Were Jesus's brothers born of another woman?

[LuxMundy]

You offered for my consideration (in this post and the two that followed) nothing more than the RCC party line.

The RCC began with the establishment of orthodoxy in the 4th century.

Incorrect. Firstly, there absolutely was a Church of Rome in the first century—evangelized by Peter and Paul. What there wasn't was all of the Protestant or quasi-Christian sects.

Secondly, the Christian (Catholic) Church is NOT called the "Roman" Catholic Church. It is called the Catholic Church. Roman or Latin simply refers to the Liturgical Rite, and there are over 20 of those.

The Church built by Jesus Christ and established by the twelve apostles was called the “Catholic Church” by the end of the first century— some 1400 years before anybody ever heard of a “Protestant”. This is the same Church that gave you the Bible...

Ignatius of Antioch was an Apostolic Father who was a lifelong student of the Apostle John. He succeeded the See of Antioch from Peter, who ordained him. He wrote the following on the way to his execution while John was presumably still alive:

"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church". (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107])

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way—small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world—the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath". (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 150]).

Irenaeus
"The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said". (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189])

Tertullian
"For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled". (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D. 200])

Cyprian
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation". (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251])

Even if you reject Irenaeus's 2nd century work, Against Heresies, which includes a list of Popes from Peter to his own time, Pope Victor 1 decided the Quartodeciman controversy for the whole Church in the 2nd century.

In the 3rd century, Tertullian wrote, Di Pudicitia, in which he addresses Pope Callistus as "Pontifex Maximus" and "Bishop of Bishops".

Three examples of the Papacy before your timeline of the 4th century...

 

[Matthias]

Incorrect.

Just one more assertion that you cannot be wrong when you are wrong.

Firstly, there absolutely was a Church of Rome in the first century—evangelized by Peter and Paul. What there wasn't was all of the Protestant or quasi-Christian sects.

I agree.

Secondly, the Christian (Catholic) Church is NOT called the "Roman" Catholic Church. It is called the Catholic Church. Roman or Latin simply refers to the Liturgical Rite, and there are over 20 of those.

It’s simply called the Church or the Church of God in scripture.

The Church built by Jesus Christ and established by the twelve apostles was called the “Catholic Church” by the end of the first century— some 1400 years before anybody ever heard of a “Protestant”. This is the same Church that gave you the Bible...

I’ve already dealt with the Protestants. Protestantism is nothing more a reformation movement.

Ignatius of Antioch was an Apostolic Father who was a lifelong student of the Apostle John. He succeeded the See of Antioch from Peter, who ordained him. He wrote the following on the way to his execution while John was presumably still alive:

"Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church". (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 107])

I re-read Ignatius last year. (I read and re-read most of the Ante Nicene Church Fathers last year.) His writing has been tampered with.

 

[LuxMundy]

(I read and re-read most of the Ante Nicene Church Fathers last year.) His writing has been tampered with.

You supposedly read them. And Ignatius of Antioch's writings were allegedly tampered with by who? When? What was changed?

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way—small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world—the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath". (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 150]).

Irenaeus
"The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said". (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189])

Tertullian
"For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled". (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D. 200])

Cyprian
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation". (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251])

Even if you reject Irenaeus's 2nd century work, Against Heresies, which includes a list of Popes from Peter to his own time, Pope Victor 1 decided the Quartodeciman controversy for the whole Church in the 2nd century.

In the 3rd century, Tertullian wrote, Di Pudicitia, in which he addresses Pope Callistus as "Pontifex Maximus" and "Bishop of Bishops".

Three examples of the Papacy before your timeline of the 4th century...

 

[RedFan]

I re-read Ignatius last year. (I read and re-read most of the Ante Nicene Church Fathers last year.) His writing has been tampered with.

Interesting. How?

 

[Matthias]

Tampered by who? When? What was changed?

Read his writings, compare the extant versions of what he wrote, and it‘s obvious that it is tampered with. Who tampered with it? I don’t know.

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way—small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world—the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath". (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 150]).

Irenaeus
"The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said". (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189])

Tertullian
"For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled". (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D. 200])

Cyprian
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation". (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251])

Even if you reject Irenaeus's 2nd century work, Against Heresies, which includes a list of Popes from Peter to his own time, Pope Victor 1 decided the Quartodeciman controversy for the whole Church in the 2nd century.

In the 3rd century, Tertullian wrote, Di Pudicitia, in which he addresses Pope Callistus as "Pontifex Maximus" and "Bishop of Bishops".

Three examples of the Papacy before your timeline of the 4th century...

Those aren’t examples of the Papacy. Those are examples that there was at Church at Rome. There was a long struggle before the Bishop of Rome finally gained supremacy over Bishops in other major cities.

 

[Matthias]

Interesting. How?

By comparing and contrasting extant copies of his writings.

***

What if I sent you a letter that, let’s say, contains 15 paragraphs.

Now what if someone years later finds a copy of that very same letter that contains, let’s say, 25 paragraphs.

They have in their hands a letter that I wrote to you with 15 paragraphs and the very same letter I wrote to you with 25 paragraphs. Has the letter not been tampered with by someone?

P.S.

What if they saw that what I wrote to you originally was expanded by someone to include items which came about later than my day in the historical timeline?

 

[LuxMundy]

Read his writings, compare the extant versions of what he wrote, and it‘s obvious that it is tampered with.

No, you need to follow through and show all the alleged versions.

Those aren’t examples of the Papacy.

Pope Victor 1 decided the Quartodeciman controversy for the whole Church in the 2nd century. In the 3rd century, Tertullian wrote, Di Pudicitia, in which he addresses Pope Callistus as "Pontifex Maximus" and "Bishop of Bishops". Three examples of the Papacy before your timeline of the 4th century...

There's also the following written about the Catholic Church before the 4th century....

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way—small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world—the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath". (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 150]).

Irenaeus
"The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said". (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189])

Tertullian
"For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled". (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D. 200])

Cyprian
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation". (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251])

 

[RedFan]

By comparing and contrasting extant copies of his writings.

***

What if I sent you a letter that, let’s say, contains 15 paragraphs.

Now what if someone years later finds a copy of that very same letter that contains, let’s say, 25 paragraphs.

They have in their hands a letter that I wrote to you with 15 paragraphs and the very same letter I wrote to you with 25 paragraphs. Has the letter not been tampered with by someone?

P.S.

What if they saw that what I wrote to you originally was expanded by someone to include items which came about later than my day in the historical timeline?

I meant can you show me the alterations in Ignatius's writings? Which words were tampered with?

 

[Matthias]

No, you need to follow through and show all the alleged versions.

See his letters in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson.

An excellent example is found in his Epistle to Polycarp. The short version and Long version is set side by side om pages 93 - 96.

Pope Victor 1 decided the Quartodeciman controversy for the whole Church in the 2nd century. In the 3rd century, Tertullian wrote, Di Pudicitia, in which he addresses Pope Callistus as "Pontifex Maximus" and "Bishop of Bishops". Three examples of the Papacy before your timeline of the 4th century...

There's also the following written about the Catholic Church before the 4th century....

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way—small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world—the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath". (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 150]).

Irenaeus
"The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said". (Against Heresies 1:10 [A.D. 189])

Tertullian
"For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled". (On the Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 [A.D. 200])

Cyprian
"He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation". (On the Unity of the Catholic Church 6 [A.D. 251])

 

[Matthias]

I meant can you show me the alterations in Ignatius's writings?

Yes, of course. Do you own or have access to a copy of the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

Which words were tampered with?

The side by side comparison of the long and short version of the Epistle to Polycarp shows / documents which words were not present in the short version, added by someone in the longer version.

 

[Matthias]

I haven’t compared this with the long and short version of the letter as it is translated / presented in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, edited by Roberts and Donaldson but here is a link to the long and short versions @RedFan.

Loading…

www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu

It’s a little more difficult to compare them in this format but you can do it. Just the mere fact that there is a long version and a short version of the same letter should be sufficient to demonstrate that the letter has been tampered with by someone.

 

[Matthias]

Church history documents the presence of many different forms of Christianity which existed prior to the establishment of orthodoxy in the fourth century. The post-biblical development of doctrine is very well known and documented. Roman Catholic scholars are particularly good in this area.

I’ve posted some marvelous quotes on the subject, in various threads on the forum, by Harold O.J Brown, a Protestant scholar. As I said in those threads, Dr. Brown was hard core orthodox in his theology. The Councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon are bedrock for him.

His concessions on the first three centuries should be widely read. While his theology and mine are incompatible, I highly recommend his book Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church to all.

 

[RedFan]

Yes, of course. Do you own or have access to a copy of the Ante-Nicene Fathers?

I have it open in front of me.

The side by side comparison of the long and short version of the Epistle to Polycarp shows / documents which words were not present in the short version, added by someone in the longer version.

I cannot tell from the comparison whether the longer version adds to the original, or the shorter version edited the original. For example, Chapter I adds "even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture}, 'He Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.'" (Both versions are otherwise identical.) An addition by a later scribe, or Ignatius's original words removed by a later scribe? I'm tempted to consider the shorter version authentic, but I don't know.

 

[Matthias]

I have it open in front of me.


I cannot tell from the comparison whether the longer version adds to the original, or the shorter version edited the original. For example, Chapter I adds "even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture}, 'He Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.'" (Both versions are otherwise identical.) An addition by a later scribe, or Ignatius's original words removed by a later scribe? I'm tempted to consider the shorter version authentic, but I don't know.

In some paragraphs it is minor, in other paragraphs it is major.

There are also a number of epistles of Ignatius that are identified as spurious contained in The Ante-Nicene Fathers. That in no way disparages Ignatius but it does point to forgeries by someone.

 

[LuxMundy]

See his letters in Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, edited by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson.

An excellent example is found in his Epistle to Polycarp. The short version and Long version is set side by side om pages 93 - 96.

"Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immoveable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face, which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit. Have a regard to preserve unity, than which nothing is better. Bear with all, even as the Lord does with thee. Support all in love, as also thou doest. Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. Implore additional understanding to what thou already hast. Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit. Speak to every man separately, as God enables thee. Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

"Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immoveable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy to behold thy blameless face, which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit. Have a regard to preserve unity, than which nothing is better. Bear with all even as the Lord does with thee. Support all in love, as also thou doest. Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. Implore additional understanding to what thou already hast. Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit. Speak to every man separately, as God enables thee. Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life], even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture], “He Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” Where the labour is great, the gain
is all the more."

The following same sections from each version above differ slightly but not in a way that changes what's being said. It's just one includes "even as does the Lord of all" and a scriptural verse:

"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life], even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture], “He Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” Where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

So, no, there's no indication of someone else tampering with Ignatius's writings here.

 

[RedFan]

In some paragraphs it is minor, in other paragraphs it is major.

There are also a number of epistles of Ignatius that are identified as spurious contained in The Ante-Nicene Fathers. That in no way disparages Ignatius but it does point to forgeries by someone.

Michael Holmes' Introduction to Ignatius's letters in The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations has a decent explanation at pp. 171-173. He is of the view that we can identify the authentic Ignatian letters as the middle recension of three versions, not two. (My Greek isn't good enough to pick up his nuances, but good enough to see that his translation is superior to Roberts and Donaldson, if both translators were working from the same Greek text. Holmes is a must for Greek scholars, since it lays out the text in both languages side by side.)

 

[Matthias]

"Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immoveable rock, I loudly
glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face, which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit. Have a regard to preserve unity, than which nothing is better. Bear with all, even as the Lord does with thee. Support all in love, as also thou doest. Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. Implore additional understanding to what thou already hast. Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit. Speak to every man separately, as God enables thee. Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

"Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immoveable rock, I loudly
glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy to behold thy blameless face, which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit. Have a regard to preserve unity, than which nothing is better. Bear with all even as the Lord does with thee. Support all in love, as also thou doest. Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. Implore additional understanding to what thou already hast. Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit. Speak to every man separately, as God enables thee. Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life], even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture], “He Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” Where the labour is great, the gain
is all the more."

The two versions say the same thing. The following same sections from each version differ slightly but not in a way that changes what's being said. It's just one includes "even as does the Lord of all" and a scriptural verse:

"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

"Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life], even as does the Lord of all. For says [the Scripture], “He Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.” Where the labour is great, the gain is all the more."

So, no, there's no indication of someone else tampering with Ignatius's writings.

The long version and the short version don’t say the same thing. There are major differences between them.

If they were identical there would be no long version and short version. There would just be the letter.

Much has been added to the long version.

Will you make the same assertion about the spurious letters?

 

[LuxMundy]

The long version and the short version don’t say the same thing. There are major differences between them.

If they were identical there would be no long version and short version. There would just be the letter.

I quoted both of them did I not? What major differences??

 

[Matthias]

I quoted both of them did I not? What major differences??

I’m looking at it right now in The Ante Nicene Fathers and there are major differences. The lengths / gaps are quite pronounced and obvious.

 

[LuxMundy]

I’m looking at it right now in The Ante Nicene Fathers and there are major differences. The lengths / gaps are quite pronounced and obvious.

Did I not quote both versions in full in post #315?