richard Rohr and others. (?)

The front wheel (steering/drive) is our personal experience with God.
The rear wheels bring stability through scripture and church tradition.


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Your personal experience with God is something that cannot be taken away from you.
Unless you let some idiot talk you out of it. (and they will try) Therefore, it is critical that we seek/follow
our own personal experience with God to create a legacy to encourage others in the faith.

Revelation 12:11 NIV
They triumphed over him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.

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